The inspiration of 2 Maccabees

[Michael96]

I recently read “Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger”, by Gary Michuta. I found it very compelling, and I am considering the possibility that the Deuterocanonicals are inspired Scripture.

However, I am having some difficulty with the following passage:

“So these things being done with relation to Nicanor, and from that time the city being possessed by the Hebrews, I also will here make an end of my narration. Which if I have done well, and as it becometh the history, it is what I desired: but if not so perfectly, it must be pardoned me.” (2 Maccabees 15:38-39)

It appears here that the author of 2 Maccabees suggests that his own book may be in error, which certainly would be impossible if 2 Maccabees is fully inspired Scripture.

Can you give me any assistance concerning this verse?

Thank you!

2 Maccabees is a very different book from 1 Maccabees - it is much more dramatic in its narrative, and I doubt it is supposed to be taken as a literal history book (some of the episodes are rather incredible and seem to include a large amount of hyperbole). I think the author is probably referring to this dramatic rendering of history in his summing up.

 

[Michael96]

P.S. I do have to admit to always feeling uncomfortable reading 2 Maccabees as it is so melodramatic. Can anyone read about the death of Razis (Chapter 14, verses 37-46) and think this is historical? I’m not saying it must be read as historical, but this book is the one that always feel out of place to me. To be honest I can see why people didn’t take it seriously as an inspired book. Even my Catholic Truth Society (publishers to the Holy See) Bible introductory notes describe it as a “propaganda” book - aimed at entertaining and giving i’s Jewish readers something to cheer at. Though at least the preface also makes it clear that it makes no claim to historical accuracy but aims at providing a diversion for those who like to read (2 Maccabees 2: 25-28).

I trust we have lessons to be learned from 2 Maccabees but I think we must be very careful how it is used as it is a book like no other in the Bible.

 

[David_Zampino]

Joseph,

Have you considered that the author of 2 Maccabees may not be conceding error in the sense of wrong history, but in the personal sense of simply narrating poorly? On my reading of the verse, this seems to be the case. Actually, it seems to be most likely a sort of well mannered humility of an author set to a great task.-Peter

A very reasonable (and likely correct) explanation. The unknown author of II Maccabees was abridging a much longer work (now lost to us). From II Maccabees, chapter 2:

The story of Judas Maccabeus and his brothers, and the purification of the great temple, and the dedication of the altar, and further the wars against Antiochus Epiphanes and his son Eupator, and the appearances which came from heaven to those who strove zealously on behalf of Judaism, so that though few in number they seized the whole land and pursued the barbarian hordes, and recovered the temple famous throughout the world and freed the city and restored the laws that were about to be abolished, while the Lord with great kindness became gracious to them – all this, which has been set forth by Jason of Cyrene in five volumes, we shall attempt to condense into a single book.

I read the author’s “footnote” if you will, not as a question of inspiration but rather as a note of humility, abridging 5 volumes into one short story.

 

[David_Zampino]

In one of the gospels (can’t remember which one right now), Jesus says that the mustard seed is the smallest of seeds. Scientifically, this is not accurate. There are seeds smaller than mustard seeds. I don’t think we should be skeptical of this gospel because of the inaccuracy, why should we be skeptical of other books due to historical/scientific inaccuracies?

EXACTLY!!! Jesus was using a figure of speech which would have been easily understood by his listeners. He was hardly promulgating a scientific treatise on comparative seed sizes!

 

[Michael96]

Joseph,

Have you considered that the author of 2 Maccabees may not be conceding error in the sense of wrong history, but in the personal sense of simply narrating poorly?

No, I think the preface in the book itself (2 Maccabees 2: 25-28) makes it clear that the author does not consider his book to be historically accurate.

 

[Returnee]

I recently read “Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger”, by Gary Michuta. I found it very compelling, and I am considering the possibility that the Deuterocanonicals are inspired Scripture.

However, I am having some difficulty with the following passage:

“So these things being done with relation to Nicanor, and from that time the city being possessed by the Hebrews, I also will here make an end of my narration. Which if I have done well, and as it becometh the history, it is what I desired: but if not so perfectly, it must be pardoned me.” (2 Maccabees 15:38-39)

It appears here that the author of 2 Maccabees suggests that his own book may be in error, which certainly would be impossible if 2 Maccabees is fully inspired Scripture.

Can you give me any assistance concerning this verse?

Thank you!

I think PJY86 has the right idea upthread, but an even more general way of looking at this passage is even more “comforting”, I believe.

If we remember that the authors of scripture were human beings, that is, the “thing” that literally picked up a pen and used that pen to write letters/words were human beings, then this entry becomes clear. IMO

When the author was actually writing this passage, he was actually saying, “I hope I didn’t make any mistakes! If I did, then they are mine, not anyone else’s!”

IOW, it would be just like if I had written something, and then at the end, wrote, “I hope there aren’t any mistakes in this! If so, I apologize!”

By simply writing those two sentences doesn’t make what I wrote automatically “wrong”. In fact, if what I wrote WAS correct, then the fact that it is correct isn’t changed by my display of humility at the end of the work.

Similarly for the author of 2 Macc. Just because he wrote, “I hope what I wrote isn’t wrong” doesn’t mean that what he wrote IS wrong. It just means he was humble.

Also, returning to the point that all of Scripture has as its physical origin, men: When all the men who wrote Scripture were writing it, none of them were having some kind of “revelation” from God telling them that they were writing the words of God (except for of course the Book of Revelation. Other than that, I don’t know of any book that claims to be words from God Himself, that is, the claim of Scripture occurs in the same book.)

To each writer, as far as he was concerned, he was writting a letter (as with St. Paul) or a record of an event (as with the Gospels, or the OT accounts of Moses, or historical accounts as in 2 Macc, etc).

It wasn’t until later that these writings were considered Scripture. Thus, to find in Scripture evidence of the humility of its human author is hardly damaging.

 

[Returnee]

No, I think the preface in the book itself (2 Maccabees 2: 25-28) makes it clear that the author does not consider his book to be historically accurate.

I’m not sure if it’s correct to say the author doubts the “accuracy” of 2 Macc, but perhaps the “detail” of it is rather “brief”. Given 2 Macc 2:25-28:

{2:25} For, considering the multitude of the books, and the difficulty that those who are willing to undertake the narrations of histories find, due to the multitude of events,
{2:26} we have taken care, so that, indeed, those who are willing to read may have delights of the mind, and so that, in truth, the studious may more easily be able to commit it to memory, and also so that all readers may find it useful.
{2:27} And indeed, we ourselves, who have taken up the task of abridging this work, have no easy labor. For, in truth, more correctly, we have assumed an activity full of vigilance and sweat.
{2:28} Just as those who prepare a feast also seek to be attentive to the will of others, for the sake of the gratitude of many, we willingly undertake the labor.

It seems there is a desire to condense history in 2 Macc, but there doesn’t seem to be any doubt the information is still “accurate” though.

IMO.

 

[Michael96]

I’m not sure if it’s correct to say the author doubts the “accuracy” of 2 Macc, but perhaps the “detail” of it is rather “brief”. Given 2 Macc 2:25-28:

{2:25} For, considering the multitude of the books, and the difficulty that those who are willing to undertake the narrations of histories find, due to the multitude of events,
{2:26} we have taken care, so that, indeed, those who are willing to read may have delights of the mind, and so that, in truth, the studious may more easily be able to commit it to memory, and also so that all readers may find it useful.
{2:27} And indeed, we ourselves, who have taken up the task of abridging this work, have no easy labor. For, in truth, more correctly, we have assumed an activity full of vigilance and sweat.
{2:28} Just as those who prepare a feast also seek to be attentive to the will of others, for the sake of the gratitude of many, we willingly undertake the labor.

It seems there is a desire to condense history in 2 Macc, but there doesn’t seem to be any doubt the information is still “accurate” though.

IMO.

Ah, that’s interesting - my (CTS) version seems to have a difference in verse numbering. My verse 28, I think, will be your verse 29. My verse 28 says “leaving accuracy of detail to the historian and concentrating our effort on the outlines in this condensed version”.

But I would also say that the death of Razi epitomizes the rather overly-dramatic narrative used in this book - this is a guy who tried to kill himself by first trying to kill himself with his sword (and seemingly missed) before throwing himself off a tower (which also failed to kill him) before finally pulling out his own entrails to fling at the opposing troups.

This is a strange book when read complete, and to me always seems particularly odd when read straight after the very dry (and dare I say very boring?) and mundane accounts given in 1 Maccabees .

 

[Returnee]

Ah, that’s interesting - my (CTS) version seems to have a difference in verse numbering. My verse 28, I think, will be your verse 29. My verse 28 says “leaving accuracy of detail to the historian and concentrating our effort on the outlines in this condensed version”.

But I would also say that the death of Razi epitomizes the rather overly-dramatic narrative used in this book - this is a guy who tried to kill himself by first trying to kill himself with his sword (and seemingly missed) before throwing himself off a tower (which also failed to kill him) before finally pulling out his own entrails to fling at the opposing troups.

This is a strange book when read complete, and to me always seems particularly odd when read straight after the very dry (and dare I say very boring?) and mundane accounts given in 1 Maccabees .

The version I quoted from has for verse 29, “Indeed, leaving to the authors the truths about particular details, we instead have been devoted to this form, striving to be brief.”, which is similar to yours I believe.

So, again, I think it’s reasonable to conclude that verses 25-28 (26-29) say that the author is striving to be as accurate as possible, but yet the details of history he leaves for other authors.

That is, simply because he leaves some details out doesn’t mean the accuracy is comprimised. It just means it’s not an attempt at exaustive history.

 

[holy_moly]

My guess is that the author of 2 Maccabees didn’t know that he was writing Scripture. I believe St. Paul, in one of his epistles says something similarly self-deprecating.

Are you sure? Or did they know that what they were writing was inspired

 

[Spirithound]

Are you sure? Or did they know that what they were writing was inspired

Not at all sure. But it is the direction I lean.

 

[holy_moly]

Not at all sure. But it is the direction I lean.

Makes sense to me to.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I recently read “Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger”, by Gary Michuta. I found it very compelling, and I am considering the possibility that the Deuterocanonicals are inspired Scripture.

However, I am having some difficulty with the following passage:

“So these things being done with relation to Nicanor, and from that time the city being possessed by the Hebrews, I also will here make an end of my narration. Which if I have done well, and as it becometh the history, it is what I desired: but if not so perfectly, it must be pardoned me.” (2 Maccabees 15:38-39)

It appears here that the author of 2 Maccabees suggests that his own book may be in error, which certainly would be impossible if 2 Maccabees is fully inspired Scripture.

Can you give me any assistance concerning this verse?

Thank you!

I"m Catholic, ex-Protestant, so I accept the Catholic Bible. However I will say this much - whenever I read the Deuterocanonical books, I don’t quite get the same feeling of spirituality as with the others. It may just be me, but that’s the sense I get.

The Maccabees books for example are violent. History maybe, but full of violence. And there seems to be a lack of prophetic commentary associated with the book.

 

[ababbidg]

I"m Catholic, ex-Protestant, so I accept the Catholic Bible. However I will say this much - whenever I read the Deuterocanonical books, I don’t quite get the same feeling of spirituality as with the others. It may just be me, but that’s the sense I get.

The Maccabees books for example are violent. History maybe, but full of violence. And there seems to be a lack of prophetic commentary associated with the book.

Feelings are not necessarily important to whether or not a book is inspired scripture or not. I just read Leviticus, and for the most part it was VERY boring and dull. I would never question whether or not it is inspired though.

 

[PJM]

JosephGleasonI recently read “Why Catholic Bibles are Bigger”, by Gary Michuta. I found it very compelling, and I am considering the possibility that the Deuterocanonicals are inspired Scripture.

However, I am having some difficulty with the following passage:

“So these things being done with relation to Nicanor, and from that time the city being possessed by the Hebrews, I also will here make an end of my narration. Which if I have done well, and as it becometh the history, it is what I desired: but if not so perfectly, it must be pardoned me.” (2 Maccabees 15:38-39)

It appears here that the author of 2 Maccabees suggests that his own book may be in error, which certainly would be impossible if 2 Maccabees is fully inspired Scripture.

***First one must use extreme prudent caution in any attempt of self bible interpetiation. The fact that this is a commom practice outside of the Catholic Church is precisely why in a realatively short period their has been a explosion of non-Catholic Churches, that number high in the thousands. Jesus promised only ONR truth and it by HIS desire resides in His Catholic Church.

Your inquirey is prudent. Thank you!

37 This, then, is how matters turned out with Nicanor. And from that time the city has been in the possession of the Hebrews. So I too will here end my story. 38 If it is well told and to the point, that is what I myself desired; if it is poorly done and mediocre, that was the best I could do. 39 For just as it is harmful to drink wine alone, or, again, to drink water alone, while wine mixed with water is sweet and delicious and enhances one’s enjoyment, so also the style of the story delights the ears of those who read the work. And here will be the end.***

Haydocks Catholic Comentary

Ver. 39. So. Greek, “if in a frugal and middling style, this is as well as I was able.” This is not said with regard to the truth of the narration, but with regard to the style and manner of writing, which in the sacred penmen is not always the most accurate. See St. Paul, 2 Corinthians xi. 6.The style was frequently left to the choice — Inspiration did not exclude natural acquirements.The author is not afraid of having said any thing erroneous, though he might be less polished, like St. Paul: imperitus sermone sed non scientia. But we, having now come to the end of the Old Testament, must crave pardon for any mistakes into which we may have fallen, in the execution of this work, which is dedicated to the English (Worthington) and to all his majesty’s Catholic subjects, for whose benefit chiefly and for the sake of religion it has been undertaken. The many things hard to understood, [2 Peter iii. 16.] which we did not wish to pass over, have swelled this work to a larger volume than was at first intended; larger, perhaps, than the purses of the poor and middle ranks, in the late hard times, could bear. But now the prospect is more cheering; and it is hoped that this profusion on a subject of such vast importance will be pardoned, particularly as we had also to comply with the desires of the more affluent, who repeatedly requested that the notes might be rather “more ample.” As they that prepare a feast, and seek to satisfy the will of others, so we, for the sake of many, willingly undergo the labour, chap. ii. 28. The variety of matter and of style may well be compared to a mixture of wine and water, ver. 40

Ver. 40. Always. Greek, "only."Readers delight in variety. A middle style is adopted. (Calmet) — But. Greek, “But as wine mixed with water is pleasant, and affords delight, so the preparation (or style) of a discourse pleases the ears of those who read what is collected. But here shall be an end.”

Love and prayers