The Intellect and Heartbreaking Animal Mourning Rituals

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Utter nonsense! This is what happens when people humanize animals! Just like some people have a dog or a cat unstead of a child…
Bad science and bad morality.
 
The implied argument seems to be that animals are persons because they experience emotions.

Which says a lot about how the article defines personhood.
 
I did not get the impression that the article was arguing for the personhood of animals. Just stating that they have emotions. Which is true, up to a point. I don’t see how this would link in to either intelligence or personhood, and I didn’t see the article saying that it did.
 
Can someone please tell me how one can argue animal intellect after reading this article on animal grief? pawnation.com/2012/07/31/10-heartbreaking-animal-mourning-rituals/?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl9%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D186413
You can’t. God created all creatures including man. It is arrogant, and ignorance not think God would create creatures without love. Our pets I believe are special gifts they give love unconditionaly giving us comfort and showing us by example how we ought to be the same. I have cats, I have seen them in discomfort, embarrassed and needy.

I am not ashamed to love animals, God asked us to be stewards not masters over the earth. There is no argument but excuses for cruelty. Everything we love, touch or eat comes from God and should be respected an honoured for it’s place in life.
 
The implied argument seems to be that animals are persons because they experience emotions.

Which says a lot about how the article defines personhood.
👍

These are the damaging effects that result from decades of teaching students that the theory of evolutions is some kind of scientific fact.

The reality that animals and human beings have souls that are fundamentally different in nature and that God assigned radically different value to animal and human life is something that is just completely not taught in today’s society.
 
Can someone please tell me how one can argue animal intellect after reading this article on animal grief? pawnation.com/2012/07/31/10-heartbreaking-animal-mourning-rituals/?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl9%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D186413
Animals clearly have (differing degrees of) intelligence. Not only do we have clear examples of animals having emotional responses, we also have examples of them dreaming, planning, using tools, and even fabricating tools.

That said, the issue in Catholic teaching is, IIRC, not about animals lacking intelligence and certainly not about them being somehow immune to suffering, but about them having a different kind of soul.
 
There is no reason to suppose that other animals lack emotion. Emotion is quite a primitive feature, certainly prior to reason or intellect, and fundamental emotions such as fear and attachment are often essential for survival. We see this even in human development from infancy through to adulthood. Emotion is what prompts many behaviours in animals, from the most basic to the more complex, including the fact that elephants, for example, have been observed to mourn their dead fellows.

The idea that other animals lack emotion or intellect, that they don’t qualify for personhood, has primarily been used as an excuse for humans to abuse them and exploit them without feeling guilt for harming a “person” or a being of any importance.

But anyone who has ever kept companion animals or spent any time at all around other animals could not fail to notice the distinctive signs of sentience, emotion and intelligence. Evolution (which is actually a fact, by the way; the ‘theory’ part comes into play in discerning how it happened - that it happened has been in no doubt amongst biologists, even before Darwin) establishes beyond any reasonable doubt that we are fundamentally related to all other living things, and most closely to other mammals, especially other primates. There is no reason to suppose that there is some thick black line that separates humans from all other organisms. We might value other humans more than other animals (in general), but that is because we are human - pretty much all animals display recognition and preference, to some degree, for their own kind.

When it comes to issues of life and death, of our treatment of other living beings, we cannot afford to take these things lightly just because we are dealing with nonhuman animals. There’s little doubt that mistreatment of other animals correlates with a greater likelihood of mistreatment of other humans as well. And if we use a lack of intelligence, for example, as an excuse for cruelty to nonhuman animals, what’s to stop us from using the same excuse for humans with intellectual disabilities, or infant humans who have yet to develop their intellectual capacity, or elderly humans with dementia who have lost their mental capacity? Refusal to respect nonhuman animals based on the fact that they are not human is speciesism, plain and simple, and is not rationally or ethically justifiable. As Jeremy Bentham, the father of Utilitarian ethics, eloquently put it, “The question is not, ‘Can they reason?’ nor ‘Can they speak?’ but ‘Can they suffer?’”.
 
Animals clearly have (differing degrees of) intelligence. Not only do we have clear examples of animals having emotional responses, we also have examples of them dreaming, planning, using tools, and even fabricating tools.

That said, the issue in Catholic teaching is, IIRC, not about animals lacking intelligence and certainly not about them being somehow immune to suffering, but about them having a different kind of soul.
That makes a lot of sense. 👍
 
There is no reason to suppose that other animals lack emotion. Emotion is quite a primitive feature, certainly prior to reason or intellect, and fundamental emotions such as fear and attachment are often essential for survival. We see this even in human development from infancy through to adulthood. Emotion is what prompts many behaviours in animals, from the most basic to the more complex, including the fact that elephants, for example, have been observed to mourn their dead fellows.

The idea that other animals lack emotion or intellect, that they don’t qualify for personhood, has primarily been used as an excuse for humans to abuse them and exploit them without feeling guilt for harming a “person” or a being of any importance.

But anyone who has ever kept companion animals or spent any time at all around other animals could not fail to notice the distinctive signs of sentience, emotion and intelligence. Evolution (which is actually a fact, by the way; the ‘theory’ part comes into play in discerning how it happened - that it happened has been in no doubt amongst biologists, even before Darwin) establishes beyond any reasonable doubt that we are fundamentally related to all other living things, and most closely to other mammals, especially other primates. There is no reason to suppose that there is some thick black line that separates humans from all other organisms. We might value other humans more than other animals (in general), but that is because we are human - pretty much all animals display recognition and preference, to some degree, for their own kind.

When it comes to issues of life and death, of our treatment of other living beings, we cannot afford to take these things lightly just because we are dealing with nonhuman animals. There’s little doubt that mistreatment of other animals correlates with a greater likelihood of mistreatment of other humans as well. And if we use a lack of intelligence, for example, as an excuse for cruelty to nonhuman animals, what’s to stop us from using the same excuse for humans with intellectual disabilities, or infant humans who have yet to develop their intellectual capacity, or elderly humans with dementia who have lost their mental capacity? Refusal to respect nonhuman animals based on the fact that they are not human is speciesism, plain and simple, and is not rationally or ethically justifiable. As Jeremy Bentham, the father of Utilitarian ethics, eloquently put it, “The question is not, ‘Can they reason?’ nor ‘Can they speak?’ but ‘Can they suffer?’”.
I suppose that the post by Jimmy Akin - jimmyakin.com/2005/03/animal_emotions.html (“Animal Emotions”) and another post in the same blog (though not by him) - jimmyakin.com/2007/10/materialism-a-2.html (“Materialism and the moral argument – Part 4”) - are enough to answer that… In short, Catholics agree that animals have emotions - on that point you are only arguing against some philosophers and psychologists. “There’s little doubt that mistreatment of other animals correlates with a greater likelihood of mistreatment of other humans as well.” corresponds to the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas (for example, “Summa Theologica”, First Part of the Second Part, Question 102 - newadvent.org/summa/2102.htm -, Article 6, Reply to Objection 8). But “There is no reason to suppose that there is some thick black line that separates humans from all other organisms.” is clearly false. The fact that you cannot have a philosophical discussion (like this one) with a cat or a dog does show that there is at least some reason to see a difference between humans and other living things. You might try to argue that it is insufficient, but you won’t be very persuasive if you will completely ignore this possibility.
 
When Moses came down from the mountain the people went back to animal worship. We are back there again.
 
“Animals have emotions!” isn’t an argument, it’s an appeal to emotion to make a silly point.

Okay, animals have emotions. And?
 
“Animals have emotions!” isn’t an argument, it’s an appeal to emotion to make a silly point.

Okay, animals have emotions. And?
How is that point silly? Are you agreeing or disagreeing with the fact that animals have emotion and some engage in mourning rituals?
 
But “There is no reason to suppose that there is some thick black line that separates humans from all other organisms.” is clearly false. The fact that you cannot have a philosophical discussion (like this one) with a cat or a dog does show that there is at least some reason to see a difference between humans and other living things.
But is this a difference of degree or of kind? Some might argue that human intellectual abilities, and our physical abilities to manipulate our environment, constitute evidence that we have some kind of fundamental aspect that other animals lack, but this has never been persuasively shown. It’s certainly not true that we exceed other animals in other areas, so why privilege intellect in particular? Just because it seems harder to explain than other sorts of abilities like the sight of an eagle, the speed of a cheetah or an antelope, or the superior olfactory sense of dogs (amongst other animals)? And that doesn’t even touch upon the ways in which intellect can disadvantage one - Hamlet’s dilemma is not entirely fictional! I have seen it argued that humans are very poor at living in the present - we have to be thinking and planning ahead, just because we’re wired that way. But why should we consider this to be advantageous at all times and in all places, or to be “better” than the capacities of other animals?
You might try to argue that it is insufficient, but you won’t be very persuasive if you will completely ignore this possibility.
Of course it’s insufficient from the point of view of basic ethical consideration. It’s insufficient excuse to harm children or the mentally impaired, even though these groups are not given the right to vote or to perform certain other civic duties - based entirely upon mental capacity and/or emotional maturity. The only thing that sets these particular humans apart from other animals is species membership, which is an arbitrary line in the sand from a moral perspective. To say otherwise would be a bit like arguing that those of us who are not capable of being Olympic athletes have less entitlement to basic rights than those who are, that our capacity for sentience is somehow lesser than theirs…and maybe we should even be processed into food for elite footballers or hockey players, or maybe even racing greyhounds… Get the picture?
 
When Moses came down from the mountain the people went back to animal worship. We are back there again.
How does respect and ethical consideration equate to worship, exactly? Isn’t this only what we’re obliged to extend to other humans?
 
But is this a difference of degree or of kind? Some might argue that human intellectual abilities, and our physical abilities to manipulate our environment, constitute evidence that we have some kind of fundamental aspect that other animals lack, but this has never been persuasively shown. It’s certainly not true that we exceed other animals in other areas, so why privilege intellect in particular? Just because it seems harder to explain than other sorts of abilities like the sight of an eagle, the speed of a cheetah or an antelope, or the superior olfactory sense of dogs (amongst other animals)? And that doesn’t even touch upon the ways in which intellect can disadvantage one - Hamlet’s dilemma is not entirely fictional! I have seen it argued that humans are very poor at living in the present - we have to be thinking and planning ahead, just because we’re wired that way. But why should we consider this to be advantageous at all times and in all places, or to be “better” than the capacities of other animals?

Of course it’s insufficient from the point of view of basic ethical consideration. It’s insufficient excuse to harm children or the mentally impaired, even though these groups are not given the right to vote or to perform certain other civic duties - based entirely upon mental capacity and/or emotional maturity. The only thing that sets these particular humans apart from other animals is species membership, which is an arbitrary line in the sand from a moral perspective. To say otherwise would be a bit like arguing that those of us who are not capable of being Olympic athletes have less entitlement to basic rights than those who are, that our capacity for sentience is somehow lesser than theirs…and maybe we should even be processed into food for elite footballers or hockey players, or maybe even racing greyhounds… Get the picture?
“But is this a difference of degree or of kind?” - well, that’s an important question. I would answer that it is a difference of kind, you would answer that it is a difference of degree. I would say that on one side we have the use of reason, while on the other side we do not.

Now the example of use of reason is a participation in a philosophical discussion. Why would it matter more than, let’s say, noticing a changed number of eggs, recognising similar textures, seeing “ultraviolet colour”, running fast, feeling pain and emotions, or many other things which (some) other animals can do? Well, there is a reason. If you do not see it, try to persuade some cat or dog not to eat meat.

That leads to another point. At the first sight it might look that it is more compassionate to other animals to assume that they have rights and are equal (or “semi-equal”) to humans. But if you make this assumption, how will you avoid ending up forced to condemn cat eating a mouse or a wolf eating a bunny about as strongly, as a human murdering another human? And I see little compassion to wolfs and cats in that… Are they supposed to starve to death instead?

And if the difference between reason (that other animals lack) and “neural abilities” (that they have) is a difference of kind and not of degree, the rest of your argument seems to collapse.

Finally, let’s look at the matter from a practical point of view. The Catholic Church does say (Catechism, paragraph 2416): “Animals are God’s creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.”. Are you sure that is not a more reasonable approach…?
 
You can’t. God created all creatures including man. It is arrogant, and ignorance not think God would create creatures without love. Our pets I believe are special gifts they give love unconditionaly giving us comfort and showing us by example how we ought to be the same. I have cats, I have seen them in discomfort, embarrassed and needy.

I am not ashamed to love animals, God asked us to be stewards not masters over the earth. There is no argument but excuses for cruelty. Everything we love, touch or eat comes from God and should be respected an honoured for it’s place in life.
👍
 
How does respect and ethical consideration equate to worship, exactly? Isn’t this only what we’re obliged to extend to other humans?
We abort babies and stop human endeavors for the sake of habitat. We spend billions of dollars on pet care. We cannot throw a chicken across the aisle to another worker. Roads are stopped due to snakes.

My point - the pendulum has swung the other way so much.

Which has more value? The human or the animal? Some will answer - the animal.

We are to practice good stewardship as far as the environment and animals are concerned. Both are there for human use.
 
We abort babies and stop human endeavors for the sake of habitat. We spend billions of dollars on pet care. We cannot throw a chicken across the aisle to another worker. Roads are stopped due to snakes.

My point - the pendulum has swung the other way so much.

Which has more value? The human or the animal? Some will answer - the animal.

We are to practice good stewardship as far as the environment and animals are concerned. Both are there for human use.
The argument boils down to basic, fundamental rights versus merely preferential rights. Let’s say, hypothetically, that a young child in my care had a medical condition that required her to eat a higher proportion of protein than average, and I only had enough ground beef to feed one person. I could quite happily forego the meat in order to feed it to the child, simply because her needs are more profound than mine in this regard.

What right do we really have to carve highways through wilderness areas, or mine coal and oil (the burning of which poisons the atmosphere) at the expense of the survival of other species? Especially when we have - uniquely, apparently, amongst animals - the capacity to come up with alternative solutions to our energy needs?

Too many decisions about the way living, feeling animals are treated are made on the basis of human greed and mere convenience - just look at how the fast food industry has shaped farming and animal husbandry practices over the past several decades.

I fully agree that some people make ridiculous investments in their pets, treating them as fashion accessories and failing to realise that they have their own needs - needs that don’t involve dependence upon every commercial luxury marketed by the so-called “pet care” industry. I don’t believe I unduly indulged my dog, but I did provide him with decent, nutritious food, plenty of affection and also medical care - even chemotherapy - when he needed it.

I don’t believe that any and all human concerns trump those of other animals just because they are human concerns. Our most basic needs - to be allowed to live unmolested, not prevented from pursuing our natural requirements, to be free of unnecessary suffering, to be afforded adequate care by those responsible for providing it - are shared by all sentient beings. In this belief, it appears I am in the minority in Western society…
 
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