The Islamic Punishment Of Thieves

[Faith101]

I believe gods law is not empty punishment. He will punish you with his own way not through the hand of prophet after Jesus. As long as you never well understood about Jesus for Christian then **go stick with law **

you have.

As long as you keep avoiding the question…we will get nowhere.

And The World have seen what have they done and we bore withness for it. Thanks for your fellows in allah.

For the hundredth time, what do the actions of some Muslims have to do with Islam?

What would you say if i said “Your priests, the most learned and supposedly most pious people in your religion, are sexually molesting young children…*therefore *Christianity is a sick and perverted religion”

See how the conclusion doesnt make sense?

 

[Reuben_J]

discipleofJesus:

Compare this Quranic verse

“Cut off the hands of thieves, whether they are male or female, as punishment for what they have done—a deterrent from God: God is almighty and wise. 39 But if anyone repents after his wrongdoing and makes amends, God will accept his repentance: God is most forgiving and merciful.”
(Sura 5:38)

to these Biblical verses

“If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and slaughters it or sells it, he shall restore five oxen for an ox and four sheep for a sheep. 2 If the thief is found breaking in, and he is struck so that he dies, there shall be no guilt for his bloodshed. 3 If the sun has risen on him, there shall be guilt for his bloodshed. He should make full restitution; if he has nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. 4 If the theft is certainly found alive in his hand, whether it is an ox or donkey or sheep, he shall restore double.”
(Exodus 22:1-4)

"Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor; and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold.”
9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; 10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”
(Luke 19:8-10)

“Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need”
(Ephesians 4:28)

"3. The Quran permits the cutting off of the hands of both male and female thieves.

5:38 Cut off the hands of thieves, whether they are male or female, as punishment for what they have done—a deterrent from God: God is almighty and wise. 39 But if anyone repents after his wrongdoing and makes amends, God will accept his repentance: God is most forgiving and merciful.

…

One day, he entered Jericho, just to pass through. A short man, Zacchaeus, a chief tax collector, and wealthy, wanted to see who Jesus was, so he ran ahead along Jesus’ path, and climbed a sycamore tree to get a good look at him above the crowds. Jesus approached, saw him, and invited himself to dinner, and Zacchaeus was glad to have him in his large house. Though the people muttered that Jesus should not spend time in a sinner’s house, Zacchaeus was so overwhelmed that he said to him:

Luke 19:8-9 “Look, Lord! Here and now I give half my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost.”

Jesus answers the self-righteous “judges” of Zacchaeus: “. . . this man, too, is a son of Abraham.” Thus, Jesus came to save the lost, even if they were major thieves. He did not order that his hand should be cut off. Besides, the Torah itself does not prescribe such punishment, so why should Jesus be crueler than it, which was sacred to him and which orders restitution (Ex. 22:3; Lev. 6:4)?

…Paul in his epistle to the Ephesians recommends a remedy for thieves:

4:28 He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.

A more pertinent question that would arise in one’s mind would be, why the altogether new form of punishment (in the Quran) for the same crime? Aren’t they purportedly from the same God? And even if the punishment is being reviewed, what is the reason for doing so?

Looking at the cutting of the hands as punishment for stealing is needless, cruel and not everlasting. Other than being very crude and even sadistic, and very much seventh century in appearance, the wisdom of this punishment is questionable. Was it for deterence? And if so, how effective was it?

Just imagine the cruelty of this punishment. You don’t have any anaesthesia those days; it was raw - cutting off the hands perhaps by a blade or sword. Even how bad they are, criminals are still humans. We don’t advertise around that the person was a thief (by having his hands amputated) in the hope that he will turn a new leaf, a new person, a new life.

Yes, I agree that the punishment is inhuman with no profitable purpose and a stark contrast to the teaching of Jesus Christ.

 

[r.gonzales]

Cyber Knight:

I believe gods law is not empty punishment.

irrelevant. i asked you about the punishments that you believe Allah legislated in the OT, not about the punishments that He will mete out Himself in the hereafter.
Cyber Knight:

He will punish you with his own way not through the hand of prophet after Jesus.

again, irrelevant. i never mentioned anything about jesus. it may be pointed out, yet again, that i asked specifically about the punishments and laws that you believe were legislated by Allah in the OT.
Cyber Knight:

As long as you never well understood about Jesus for Christian then go stick with barbaric law you have. And The World have seen what have they done and we bore withness for it. Thanks for your fellows in allah.

here again you give the impression that the laws and legislations that Allah ordained in the OT are barbaric. so which one is it? they’re barbaric and Allah is inhumane and unjust for legislating such punishments? or they’re not barbaric and inhumane, rather they just and humane, but not intended to actually be applied and are merely empty threats?

answer please… .

 

[discipleofJesus]

3 Imortant points

1. Jesus showed us a better way than both the Old Testament and the Quran
2. The New Testament shows us a better way than both the Old Testament and the Quran
3. Both the Old Testament and the New Testament have better solutions on how to deal with thieves compared to the Quranic prescription of cutting the hands of thieves.

 

[r.gonzales]

3 Imortant points

irrelevant to the question.

next…

 

[Cyber_Knight]

Faith101:

Yes, to relay the same message of Abraham, Moses and all the messengers before them…there is one God, worship Him.

we indeed worship one god faith101. it was you who never wanted to believe we worship one god, you wish desperately we worship 3 gods. well one is enough.

 

[Reuben_J]

r.gonzales:

irrelevant. i asked you about the punishments that you believe Allah legislated in the OT, not about the punishments that He will mete out Himself in the hereafter.

Maybe rg can provide examples of the OT punishment referred to? Though that don’'t help toward the discussion here.

r.gonzales:

again, irrelevant. i never mentioned anything about jesus. it may be pointed out, yet again, that i asked specifically about the punishments and laws that you believe were legislated by Allah in the OT.

Relevant if we want to compare punishments found in Islam and Christianity.

r.gonzales:

here again you give the impression that the laws and legislations that Allah ordained in the OT are barbaric. so which one is it? they’re barbaric and Allah is inhumane and unjust for legislating such punishments? or they’re not barbaric and inhumane, rather they just and humane, but not intended to actually be applied and are merely empty threats?

answer please… .

Lawyers’ questions. Getting out of topic from the issue discussed (the Islamic punishment of thieves). Nature of questions is evasive that can lead discussion to be out of focus from the issue at hand (excuse the pun).

We are saying the cutting of hands for thief is inhumane. This law is still being enforced today in Islam. Now if you want to discuss about OT laws being inhumane, a new thread can be set up for that.

jfyi, God’s laws is legislated according to God’s justice, which are reflected in the characteristic of God, i.e. His laws will not be out of sync with His character. For example, if God is love, then His known laws should reflect this attribute.

The argument here is whether the cutting of hands for thieves fits God’s characteristic. From a Christian’s perspective it’s not. It’s also smack of unforgiveness as the punishment cast a permanent reminder for the thief and his/her society.

In human term the nature of the punishment is inhumane and cruel.

 

[discipleofJesus]

How is Allah (the god of the Quran) most-merciful and most-forgiving if this is the punishment prescribed in the Quran for stealing? This doesn’t seem to be forgiving or merciful.

 

[discipleofJesus]

nice posts Reuben J

 

[discipleofJesus]

Here’s another question, the Quranic punishment for stealing seems more severe than the Quranic punishment for fornication. If Allah (the god of the Quran) is just, how can he treat fornication as a lesser sin than stealing?

In the words of M. Rafiqul-Haqq and P. Newton ( Taken from ‘Allah: Is He God?’ by M. Rafiqul-Haqq and P. Newton debate.domini.org/newton/allah.html )

In Islam the prescribed punishment for theft is cutting off of the hand, while it prescribes one hundred lashes[31] for the sin of fornication by a single man. We can only conclude that according to the Qur’an, property theft is many times more serious than sin against persons. A single man who commits fornication, can go and live in another city. There is no permanent scar, no permanent identification for all to see. But a person with a hand cut off is marked for the rest of his life. If a single man fornicates with someone’s daughter, he will receive one hundred lashes, and gets banished from his city as a punishment, but if he steals the money purse that belongs to the girl’s father from the house, his hand will be cut off. Which will make the father’s blood boil, the act of fornication or the loss of his money purse? Fornication involves another human being, while the sin of theft involves property. You can pay back the property, make amends and the matter is finished. But you can’t undo the act of fornication; the consequences are harmful and lifelong. Surely the sin of fornication is far greater than stealing even a million dollars. Can these respective punishments be consistent with the God of justice?

Did the just God treat the sin of fornication which can result in life long scars, as a lesser sin than stealing, which could be compensated for by paying back money or property? Did hand cutting come from the just God or did it originate with the “haves” to protect themselves from the “have nots”, Could it have originated with the rich who wanted to protect their belongings from the weak and the poor?

(bold emphasis mine)

 

[Faith101]

Cyber Knight:

we indeed worship one god faith101. it was you who never wanted to believe we worship one god, you wish desperately we worship 3 gods. well one is enough.

Why did you bring that up? All I said was that the messengers job was to tell people to worship one God.

 

[discipleofJesus]

r.gonzales:

and you believe that the legislation of the death penalty for a woman who is raped but does not call for help isn’t???

You didn’t describe what the Old Testament states correctly.

“23 “If a young woman who is a virgin is betrothed to a husband, and a man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he humbled his neighbor’s wife; so you shall put away the evil from among you.
25 “But if a man finds a betrothed young woman in the countryside, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. 26 But you shall do nothing to the young woman; there is in the young woman no sin deserving of death, for just as when a man rises against his neighbor and kills him, even so is this matter. 27 For he found her in the countryside, and the betrothed young woman cried out, but there was no one to save her.”
(Deuteronomy 22:23-27)

This passage is referring to women that are betrothed, not all women.

It doesn’t say to kill the betrothed woman who was** raped ** but the betrothed woman who willfully chose to engage in the sexual act with the man.

By screaming, the woman indicates that she is being forced to have sex without her consent. Hence, when the woman does not scream this indicates that she willfully chose to engage in the sexual act with the man.

Read the passage carefully.

 

[Reuben_J]

discipleofJesus:

Here’s another question, the Quranic punishment for stealing seems more severe than the Quranic punishment for fornication. If Allah (the god of the Quran) is just, how can he treat fornication as a lesser sin than stealing?

In the words of M. Rafiqul-Haqq and P. Newton ( Taken from ‘Allah: Is He God?’ by M. Rafiqul-Haqq and P. Newton debate.domini.org/newton/allah.html )

(bold emphasis mine)

You may have a point there, but I would not argue this with Muslims as it is a prerogative of Islam as a religion to decide on which sin is lesser or greater, depending on its theology.

Muslims would probably have a reason for the cutting of hands for thieves which we desperately want to hear here. It’s not for us to say it’s wrong per se, but we can comment on it from a Christian’s perspective.

In the other thread, rg reluctantly indirectly admitted to the ‘correctness’ of the punishment of death for apostasy, after much debate, by finally saying something like it’s his decision to choose Islam because it’s the truth. I guess in discussion like this we accept that. We can only compare.

From the many discussions here on Islam, I gather that there are certain topics that are difficult for Muslims to answer or justify. Examples are like the one on this thread, the smiting of the heads of the enemies, taqqiya, polygamy and also the mentioned apostasy killing. I think this is sad, as Christians here may not get the benefit of frank explanations from Muslims.

If I may recall, a Muslim participant did admit that Muhammad marrying many wives was allowed for reason not because of love but in order to spread Islam thorugh marriages. My undertsanding then, based on this reasoning, that one can break Islamic laws if it’s for the greater cause of Islam. I did try to think that taqqiya would probably fall along that line, but that’s just my assumption.

My point is, lots of useful information on the truth of Islam can be provided by Muslims themselves here.

 

[Faith101]

From the many discussions here on Islam, I gather that there are certain topics that are difficult for Muslims to answer or justify. Examples are like the one on this thread, the smiting of the heads of the enemies, taqqiya, polygamy and also the mentioned apostasy killing. I think this is sad, as Christians here may not get the benefit of frank explanations from Muslims.

Peace Reuben,

I sincerely believe that someone who has an issue with the strict monotheism in Islam will not benefit from a justification of any of the things you mentioned.

In any case, the “smiting of the heads” has been addressed on another thread, and so has taqqiya and the punishment for apostates (i do not recall any reluctance on brother r.gonzales’ part, only people asking him the same question over and over again that he had already answered). Muslims are not dodging the questions. Perhaps the answers arent in line with what someone *wants * to hear, but that is not a Muslim’s problem.

If I may recall, a Muslim participant did admit that Muhammad marrying many wives was allowed for reason not because of love but in order to spread Islam thorugh marriages. My undertsanding then, based on this reasoning, that one can break Islamic laws if it’s for the greater cause of Islam. I did try to think that taqqiya would probably fall along that line, but that’s just my assumption.

What rule, that applied to him, was he breaking?

 

[jcaz]

So here’s the typical discussion from an ignorant Christian:

Christian: Islam mandates the cutting off of a theif’s hands. That is inhumane. And Islaam calls for the death of the adulter. That is inhumane.

Muslim: GOD’S RULES ARE NEVER INHUMANE. However, since you are a Christian, and since you SUPPOSEDLY believe the Bible is the word of God, and therefore, ALL of the Bible was, according to your belief, LEGISLATED BY GOD, then will you also call similar punishments in the Old Testament as inhumane?

Christian: Islaam says to cut the hand of a theif. That is inhumane. Don’t bring me this Old Testament stuff. We believe in the New Testament. Jesus fulfilled the old law with the new law.

Muslim: Yes, Islaam DOES say to cut the hand of a theif. But because you are claiming that this law is inhumane and because you are claiming that the death penalty is inumane, I am asking you, ACCORDING TO YOUR BELIEFS, what you feel about IDENTICAL punishments found in the Old Testament. You can do one of two things:
(1) You can assert that the Old Testament is not the word of God, but rather, the word of man. This helps you to avoid the question (which is what you want to do), but now you have dug a huge hole for yourself.
(2) You can admit that the Old Testament is the word of God, LEGISLATED BY HIM, but you are now forced to look back at your original statement. You said that a law of God, DEATH for an adulterer, was INHUMANE! So what do you do? Do you still believe this?

Christian: Why do you still bring up the O.T. We follow the N.T. and the Love of Jesus.

Muslim: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Is it just me? How the heck do you have an intellectual discussion with someone like this?

You make a claim. We say it is not inhumane. We then point out that YOU SUPPOSEDLY believe that your God legislated similar acts in the Old Testament. So how on earth can you have the audacity to say that ANY law of God is inhumane? Are you crazy?

It is the must filthy, disgusting speech when ignorant people, who claim to be Christian or Muslim, come forward and say that laws, that are in their own books, are inhumane. Are you better than God? Do you know better than him?

**THE AUDACITY THAT YOU HAVE TO SAY THAT THE LAWS OF YOUR CREATOR ARE INHUMANE.

FEAR YOUR LORD! GO REPENT NOW! And fix your beliefs!**

Arggh. My blood pressure is already rising. Do you guys realize the stupidity of the speech of such people.

 

[melbourne_guy]

Gonzales im just interested in knowing whilst your speaking english, why do you refer to allah as allah and not God.

 

[Neverland]

R. Gonzales, Cjaz,

The condence history of relation between God - mankind:

OT

1. The perfect relation, before mankind fell into sin.
2. The sin made mankind knows about FEAR - Fear of God and everything, and cannot understand the perfect LOVE.
3. God loved mankind, and to talk with them, in order to prepare mankind, he had to talk in a FEAR based talk, so human can understand.
   In this phase is there are strict laws and such, which you mentioned.
4. Little by little He showed mankind that HE also could love. He was Just, He forgave mistakes and sin, and such. He kept it like this until he made a solid foundation of a new relation based on LOVE, like the one mankind had before falling into sin.

NT

1. The cost of sin is the separation of The Creator and the Creature (mankind). This gap is uncrossable by the creature, no matter what they try.
2. The Creator should give a perfect bridge namely Jesus (you now need to understand Surah 19:19 in this light)
3. By this ultimate sacrifice by the Just yet Merciful Creator, mankind now understand how God loves mankind.
4. This also makes the FEAR based relations and laws, to be made perfect by the LOVE based relations and laws.
   The law (ten commandments) is the same, but now it’s with LOVE.

So, this is the base why we, Christian, says that we follows NT now, because the OT has been made perfect in NT.

So I don’t see what is the things that you don’t understand. If you still don’t understand, I will give you an analogi to your level.

 

[Isidore_AK]

jcaz:

So here’s the typical discussion from an ignorant Christian:

Christian: Islam mandates the cutting off of a theif’s hands. That is inhumane. And Islaam calls for the death of the adulter. That is inhumane.

Muslim: GOD’S RULES ARE NEVER INHUMANE. However, since you are a Christian, and since you SUPPOSEDLY believe the Bible is the word of God, and therefore, ALL of the Bible was, according to your belief, LEGISLATED BY GOD, then will you also call similar punishments in the Old Testament as inhumane?

Christian: Islaam says to cut the hand of a theif. That is inhumane. Don’t bring me this Old Testament stuff. We believe in the New Testament. Jesus fulfilled the old law with the new law.

Muslim: Yes, Islaam DOES say to cut the hand of a theif. But because you are claiming that this law is inhumane and because you are claiming that the death penalty is inumane, I am asking you, ACCORDING TO YOUR BELIEFS, what you feel about IDENTICAL punishments found in the Old Testament. You can do one of two things:
(1) You can assert that the Old Testament is not the word of God, but rather, the word of man. This helps you to avoid the question (which is what you want to do), but now you have dug a huge hole for yourself.
(2) You can admit that the Old Testament is the word of God, LEGISLATED BY HIM, but you are now forced to look back at your original statement. You said that a law of God, DEATH for an adulterer, was INHUMANE! So what do you do? Do you still believe this?

Christian: Why do you still bring up the O.T. We follow the N.T. and the Love of Jesus.

Muslim: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Is it just me? How the heck do you have an intellectual discussion with someone like this?

You make a claim. We say it is not inhumane. We then point out that YOU SUPPOSEDLY believe that your God legislated similar acts in the Old Testament. So how on earth can you have the audacity to say that ANY law of God is inhumane? Are you crazy?

It is the must filthy, disgusting speech when ignorant people, who claim to be Christian or Muslim, come forward and say that laws, that are in their own books, are inhumane. Are you better than God? Do you know better than him?

**THE AUDACITY THAT YOU HAVE TO SAY THAT THE LAWS OF YOUR CREATOR ARE INHUMANE.

FEAR YOUR LORD! GO REPENT NOW! And fix your beliefs!**

Arggh. My blood pressure is already rising. Do you guys realize the stupidity of the speech of such people.

I have to agree with you here. It seems that some people refuse to believe that God can be the God of ‘Justice & War’ instead of just the God of ‘Peace & other Warm-and-Fuzzy Hippy Feelings’.

Heck, bring back the OT punishments…they seem to work a bit better…

 

[r.gonzales]

melbourne_guy:

Gonzales im just interested in knowing whilst your speaking english, why do you refer to allah as allah and not God.

because Allah is God’s name.

Neverland:

The condence history of relation between God - mankind…

So, this is the base why we, Christian, says that we follows NT now, because the OT has been made perfect in NT.

So I don’t see what is the things that you don’t understand. If you still don’t understand, I will give you an analogi to your level.

we know all that and we understand it perfectly fine. what you and many others seem to not understand is that regardless of the fact that you believe that many of the laws and punishments in the OT are obsolete or abrogated you still believe that those laws and punishments were ordained and legistlated by Allah/God (or whatever melbourne_guy wants to call Him). this fact in and of itself renders those laws to be just for the crimes He legislated them for and humane. that you believe that Allah lifted these punishments, whether it be out of His love for you or wanting to be Merciful to you, does not change that fact.

 

[Neverland]

To Gonzales

you said:
we know all that and we understand it perfectly fine. what you and many others seem to not understand is that regardless of the fact that you believe that many of the laws and punishments in the OT are obsolete or abrogated you still believe that those laws and punishments were ordained and legistlated by Allah/God (or whatever melbourne_guy wants to call Him). this fact in and of itself renders those laws to be just for the crimes He legislated them for and humane. that you believe that Allah lifted these punishments, whether it be out of His love for you or wanting to be Merciful to you, does not change that fact.​

I said God legislated his law based on the time, and the need.
at ancient times, the life was harsh. Killing, cutting hands, and such are something common. We, humans, were bandits. And you know, you need to apply harsh punishment to savage bandits, or else, the advancement of humanity will perish. And that’s also the reason why God sent prophets to this world, again and again…little by little…to let us know bit by bit about Him.
And when He knows we are ready (he is all knowing), He acted out of love by giving us Jesus, as the holy bridge to take us to HIM, to start mending the broken relationship. And this is the UNDENIABLE PROOF of His mercy.

Good that you understand that. So, I see that the Islamic Laws are still applying harsh punishment, which I don’t think should be the case.