The Islamic Punishment Of Thieves

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Cyber Knight:

gonzales, stop with your ‘OT style’ i was just saying some thing simple. Is stealing must be punished by cutting the hands? I have seen muslim cutting the hands off a thief and have seen they beheading their victim and I think that was cruel action they have done in the name of religion. Its barbaric. It’s inhuman.

Cutting off the top of the index finger would be sufficient.​

The rest are here: glob.glwb.info/muhammed/Muhammed_Cartoons_Jyllands_Posten.html
http://glob.glwb.info/muhammed/images/Muhammed_Annette_Carlsen_Jyllands-Posten_Cartoons.jpg

 

[Andrea22]

Joseph_Alison:

Islamic law or Sharia intends to achieve three goals: protect the life, property and the honor of people.
A thief -if uncovered- is a potential murderer or a potential victim of a murder.
For theft, the Sharia intends to protect life and property at the same time. The hand that steals could easily become a hand that kills or its owner can be killed, leaving mourning families behind. Allah (SWT) in His wisdom legislated a very deterrent punishment for theft. It is like the US and its nuclear arsenal, no country dares declare war on the US; every one has seen (Hiroshima, Nagasaki) what a nuclear bomb can do; every one is warned, that’s the intend of deterrence.
Stealing for food is not punishable, The Khalif Omar (RA) suspended the law during a famine period.
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said that even if his beloved daughter stole something, he swore she will be punished like any other, he added that we should not be like the Children of Israel who used to overlook the law for the nobles and the rich among them and apply it for the weak and poor.
In Mecca, people leave their stores (including jewelry stores) open when they go to the mosque to pray, they don’t worry about being stolen.
These days theft is done at the highest levels of countries, at the head of states in many cases, leaving millions people eat from the garbage and homeless. Those are the criminals who should have their hands cut in the first place.

Salaam.
Joseph.

Bismillahi, rahmani, raheem

Wow Joseph, thank you for your response. I read only a few of the replies in this thread because it gets tiring to read the same discussion over and over, neither side wants to honestly answer the questions.

In any case, you have answered the why and shown it’s effectiveness as a deterrent of theft. One of the main differences is that in Christianity, theft is a sin and the punishment of sin is death - spiritual death - separation from God. Nothing else in this world is worse than being separated from God - not even the cutting off of hands or even mortal death.

You see our aim is to glorify God in all we do, we do things (or refrain from doing bad things) not because we fear personal harm, but because we want to make God happy, ie. glorify him. Not sinning because of fear of having my hands cut off is doing the right thing for the wrong reason. I think the reason to not sin is so that we don’t offend God. Everything we do is for him for his Glory. That is how Christianity works.

Peace

 

[Andrea22]

r.gonzales:

and you believe that the legislation of the death penalty for a woman who is raped but does not call for help isn’t??? or how about working on the sabbath???

the bible calls for the death penalty for these crimes. are they inhumane???

To answer your questions, the first example you give is not entirely accurate so I will disregard your question as God did not command death for a raped woman who did not call for help. In answer to your second question take a look at the following:

A Crime Worthy of Death
by Peter Meney

In Numbers chapter 15 an incident is recounted from Israel’s wilderness wandering. It concerns a man who gathered sticks on the sabbath day, and the high cost of his actions.

Today, in Britain, we have completely erased capital punishment from the list of possible sentences for wrongdoing.

But in Old Testament Israel this was not the case. There were numerous crimes such as murder, adultery and idolatry that earned the punishment of death. However, there were also other crimes such as disobedience towards parents, gluttony, and sabbath-breaking that equally brought down the wrath of the executioner.

In our modern culture in which we have made a god of human rights, we find such a severe sanction excessive for what might be regarded as at worst, misdemeanours.

Yet often there is a spiritual lesson in the Old Testament rules that point to the real relevance of a severe judgement by God. Take for example the story of the man arrested for gathering firewood on the sabbath day. By working on the Sabbath this man was knowingly profaning God’s appointed day of rest. This was in direct contradiction of God’s law. It demonstrated a spirit of rebellion and contempt. For picking up sticks the man was condemned to die.

Some will consider the punishment too harsh. Few today, even amongst the strictest sabbatarians, would advocate such punishment. Yet here it is, as clear as you like, at the express command of God, ‘The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.’ (v 35).

Why was the crime so serious and the punishment so severe? Why should God make such a sabbath rule anyway and hedge it around with such fearful sanctions?

Several answers are suggested:

The sabbath, being a day set aside for the worship of God, was dedicated to God and any other activity robbed and **dishonoured ** God.
The sabbath rest was established by God at creation and set as a pattern for man’s example.
A sabbath rest was for the good of the people, the creator recognising the benefit of one rest day in seven.
It was necessary to social cohesion for rules and regulations to be imposed and enforced among the wilderness people.
Now all these are true, and having once established the rules God also imposed the sanctions against those who breach them.

What is the spiritual application that gives meaning to the peculiar circumstances of Numbers 15 and illuminates the true, New Testament significance of the sabbath day rest? The answer is found in Hebrews 4:9, 10. It states, ‘There remaineth therefore a rest (or a keeping of a sabbath) to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.’

God is offended if we despise the sufficiency of grace. God repudiates all idea of man working to secure divine pleasure. What is this to do with the stick gatherer? Everything. The seemingly innocuous act of gathering sticks struck at the very essence of God’s Old Testament picture of Christian rest. Continuing to labour when all work should have stopped implied insufficiency in God’s provision. It was the Old Testament equivalent of the Apostle Paul’s anathemas in Galatians 1:6-9. An implicit denial of sovereign grace and the sufficiency of Christ’s imputed righteousness.

The severity of the punishment against this man demonstrates just how serious God is about grace only. He will not tolerate mixing.

**The Christian’s rest is rest from works salvation. It is accepting grace alone as the basis of our union with God. **

 

[Andrea22]

Finally - is the death penalty for breaking the sabbath inhumane?

Inhumane means lacking pity, kindness, or mercy. So if the crime is that profaning God, rebelling against him, and dishonouring him, the answer by God’s standards is NO. By human standards, maybe, but then we musn’t question God’s word from a human perspective, we need to look at things from his perspective.

According to the Cathecism of the Church we support the death penalty in very few instances, in fact they are so rare that they are virtually non-existant.

One thing that is evident is that law makers in most of the world do not follow the Bible to make their laws. Where as in Islam… they do, i.e. Shariah. The bible does not dictate for us the laws of the LAND. It dictates the laws of GOD, and the kingdom of God is not of this world (John 18:36). I would porpose that to be one possible answer why we do not follow the death penalty for breaking of the sabbath.

Peace.

 

[r.gonzales]

Andrea22:

I would porpose that to be one possible answer why we do not follow the death penalty for breaking of the sabbath.

my question wasn’t regarding why you don’t apply that particular legislated punishment anymore, my question was with regards to the punishment’s humane or inhumane nature. the intent behind the question was to make a point; a point that was affirmed by what you posted above:

Inhumane means lacking pity, kindness, or mercy. So if the crime is that profaning God, rebelling against him, and dishonouring him, the answer by God’s standards is NO. By human standards, maybe, but then we musn’t question God’s word from a human perspective, we need to look at things from his perspective.

thanks for the contribution.

 

[Andrea22]

So you are saying that Christianity and Islam share common beliefs in this teaching? That stealing is a grave sin because you are purposefuly defying and dishonouring God and that any punishement he deems fit for the crime is just in a Godly perspective?

 

[r.gonzales]

greetings andrea.

Andrea22:

So you are saying that Christianity and Islam share common beliefs in this teaching? That stealing is a grave sin because you are purposefuly defying and dishonouring God and that any punishement he deems fit for the crime is just in a Godly perspective?

at the end of my post in post #45 i posted a link to an article about crime and punishment in islam. it basically outlined what my brother in faith, joseph alison, mentioned in his post, but with quite a few more details and further discussion behind the wisdom behind Allah’s laws and the punishments He’s legislated for those who break them.

islamic laws and its penal system were ordained to preserve life, religion, reason/intellect, lineage and property. all of the laws and penalties legislated by Allah were done so out of His mercy, His justice and His wisdom. what i am saying is that the fact that they were legislated by Allah alone negates any barbaric nature or inhumane aspect behind the punishment, for Allah is not a barbaric, nor inhumane God. nor does He legislate laws and punishments that are unjust and oppressive. the laws and punishments He legislates and ordains fit the severity of the crimes they’re set for and serve as sufficient deterrents for those who desire to commit them.

 

[Neverland]

To All,

Islamic law or Sharia intends to achieve three goals: protect the life, property and the honor of people.
A thief -if uncovered- is a potential murderer or a potential victim of a murder.
For theft, the Sharia intends to protect life and property at the same time. The hand that steals could easily become a hand that kills or its owner can be killed, leaving mourning families behind. Allah (SWT) in His wisdom legislated a very deterrent punishment for theft. It is like the US and its nuclear arsenal, no country dares declare war on the US; every one has seen (Hiroshima, Nagasaki) what a nuclear bomb can do; every one is warned, that’s the intend of deterrence.
Stealing for food is not punishable, The Khalif Omar (RA) suspended the law during a famine period.
Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said that even if his beloved daughter stole something, he swore she will be punished like any other, he added that we should not be like the Children of Israel who used to overlook the law for the nobles and the rich among them and apply it for the weak and poor.
In Mecca, people leave their stores (including jewelry stores) open when they go to the mosque to pray, they don’t worry about being stolen.
These days theft is done at the highest levels of countries, at the head of states in many cases, leaving millions people eat from the garbage and homeless. Those are the criminals who should have their hands cut in the first place.

---

Can you tell me the practice of Blood Money?

 

[discipleofJesus]

r.gonzales:

greetings andrea.

at the end of my post in post #45 i posted a link to an article about crime and punishment in islam. it basically outlined what my brother in faith, joseph alison, mentioned in his post, but with quite a few more details and further discussion behind the wisdom behind Allah’s laws and the punishments He’s legislated for those who break them.

islamic laws and its penal system were ordained to preserve life, religion, reason/intellect, lineage and property. all of the laws and penalties legislated by Allah were done so out of His mercy, His justice and His wisdom. what i am saying is that the fact that they were legislated by Allah alone negates any barbaric nature or inhumane aspect behind the punishment, for Allah is not a barbaric, nor inhumane God. nor does He legislate laws and punishments that are unjust and oppressive. the laws and punishments He legislates and ordains fit the severity of the crimes they’re set for and serve as sufficient deterrents for those who desire to commit them.

Gonzales, this seems to be circular reasoning.

Muslim: Allah, in the Quran, is just, merciful, wise

Non-Muslim: But what about the Quranic punishment for thieves? That is unjust, not wise, not merciful. Doesn’t that show that Allah, in the Quran, is unjust, not wise, not merciful?

Muslim: The Quranic punishment for thieves is not “unjust, not wise, not merciful”.

**Non-Muslim: ** Clearly they are, how can you say they are not? What is your evidence/reason for saying that they are not?

Muslim: Because Allah is just, merciful, wise, therefore none of his punishments can be “unjust, not wise, not merciful”.

 

[inJESUS]

OT CANT be understood without the NT…&the OT isnt a single verse. At Moses’ time, laws were put to make things better. Making things better, &since it is a Godly person speaking, then he attributes things to God. Same as we do today …how many times do we say : God ispired me to hit him in the face or God will be with me in this war…does it mean that God inspired this? no it shows how **i ** wanted God to be or what **i ** wanted him to do. God is the same, he does not change, it is our perception of him that changes. God is very clear : we shouldnt kill…but what about killing in the OT? well the bible clearly show all the sins made by people, even prophets, 2say that the only sinless person who has ever walked on this planet is Jesus…this is how Moses understood God, &based on it he put the law which is divided into several parts,1of which is the moral one of which Jesus spoke…the God of the OT was understood as a Just God who punishes evil, thus his godly people should punish as well because they represent God on earth. So Moses says that God inspired this because this is how he understood God and because such a law is in place for these people and the time they lived in.
the OT law: Jesus saying : **they ** told you… , but i tell you… which means that the true,final Godly law is what Jesus is teaching, not what people thought it is.Jesus made it clear the difference b/t what man thought God is $who he really is…not to forget that Jesus rebuked them for attributing things to God that God never said. The idea of the Just God is true indeed but Jesus came to make a new covenant with people. The OT is the old 1, Jesus is the new 1. Jesus came to say yes God is just, but he wants u 2 know that he is loving, he wants u to love him not fear him. That why Jesus didnt come to abolish the law, but to give it a diff. understanding of our relationship to God based on love.He often taught jews HOW to interpret the Torah. He did not say that the OT is bad , but he said it must be understood in a different light, in Jesus’ light of forgiveness. We can say that the OT taught about God’s standard according to which we r all sinners &should be punished severly in life & afterlife. But God came to tell us that he is merciful and loving as well. So Jesus was like saying : yes all sinful deserve to be punished but God doesnt want ur destruction but ur salvation…he doesnt want to punish u on earth coz he wants u happy, neither in afterlife coz he wants you with Him. In the eg.of the prostitute, why didnt Jesus say stone her like in Moses’ law? basically, she deserves punishment, but Jesus showed God’s mercy…he told her : go &sin no more; he gave her another chance to repent to show if she wants to follow God or not, &indeed she did. This is God who loves us so much, saved us, and asks us to live in a good way until we rejoin him.
“For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law THOUGH NOT BEING UNDER THE LAW MYSELF, so that I might win those who are under the Law; to those who are without law, as without law, though NOT BEING WITHOUT THE LAW OF GOD BUT UNDER THE LAW OF CHRIST, so that I might win those who are without law.” (1Co 9:19-)

So? The moral &spiritual laws of God r found in both the Law of Moses and in the Law of Christ, but the law of Moses and the Law of Christ are not one and the same. The Law of Moses was designed for a different people; those before the cross. The Law of Christ is designed for those who come to the cross and take to themselves Jesus as their Lord.
For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. (Rom.6:14).

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. (James 2:10)… Nobody could fulfill the whole Law, not even Moses!
- Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. (Rom.3:20).
to demonstrate to sinners that we cannot stand before Him on the basis of our own merit…on law ground. Law can only condemn the law breaker; it cannot save him. The sinner must not seek his salvation on the grounds of law keeping, for, even if he kept the entire law and committed just one infraction, the Law would justly demand his doom (James 2:10). No, the sinner can only approach God on the grounds of God’s Grace.

when we see we can’t fulfill the Law, that we are sinners, we have the need of a Savior, and it is Jesus Christ living in us,&with Jesus in us we can fulfill the Law. yes,the fulness of the Law, &not I, but Jesus who lives in me (Gal.2:20).
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we r no longer under a schoolmaster. (Gal 3:24-25).

 

[Reuben_J]

Faith101:

Peace Reuben,

I sincerely believe that someone who has an issue with the strict monotheism in Islam will not benefit from a justification of any of the things you mentioned.

In any case, the “smiting of the heads” has been addressed on another thread, and so has taqqiya and the punishment for apostates (i do not recall any reluctance on brother r.gonzales’ part, only people asking him the same question over and over again that he had already answered). Muslims are not dodging the questions. Perhaps the answers arent in line with what someone *wants * to hear, but that is not a Muslim’s problem.

Hi Faith,

Sorry for the belated response. Been away for the long weekend.

Reading the discussion here, I am quite satisfied with the explanation given for the Islamic punishment of thieves. I can’t say that I admire this form of punishment though there are other concepts of Islam that I agree with. I still say that cutting of hands is outdated, cruel, unforgiving and implying that God’s work is static.

You may not admit it, but Muslims seem to be evasive when asked for explanation/ justification on the issues mentioned. It is this demeanor that makes me came to that conclusion. But then again that perhaps because of our different discussion style in dealing with these issues.
Reuben J:

If I may recall, a Muslim participant did admit that Muhammad marrying many wives was allowed for reason not because of love but in order to spread Islam thorugh marriages. My undertsanding then, based on this reasoning, that one can break Islamic laws if it’s for the greater cause of Islam. I did try to think that taqqiya would probably fall along that line, but that’s just my assumption.

Faith101:

What rule, that applied to him, was he breaking?

It’s not breaking the rule in an Islamic sense since Muhammad was allowed by Allah to marry more than the permitted four wives. It was a contention for argument because of the discrepancy of Allah’s law as applied to Muhammad who was but just human being.

r.gonzales:

we know all that and we understand it perfectly fine. what you and many others seem to not understand is that regardless of the fact that you believe that many of the laws and punishments in the OT are obsolete or abrogated you still believe that those laws and punishments were ordained and legistlated by Allah/God (or whatever melbourne_guy wants to call Him). this fact in and of itself renders those laws to be just for the crimes He legislated them for and humane. that you believe that Allah lifted these punishments, whether it be out of His love for you or wanting to be Merciful to you, does not change that fact.

This is one reason of me saying Muslim participants here being evasive. Instead of focusing on the topic, why do you need to bring in the OT of the Bible?

Do Muslims say that, ha, there are similar punishments in the Bible so why do Christians question the Quran when it has them? OR, we are in the same boat so the said punishment is alright.

I take pain to say that this is irrelevant as far as this thread is concerned because the respective backgrounds are so different.

There are many explanations by Christians here regarding this but I think their points are being drowned in your unwillingness (and vice versa) to listen to them.

I want to restate here that OT punishments were for the specific period therein. Yes, they are very harsh. There is no denying that. These were God’s justice. Man broke the covenant with God and thus had to face the harsh reality of living in a world without a remedy or a savior to make this situation right.

If Adam did not sin we all would still be basking in the paradise of God. But he did, and we find ourselves in the world as we know it is today. But God loves. He found a way so that humans may get out of this mess. That way is what we call God’s plan of salvation. With Jesus, God’s justice is finally a reality (at His own expense) so that tears will we wiped from our eyes. The harsh punishments of the Old Covenant are no more, being replaced by the blood and flesh of Jesus and the New Covenant.

The harsh punishment of Islam seems to revert back all what God has tried to do. This is the basis of Christians’ argument against those Islamic punishments. Reason for bringing this up? Because among Christians ourselves we argue that Muslims worship the same God’s of Christianity, and on the other hand, Islam’s claim that Muhammad was the last prophet.

Thus this whole argument is relevant. Otherwise we will not intrude into what is a purely Islam’s prerogative…

Peace.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam Brother Neverland;

Neverland:

Can you tell me the practice of Blood Money?

I never saw a Muslim using the expression Blood money. What you asked about is called compensation or “Ad-Diya” in Arabic.

Following a physical harm done to a person by another person, the person harmed can either forgive, retaliate (do the same thing done to him/her) or ask for Ad-Diya (compensation). Those are the rights of the victim. If the victim is killed, those rights are transfered to his/her guardian (close relative in most cases).

Narrated Abu Shurayh:

   "The Prophet (PBUH) said: If a relative of anyone is killed, or if he suffers khabl (meaning a wound) he may choose one of the three things: he may retaliate, or forgive, or receive compensation. But if he wishes a fourth (i.e. something more), hold his hands. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty" (Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 39, Number 4481)

Qissas is the Arabic term for retaliation. In the case of murder, Allah (SWT) said:

    "O ye who believe! The law of equality (Qissas) is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty". (Qur'an 2:178)

The wisdom behind the Qissas: “In the Law of Equality (Qissas) there is (saving of) Life to you, o ye men of understanding; that ye may restrain yourselves” (Qur’an 2:179)

The prophet (PBUH) always favored forgiveness. Narrated Anas ibn Malik:

“I never saw the Apostle of Allah (PBUH) that some dispute which involved retaliation was brought to him but he commanded regarding it for remission”. (Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 39, Number 4482)

Also narrated Wa’il ibn Hujr:

"I was with the Prophet (PBUH) when a man who was a murderer and had a strap round his neck was brought to him.
He then called the legal guardian of the victim and asked him: Do you forgive him? He said: No. He (the prophet) asked: Will you accept the Ad-Diya? He said: No. He asked: Will you kill him? He said: Yes. He said: Take him. When he turned his back, he (the prophet) said: Do you forgive him? He said: No. He said: Will you accept the Ad-Diya? He said: No. He said: Will you kill him? He said: Yes. He said: Take him. After repeating all this a fourth time, he (the prophet) said: If you forgive him, he will bear the burden of his own sin and the sin of the victim. He then forgave him. He (the narrator) said: I saw him pulling the strap" (Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 39, Number 4484)

I am asking my Brothers and Sisters in faith to add to the above or correct it if any.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam Brother Andrea;

Andrea22:

You see our aim is to glorify God in all we do, we do things (or refrain from doing bad things) not because we fear personal harm, but because we want to make God happy, ie. glorify him. Not sinning because of fear of having my hands cut off is doing the right thing for the wrong reason. I think the reason to not sin is so that we don’t offend God. Everything we do is for him for his Glory. That is how Christianity works.

Brother Andrea;
Likewise the whole life of a pious Muslim is to please Allah (SWT) in all what he does. An obedient Muslim never thinks about the punishments, they are in the back of his mind; he willingly submitted himself to Allah (SWT) and that submission helps him to be in quasi-constant remembrance of Allah (SWT), which has the end result to help him overcome temptations easily. But again, not everyone had the correct upbringing, religious education and personal struggle or quest for righteousness. Those who are lacking the closeness to God and who may think about disturbing the community by harming its members in a way or another, those should be conscious that there is a system in place to protect that community’s and its members. If I am a law-abiding citizen, I don’t care if the government fines a million dollar the violation of a traffic red light; it is like I am not concerned at all, because I know I will never do it; in another hand, it would be a very deterring punishment for the non law-abiding citizen.

Brother Andrea;
Usually when we fear something, we do everything possible to stay away from it; however that is not the case with Allah (SWT), we fear Him, but we do everything possible to be close to Him. We fear Him but we love Him. Our fear of Him is for our own interest in this life because it helps us put another barrier between the wicked Satan and us.
Brother Andrea;
I don’t think you would like to edit the Bible and remove anything related to the fear of God. A God fearing society (or a family) is a society (or a family) living in happiness.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[discipleofJesus]

Another important note, Old Testament punishments were limited, for a **specific time ** and situation.

However, Islam commands punishments for theives, apostates (i.e. killing apostates) etc for all time.

 

[inJESUS]

the point is, no muslim can guaranty that allah will accept him. It’s always up to allah to choose whoever he wants. Allah’s mercy is only shown after you die. When mohammads followers asked him if they will see allah, he promised nothing and said that he himself is not sure…a prophet of allah not sure if allah will accept him. All you have to do is good deeds so that your angel can write them down…you wait till you die to see if the balance goes to good deeds or bad deeds. On earth, no assurance…just wishful thinking that allah will accept you. Fear comes from lack of assurance.

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam Brother DOJ;

discipleofJesus:

Another important note, Old Testament punishments were limited, for a **specific time ** and situation.
However, Islam commands punishments for theives, apostates (i.e. killing apostates) etc for all time.

I came across the verses below, I would be grateful to you if you can help me out understand their meaning. Thanks.

  "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill" (Mt 5:17)

  "For verily I say unto you, **Till heaven and earth pass**, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, **till all be fulfilled**" (Mt 5:18)

  "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven".(Mt 5:19)

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[Faith101]

inJESUS:

the point is, no muslim can guaranty that allah will accept him. It’s always up to allah to choose whoever he wants. Allah’s mercy is only shown after you die. When mohammads followers asked him if they will see allah, he promised nothing and said that he himself is not sure…a prophet of allah not sure if allah will accept him. All you have to do is good deeds so that your angel can write them down…you wait till you die to see if the balance goes to good deeds or bad deeds. On earth, no assurance…just wishful thinking that allah will accept you. Fear comes from lack of assurance.

Some of the Prophet’s companions were promised Paradise even while they lived on this earth.

We all depend on the mercy of God, b/c our deeds will never be enough to deserve Paradise.

What is your point? Are you saying that you know for a fact that you are going to paraidse? You dont even know how your life will end…mann…whats the point of a judgment day then…forget that…whats the point of continuing to live?

 

[Joseph_Alison]

inJESUS:

the point is, no muslim can guaranty that allah will accept him. It’s always up to allah to choose whoever he wants. Allah’s mercy is only shown after you die. When mohammads followers asked him if they will see allah, he promised nothing and said that he himself is not sure…a prophet of allah not sure if allah will accept him. All you have to do is good deeds so that your angel can write them down…you wait till you die to see if the balance goes to good deeds or bad deeds. On earth, no assurance…just wishful thinking that allah will accept you. Fear comes from lack of assurance.

Salaam Brother InJESUS;
I don’t know if the above is your own conclusion after research and study or it is our fault we fail to convey the true message of Islam.
Anyway, this is your opinion and even if I don’t agree with it, I respect it.

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[discipleofJesus]

Joseph_Alison:

Salaam Brother DOJ;

I came across the verses below, I would be grateful to you if you can help me out understand their meaning. Thanks.

  "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill" (Mt 5:17)

  "For verily I say unto you, **Till heaven and earth pass**, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, **till all be fulfilled**" (Mt 5:18)

  "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven".(Mt 5:19)

Salaam.
Joseph.

Salaam Joseph,

I am a bit busy at the moment, but i will try to help you understand the meanining of these verses soon.

For the time being, please check out this article

“How Jesus Christ fulfills the Old Testament
An Analysis of Matthew 5:17-20”
by James M. Arlandson
answering-islam.org/Authors/Arlandson/fulfilled.htm

I recall it explained these verses pretty well.

 

[inJESUS]

We all depend on the mercy of God, b/c our deeds will never be enough to deserve Paradise.

exactly. So you will wish God will accept you, yet there is this constant fear inside you that maybe you are not worthy enough. The difference between our conception of God is that God indeed showed his mercy, here on earth, and saved all by this mercy because as you said, OUR DEEDS WILL NEVER BE ENOUGH. So God told us this and proved his mercy by saving us all. Your free-will lies in rejecting or accepting your salvation. However, your allah already knows that your deeds are NOT enough, yet he says: wait till you die to see my mercy?? is here REALLY merciful? how can he know you wont make it by yourself and then judge you? how do youfind this fair and where is your freedom of choice here? i call this dictatorship.

What is your point? Are you saying that you know for a fact that you are going to paraidse?

i know for a fact that if i accept God’s salvation and work according to Jesus’ teachings, i am saved.

You dont even know how your life will end…mann…

correct…if one day i reject Gods salvation , i wont be saved. Free-will…but as long as am with Jesus, he will never abandon me, just like he promised : i am with you till the end of days …am stading at your door, if u open to me, i’ll enter and have dinner with you…it is us who abandon God, not the opposite.

whats the point of a judgment day then…

judgment day is for those who rejected God’s salvation…not to Jesus’ followers…i mean “true followers”…remember the thief at the cross? when he said to Jesus : Lord remember me in your paradise, Jesus on the spot told him : today you’ll be with me in Paradise. Jesus’ answer is very clear : believing in Jesus, you’ll be with him when you die. No fear .

forget that…whats the point of continuing to live?

for us, life is NOT a test. Why does God need to put a test if he already knows the outcome? for Christians and accordng to Jesus, our kingdom of heaven starts on earth…that is, thru our intimate relationship with God, we start making our bridge to him, until we meet him later.