The Islamist Attack on Intellectual Property- what does Islam offer?

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Mr.MugenOne,

That article is an example of Islamophobia and disinformation.

Now let me show you what others have to say:

In his book New Researches into Compositions and Exegesis of the Qur’an **Dr. Hartwig Hirschfeld ** says:

**"We must not be surprised to find the Qur’an the fountainhead of sciences. Every subject connected with heaven or earth, human life, commerce and various trades are occasionally touched upon and this gave rise to the production of numerous monographs forming commentaries on parts of the Holy (Noble) Book.

In this way the Qur’an was responsible for great discussions, and to it was indirectly due to the marvelous development of all branches of science in the Muslim world. This again not only affected the Arabs, but also induced Jewish philosophers to treat metaphysical and religious questions after Arab methods"** (Hirschfeld, 1902)

George Sarton, a Professor in the history of science at Harvard University, stated in his book The Life of Science that:
**The foundations of science were laid for us by the Mesopotamian civilization (present day Iraq) whose scholars and scientists were their priests. The second development in science came through the Greeks. The third stage of development, however, is to be credited to the meteoric rise of Islam. For nearly four hundred years Islam led the scientific world as, from Spain to India the great body of past knowledge was exchanged between Muslim scholars and carried forward with new discoveries and new ideas. Scholars in Christendom, from about the eleventh century, were mainly occupied for over two hundred years in translating from Arabic into Latin.

Thus Islam paved the way for the European Renaissance, which in turn led to science’s fourth great development in the modem world.**(Sarton. 1971, pp. 146-166)

Karen Armstrong, the author of “Holy War”, says,
“This fact has never been acknowledged in the west that all the scientific and technological development that we have today, we owe it to the Arabs and Muslims”.

Prince Charles, Heir to the *British Monarchy * in a recent public speech at Oxford University stated:

**“If there is much misunderstanding in the West about the nature of Islam, there is also much ignorance about the debt our own culture and civilisation owe to the Islamic world. It is a failure, which stems, I think, from the straight-jacket of history, which we have inherited. The medieval Islamic world, from central Asia to the shores of the Atlantic, was a world where scholars and men of learning flourished. But because we have tended to see Islam as the enemy of the West, as an alien culture, society, and system of belief, we have tended to ignore or erase its great relevance to our own history.” **

[muslimheritage.com/about/default.cfm]](http://www.muslimheritage.com/about/default.cfm])
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Muslims scholars propagated Greek, Roman, Persian, Indian and Egyptian science. Basically they took the science and mathematics of conquered peoples and developed it ‘a little’. But they stagnated in the 13th century. Muslims have done nothing significant since then.

There are three issues:
  1. Muslim science was basically the science of conquered peoples.
  2. Applied science was negligible.
  3. Muslims haven’t done anything significant for 800 years.
We are indebted to the Muslims for propagating and keeping alive the science of the Greeks, for without them much of the Greek science would be unknown to us. But let us not kid ourselves that the foundation of science is Muslim. It is not. Muslims are but a link in the chain, and a link now long past.

Ciubate,
Rodrigo
 
Rodrigo Bivar:
. But let us not kid ourselves that the foundation of science is Muslim. It is not. Muslims are but a link in the chain, and a link now long past.
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Mr. Rodrigo,

First of all you are talking nonsense because Arabs/Muslims did develope a lot and gave due credit to all those previous sources wherever and whenever they used them.

If you say that Arabs/Muslims’ scientific/intellectual/philosophical contribution was merely “little” and all they did was propagation of Greek, Roman, Persian, Indian and Egyptian science, then why the West bothered to translate Arab/Muslim heritage from Arabic to Latin and then into other West’s languages, instead of translating/utilizing directly from the Greek, Roman, Persian, Indian and Egyptian science? Why West had to even retain Arabic words given by Arabs/Muslim such as Algebra and Algorithm etc. instead of using some other Greek/Indian terms if their science/math was indeed in existence and developed? Did Arabs?Muslims invade Greece and Rome too? Even when they expand their rule to Iran/India did they destroy non-Muslims’ scientific heritage like how Pagans destroy the Original copies of the Bible? Who destroy the Library of Alexandria?

Now, why Avicenna’s (Ibn Sina’s) most famous medical book "Al-Canon was translated from Arabic into European languages and taught in the Western Universities for centuries? And still his principles are being taught in American Medical Universities. Are you telling me that very few biased people like you, aware of true history of Arabs/Muslims/European more than those renowned experts/historians/professors even of the West?

What you are doing is merely making fool out of yourself by uttering nonsense.

Here is a qoute from Catholic Encyclopedia:

Avicenna
"(ABN ALI AL HOSAIN IBN ABDALLAH IBN SINA, called by the Latins AVICENNA).

**Arabian physician and philosopher, born at Kharmaithen, in the province of Bokhara, 980; died at Hamadan, in Northern Persia, 1037. [Note: Avicenna was actually Persian, not Arabian.]

From the autobiographical sketch which has come down to us we learn that he was a very precocious youth; at the age of ten he knew the Koran by heart; before he was sixteen he had mastered what was to be learned of physics, mathematics, logic, and metaphysics; at the age of sixteen he began the study and practice of medicine; and before he had completed his twenty-first year he wrote his famous “Canon” of medical science, which for several centuries, after his time, remained the principal authority in medical schools both in Europe and in Asia.

He served successively several Persian potentates as physician and adviser, travelling with them from place to place, and despite the habits of conviviality for which he was well known, devoted much time to literary labours, as is testified by the hundred volumes which he wrote. Our authority for the foregoing facts is the “Life of Avicenna,”, based on his autobiography, written by his disciple Jorjani (Sorsanus), and published in the early Latin editions of his works."**

Note: The above passage is taken from Online Catholic Encyclopedia:
newadvent.org/cathen/02157a.htm
 
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Justice2006:
Mr. Rodrigo,

First of all you are talking nonsense because Arabs/Muslims did develope a lot and gave due credit to all those previous sources wherever and whenever they used them.
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Really? Like they gave due credit for algebra and Hindu numerals and the invention of zero?
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Justice2006:
If you say that Arabs/Muslims’ scientific/intellectual/philosophical contribution was merely “little” and all they did was propagation of Greek, Roman, Persian, Indian and Egyptian science, then why the West bothered to translate Arab/Muslim heritage from Arabic to Latin and then into other West’s languages, instead of translating/utilizing directly from the Greek, Roman, Persian, Indian and Egyptian science?
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Because those countries (except India at that time, and Italy) were over-run by Muslims and their scientific heritage was lost to the Europeans. The Byzantine empire – i.e. Greco-Roman, was lost to the Europeans, and their scientific heritage with it.
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Justice2006:
Why West had to even retain Arabic words given by Arabs/Muslim such as Algebra and Algorithm etc. instead of using some other Greek/Indian terms if their science/math was indeed in existence and developed?
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Because the European scientists of the Middle-Age only had Arabic manuscripts and translations and they thought those were the inventions of the Arabs. But now we know this is not the case.

The inventor of algebra were the Egyptians who passed it to the Babylonians, then the Greeks, then the Hindus, then the Arabs.

The Arabs were only the 5th people who worked algebra. Now you claim this ‘invention’ when al-Khawizmi only translated the algebra of the Hindus. Did you know that al-Khawizmi visited India where he learned mathematics from the Hindus and translated the works of Aryabhata into Arabic?

The Europeans translated Khawizmi’s Arabic translation into Latin and thought he was the inventor. However, he was only the translator of Hindu mathematics.

uwalumni.com/onwisconsin/summer02/laska.html
Approximately 2,200 years before Mohammed was born, Ahmes wrote the Rhind papyrus, which described the Egyptian mathematics system and their methods of multiplication, division, and algebra (albeit in simple equations). He was followed by Thales, Pythagorus, Euclid, Archimedes, Erasasthenes, Ptolemy, Diophantus (known as “the father of algebra”), Pappus, and Aryabhata the Elder, who described the Indian numerical system, which used the decimal system and the symbols 1 through 9 and 0.
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About 820 A.D., Muhammad Ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi, a Muslim from an area now called Uzbekistan, translated the work of Aryabhata into Arabic. The Indian numerical system, which the Arab mathematician called Hindustat, became known as the Hindu-Arabic numerical system and later as the Arabic number system after al-Khwarizmi’s work was translated into Latin. It was eventually accepted as the European standard. Much of al-Khwarizmi’s work was written in a book titled al Kitab al-mukhatasar fi hisab al-jabr wa’l-muqabalah. He also wrote a treatise on algebra. It is from the titles of these writings and his name that the words algebra and algorithm are derived. As a result of his work, al-Khwarizmi is known as the “second father of algebra” and is regarded as the most outstanding mathematician of his time. Arabic mathematicians also translated Greek classics, including Euclid’s Elements and Ptolemy’s Syntaxis Mathematica into Arabic.
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Justice2006:
Did Arabs?Muslims invade Greece and Rome too?
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See above about the Byzantine empire.
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Justice2006:
Even when they expand their rule to Iran/India did they destroy non-Muslims’ scientific heritage like how Pagans destroy the Original copies of the Bible?
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They translated and copied the works of conquered peoples. Please refer to the ‘House of Wisdom’.
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Justice2006:
Who destroy the Library of Alexandria?
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We’re talking about how the Arabs acquired their knowledge, not the destruction of knowledge.

cont
 
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Justice2006:
Now, why Avicenna’s (Ibn Sina’s) most famous medical book "Al-Canon was translated from Arabic into European languages and taught in the Western Universities for centuries? And still his principles are being taught in American Medical Universities. Are you telling me that very few biased people like you, aware of true history of Arabs/Muslims/European more than those renowned experts/historians/professors even of the West?
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Ibn Sina was a heretic – refer to al-Ghazali denunciation.

He was also a neo-Platonic, neo-Aristotelian thinker – which is incompatible with Islam.

smcm.edu/users/tbalton/intellect.htm

Besides, I’m not referring to just one man or a few scientists - I’m making the general case. I do agree Ibn Sina did make some valuable contribution to science but I’m questioning the claim that the foundations of Western science is Muslim.
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Justice2006:
What you are doing is merely making fool out of yourself by uttering nonsense.
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I don’t think so, bud.

I will refer you to this article:

How Greek Science Passed to the Arabs, by the historian De Lacy O’Leary.

evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/oleary01.htm

If you want to discuss Muslim ‘scientists’ I’ll be more than happy to oblige.

Nos vemos después
Rodrigo
 
The library of Alexandria was burned by Caliph Omar because he considered it as haraam. In 640 AD the Moslems finally took the city of Alexandria. Upon learning of “a great library containing all the knowledge of the world” the conquering general Amrouh supposedly asked Caliph Omar for instructions. The Caliph has been quoted as saying of the Library’s holdings, “they will either contradict the Koran, in which case they are heresy, or they will agree with it, so they are superfluous.”
 
Mr. Rodrigo,

It is just recently that some bias Hindus when thier anti-Muslim, Hindu fundamentalist party (whose members have burned alive Muslims and Christian missionaries in India) came into power (but with coalition with other parties), tried to re-write the Indian history from their biased orange Hindutva view/angle to discredit Islam/Muslim heritage by hook or by crook. But guess what? no sincere learned Hindu historian accepted their nonsense foolish efforts. History is out there and available to all those who are interested.

As far Western historians, I don’t think they are as foolish and bias as few people like you or some fundamentist Hindus are.

As far Avicenna, although he effected by Greek philisophy but Al-Ghazzali’s challange was purely religious to protect Islamic ideology from all foreign elements and fight Greek influence thus he did not forgive anyone who knowingly or unkowingly interjected un-Islamic philosophies in the realm of Islam. Al-Ghazzali was a revivalist and his logic/literature even helped people of other faiths to fight non-religious ideologies. But this does not mean that his opinion towards Avicenna, makes Avicenna, a heretic or murtad. No!. Avicenna was a Muslim and his faith as a Muslim was firm. He was a scientist, philosopher and mathematician of high cliber. Just read his *Al-Cannon * (book of Medicine) and there you will see, he begins every chapter with the first verse of the Koran and send supplications to the last Prophet and Prophets of God.

Difference of opinion in the area of philosophical thought means nothing in Islam as long as it does not effect the basic foundation of Islam (the main tenets of Islam) as Islam does not have One Man Show of Papacy-ism/Worship-ism. Then, it is not certain that Avicenna had same philosophical views throughout his life. Have you heard about Dr. Iqbal? His views of his early life were not same as his later developed philosophical thought which made him Poet of the East/Poet of Islam.

Well, I am not interested in going into details with you, as you are not a right person in my eye to waste my time on you. I can only recommend you to read a lot but unbiased Western and Indian history but take out your bias anti-Islam glasses first.

.
 
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Justice2006:
Mr. Rodrigo,

It is just recently that some bias Hindus when thier anti-Muslim, Hindu fundamentalist party (whose members have burned alive Muslims and Christian missionaries in India) came into power (but with coalition with other parties), tried to re-write the Indian history from their biased orange Hindutva view/angle to discredit Islam/Muslim heritage by hook or by crook. But guess what? no sincere learned Hindu historian accepted their nonsense foolish efforts. History is out there and available to all those who are interested.
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Hola Mr Justice2006,
I’m not Indian nor a Hindu and I haven’t read those polemics.
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Justice2006:
As far Western historians, I don’t think they are as foolish and bias as few people like you or some fundamentist Hindus are.
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It doesn’t help your case to insult me. Really it doesn’t. But if it makes you feel better I’m happy to take your insults.
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Justice2006:
As far Avicenna, although he effected by Greek philisophy but Al-Ghazzali’s challange was purely religious to protect Islamic ideology from all foreign elements and fight Greek influence thus he did not forgive anyone who knowingly or unkowingly interjected un-Islamic philosophies in the realm of Islam. Al-Ghazzali was a revivalist and his logic/literature even helped people of other faiths to fight non-religious ideologies. But this does not mean that his opinion towards Avicenna, makes Avicenna, a heretic or murtad. No!. Avicenna was a Muslim and his faith as a Muslim was firm. He was a scientist, philosopher and mathematician of high cliber.
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I’m not claiming Ibn Sina wasn’t a great scientist, philosopher and mathematician. I’m saying three things:
  1. Muslims such as Al-Ghazali considered him a heretic because he espoused ideas anathema to Islam. This story about Al-Ghazali and Ibn Sina is well known. Some say it was the cause of the end of the Muslim ‘Golden Age’.
  2. Don’t you even see Ibn Sina owed a debt to Plato and Aristotle who were GREEKS? This means Ibn Sina was the link in the chain between the Greeks and the Western scientists. But please acknowledge his part in the chain. Acknowledge his debt to Plato and Aristotle too. Don’t claim Ibn Sina as some great achiever in science while ignoring Plato and Aristotle. Ibn Sina freely admired and admitted his debt to the Greeks. It is a shame modern Muslims don’t see this.
  3. I’m making a general case.
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Justice2006:
Just read his Al-Cannon (book of Medicine) and there you will see, he begins every chapter with the first verse of the Koran and send supplications to the last Prophet and Prophets of God.
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That doesn’t prove anything as most of the works of the House of Wisdom all do the same thing.
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Justice2006:
Difference of opinion in the area of philosophical thought means nothing in Islam as long as it does not effect the basic foundation of Islam (the main tenets of Islam) as Islam does not have One Man Show of Papacy-ism/Worship-ism. Then, it is not certain that Avicenna had same philosophical views throughout his life. Have you heard about Dr. Iqbal? His view in his early life were not same as his later developed philosophical thought which made him Poet of the East/Poet of Islam.
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But when that difference in opinion is so profound as to cause Ibn Sina to be attacked as a heretic by Al-Ghazali it is significant. And like I said, some people claim Al-Ghazali’s attack on Ibn Sina spelled the end of the Muslim Golden Age and the turning away of Islam from science to scripture.
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Justice2006:
Well, I am not interested in going to details with you, as you are not the right person in my eye to waste my time on you. I can only recommend you to read a lot but unbiased Western and Indian history but take out your bias anti-Islam glasses first.
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What a shame.

Adios amigo,
Rodrigo
 
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Justice2006:
Even when they expand their rule to Iran/India did they destroy non-Muslims’ scientific heritage like how Pagans destroy the Original copies of the Bible? Who destroy the Library of Alexandria?
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It was the Arab Islamic armies on command of one of the Caliphs of Islam, which destroyed the Library of Alexandria when they beseiged and conquered the capital of Egypt and center of the Roman-Byzantine government.

This proof tells us Islam does not like scientific or historical heritage of non-Muslims. We can see what the Taliban regime in Afganistan did to the statues of Buddha in Bamiyan, a historical relic of the past. Those statues were utterly destroyed so as to erase history that Afganistan was once a Buddhist nation.
 
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MugenOne:
"Imagine: over a billion people, and they have fewer patents in their entire recorded history than did the citizens of Utah last year. "

MugenOne

realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-2_28_06_TL.html
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There’s one problem with the article: Does it list even a single source for the claim that radical islamists reject technology? I’ve never heard of any religious prohibition on using technology, even by the fascist islamist movement.

It seems to me the author is making an error in reasoning. Just because fanatical movements come from parts of the world where technological development is lacking does not mean that they embrace the low-tech lifestyle. Could you perhaps find something about the islamist view towards technology, mugenone?

Murtad,

Theodosius the Great burned the Library, at least based on the evidence we have. It was long gone by the time Umar showed up, and at least according to the Catholic encyclopedia, the sources from 600 years later that accuse the muslims of burning the library are totally discredited:newadvent.org/cathen/01303a.htm
 
Originally posted by Justice2000
“It is just recently that some bias Hindus when thier anti-Muslim, Hindu fundamentalist party (whose members have burned alive Muslims and Christian missionaries in India) came into power (but with coalition with other parties), tried to re-write the Indian history from their biased orange Hindutva view/angle to discredit Islam/Muslim heritage by hook or by crook. But guess what? no sincere learned Hindu historian accepted their nonsense foolish efforts. History is out there and available to all those who are interested.”

I am Indian though not Hindu-this is garbage. Hindu Fundamentalist loonies attack Mosques built on old Hindu temples which were destroyed by Muslim invaders in the 14th century. There is no question that the legacy of intellectual knowledge built up in this country comes from Hindu’s.
 
Hindu Fundamentalist loonies attack Mosques built on old Hindu temples which were destroyed by Muslim invaders in the 14th century.
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You don’t think that this is looney itself? To attack a place of worship for people living today based on what some of their ancestors did 700 years ago?

If mexico’s indigenous people attack and burn the Cathedral in Mexico City, are you going to say “Hey, they are after all only attacking a church built on top of their temples in the 17th century”?
There is no question that the legacy of intellectual knowledge built up in this country comes from Hindu’s.
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There’s no question that both participated. Shah Jahan did much to improve India, and the Mughals there were generally experienced and skillful emperors. To say that all of the learning in India is from hindus when hindus did not rule most of the land for half a century before the British is revisionist. And one thing the mughals did bring to India that was sorely needed was a religion that opposed the disgraceful and human-rights violating caste system, along with the practice of sati.

Hindu culture and learning certainly had good points, but a religion which teaches slavery by birth and self-immolation can always use exposure to a reforming power.
 
Obviously it is idiotic to try to break down a mosque because it was built on a Temple hundreds of years ago. I hold no brief for Hindu Fundamentalists.They are like any other narrow minded bigoted people who think with spite and cheap ego. Still though the Mugal kings were benevolent rulers with the exception of Aurangazeb, the intellectual creativity of the original people of this country can never be denied. Today too, we have great engineers and scientists and writers and this list includes muslims.Many of our greatest film stars, poets and musicians are muslims! I think Mr pro Universal it depends upon the country you live in. India is a democracy and truely respects all religions.
 
Today too, we have great engineers and scientists and writers and this list includes muslims.Many of our greatest film stars, poets and musicians are muslims! I think Mr pro Universal it depends upon the country you live in. India is a democracy and truely respects all religions.
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I can agree to that. Every country has its problems of course, but I agree and find much admirable in the way India has dealt with religion and transitioning towards more freedoms.
 
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undeserving:
Obviously it is idiotic to try to break down a mosque because it was built on a Temple hundreds of years ago.
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Dear undeserving,

But the very view that Mosque was built on a Temple is baseless. This Temple only exist in the minds of some politically motivated fundamentalist Hindus. There is no historical nor Archeological proof that a certain Hindu diety/God was born at the Mosque site and that there was a temple there.

No unbias Hindu historian or archeologist or researcher buy the idea/claim of those politically motivated fundamentalist Hindus.

God bless you.
.
 
Mate,

How about a big mosque in Istanbul that used to be St. Sophia church? Or the Damascus mosque that “has” John the Baptist head?
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Justice2006:
Dear undeserving,

But the very view that Mosque was built on a Temple is baseless. This Temple only exist in the minds of some politically motivated fundamentalist Hindus. There is no historical nor Archeological proof that a certain Hindu diety/God was born at the Mosque site and that there was a temple there.

No unbias Hindu historian or archeologist or researcher buy the idea/claim of those politically motivated fundamentalist Hindus.

God bless you.
.
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Justice2006:
Dear undeserving,

But the very view that Mosque was built on a Temple is baseless. This Temple only exist in the minds of some politically motivated fundamentalist Hindus. There is no historical nor Archeological proof that a certain Hindu diety/God was born at the Mosque site and that there was a temple there.

No unbias Hindu historian or archeologist or researcher buy the idea/claim of those politically motivated fundamentalist Hindus.

God bless you.
.
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The jury is still out on this-however remember that Ayodhya where the mosque/temple exists is an intensely sentimental place for all Hindu’s, it is where Lord Ram was supposedly born.
 
Just out of curiosity, what are some of the inventions from the Muslim world?

I’m asking this because the talkshow host, Michael Medved mentioned on his show the other day that his father had seven patents to his name. He compared that with the whole of Pakistan which has had just 8 within the same amount of time.
 
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