The isolation of sceptics

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A person is happy when drunk because his conscience and rationality become weak and simple….

How can a weak conscience and weak rationality be a recipe for happiness?
It isn’t a recipe of happiness, it happens that those who are drunk forget and escape the reality of their problems which make them happy during that phase.
What is the** rational** basis of love and goodness in a Godless universe?
Love, goodness, morality, all existed before Christianity, there is atheistic religions that promoted these things, it’s obvious that when you love, you avoid hurt, you seek goodness and happiness for others just because we can physically feel, we are able to recognize what others feel too and try to seek happiness with them

It’s all about feelings, and i’s not bounded only in humans, this is scientifically explained naturally without the use of gods and supernaturals.

Where is the goodness in a Godly universe? That’s the question would be, with all that misery and pain around I fail to see how can an all loving powerful god exists. Free will, it just doesn’t explain a lot.

God’s rules in any religion aren’t in fact God’s rules, they are men rules, morality isn’t the same in every religion even among the same religious parties, Catholic dogma is different from Sharia laws or other kind of rules and the list goes on for other faiths.
 
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**God’s rules in any religion aren’t in fact God’s rules, they are men rules, morality isn’t the same in every religion even among the same religious parties, Catholic dogma is different from Sharia laws or other kind of rules and the list goes on for other faiths. **

There are differences in morality among all the religions. But they all are intended to serve the same end … glorifying God. Would you say all religions are useless because they differ from each other? Isn’t that a bit like saying all doctors are useless who disagree with each other about how to glorify our good health? Would you say that all governments are useless because they differ about how to glorify governing? Would you say all musicians and artists are useless because they differ about how to glorify the beautiful?

God’s rules are not just rules made up by men unless you can prove there is no God, which you cannot do. 😉 Since the vast majority of the human race have always believed in God, the burden of proof that there is no God who makes rules for us to live by is on you, not on those who believe. But there is a notable lack of such proof. The existence of evil in the world does not prove there is no God. It only proves there is a Devil as well as a God. And yes, despite your protests to the contrary, free will is very much a part of the equation of life. I have noticed something very odd about the atheist outlook. It demands the freedom to be out from under the rule of God, then turns around and argues there is no freedom anyway because there is no free will.

Go figure. :confused:
 
What is the* rational***
basis of love and goodness in a Godless universe?
Love, goodness, morality, all existed before Christianity, there is atheistic religions that promoted these things, it’s obvious that when you love, you avoid hurt, you seek goodness and happiness for others just because we can physically feel, we are able to recognize what others feel too and try to seek happiness with them

It’s all about feelings, and i’s not bounded only in humans, this is scientifically explained naturally without the use of gods and supernaturals.
If it’s all about feelings no one has a rational basis for love and goodness!
Where is the goodness in a Godly universe? That’s the question would be, with all that misery and pain around I fail to see how can an all loving powerful god exists. Free will, it just doesn’t explain a lot.
Of course it doesn’t. There is also the element of chance. Unfortunate coincidences are bound to occur in any immensely complex universe.
God’s rules in any religion aren’t in fact God’s rules, they are men rules, morality isn’t the same in every religion even among the same religious parties, Catholic dogma is different from Sharia laws or other kind of rules and the list goes on for other faiths.
The fundamental principles of religions are the same throughout the world - as demonstrated by Aldous Huxley in his classic The Perennial Philosophy.
 
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**God’s rules in any religion aren’t in fact God’s rules, they are men rules, morality isn’t the same in every religion even among the same religious parties, Catholic dogma is different from Sharia laws or other kind of rules and the list goes on for other faiths. **

There are differences in morality among all the religions. But they all are intended to serve the same end … glorifying God. Would you say all religions are useless because they differ from each other? Isn’t that a bit like saying all doctors are useless who disagree with each other about how to glorify our good health? Would you say that all governments are useless because they differ about how to glorify governing? Would you say all musicians and artists are useless because they differ about how to glorify the beautiful?

God’s rules are not just rules made up by men unless you can prove there is no God, which you cannot do. 😉 Since the vast majority of the human race have always believed in God, the burden of proof that there is no God who makes rules for us to live by is on you, not on those who believe. But there is a notable lack of such proof. The existence of evil in the world does not prove there is no God. It only proves there is a Devil as well as a God. And yes, despite your protests to the contrary, free will is very much a part of the equation of life. I have noticed something very odd about the atheist outlook. It demands the freedom to be out from under the rule of God, then turns around and argues there is no freedom anyway because there is no free will.

Go figure. :confused:
Not all religions are intended to serve God, there is religions with no god, others with many gods, I don’t think if there is a god he want to be glorified like any selfish narcissistic being, if so I would be glad to disobey such a god.

I said that religious morality is different due to social differences and men rules and desires, this has nothing to do with gods.

The burden proof in everything is upon those who claim the existence of something, not the other way around, because if so, you as a Catholic would have to physically disprove the billions of gods ever existed, but you can’t, it’s a negative approach, that doesn’t mean they exist.
User124;9692618:
If it’s all about feelings
no one has a rational basis for love and goodness!

Of course it doesn’t. There is also the element of chance. Unfortunate coincidences are bound to occur in any immensely complex universe.

The fundamental principles of religions are the same throughout the world - as demonstrated by Aldous Huxley in his classic The Perennial Philosophy.

In many cases religious morality is an insult to ethics, I very much doubt that a god who made this magnificent universe, billions of galaxies, would be be so weak minded to demand from a single specie on a small planet, to no masturbate, or to go to confession, or to pray many times a day, wear a veil, fast for holidays, do not use contraception, and a lot of other complex rules which are probably made by religious authorities and prophets in previous times who claim so well what gods want them to do, I notice it always fits their desires.
 
User
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In many cases religious morality is an insult to ethics, I very much doubt that a god who made this magnificent universe, billions of galaxies, would be be so weak minded to demand from a single specie on a small planet, to no masturbate, or to go to confession, or to pray many times a day, wear a veil, fast for holidays, do not use contraception, and a lot of other complex rules which are probably made by religious authorities and prophets in previous times who claim so well what gods want them to do, I notice it always fits their desires. **

By this logic, why wouldn’t it be just as logical to say that the atheists do not want there to be a God because they does not want to be bound by any will other than their own, which "always fits their desires."

I don’t think if there is a god he want to be glorified like any selfish narcissistic being, if so I would be glad to disobey such a god.


Again, you have got it upside down, or inside out. God does not need to be glorified …** but we need to glorify God! **

The burden proof in everything is upon those who claim the existence of something, not the other way around, because if so, you as a Catholic would have to physically disprove the billions of gods ever existed, but you can’t, it’s a negative approach, that doesn’t mean they exist.

Being convinced there can be but one God, why would I need to disprove the existence of a million other gods?

But if you can’t even disprove the existence of one God, what does that say for the power of reason to bolster atheism?

The burden of proof is on proving something exists, and it is also on proving that something does not exist. Theoretically, I could prove that Santa Claus does not exist by inventing an instrument that would search for him everywhere and find him nowhere. But you cannot even theoretically invent a logic that disproves the existence of God, for the simple reason that reason is limited in its powers.
 
User
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In many cases religious morality is an insult to ethics, I very much doubt that a god who made this magnificent universe, billions of galaxies, would be be so weak minded to demand from a single specie on a small planet, to no masturbate, or to go to confession, or to pray many times a day, wear a veil, fast for holidays, do not use contraception, and a lot of other complex rules which are probably made by religious authorities and prophets in previous times who claim so well what gods want them to do, I notice it always fits their desires**.

By this logic, why wouldn’t it be just as logical to say that the atheists do not want there to be a God because they does not want to be bound by any will other than their own, which "always fits their desires."

I don’t think if there is a god he want to be glorified like any selfish narcissistic being, if so I would be glad to disobey such a god.


Again, you have got it upside down, or inside out. God does not need to be glorified …** but we need to glorify God! **

The burden proof in everything is upon those who claim the existence of something, not the other way around, because if so, you as a Catholic would have to physically disprove the billions of gods ever existed, but you can’t, it’s a negative approach, that doesn’t mean they exist.

Being convinced there can be but one God, why would I need to disprove the existence of a million other gods?

But if you can’t even disprove the existence of one God, what does that say for the power of reason to bolster atheism?

The burden of proof is on proving something exists, and it is also on proving that something does not exist. Theoretically, I could prove that Santa Claus does not exist by inventing an instrument that would search for him everywhere and find him nowhere. But you cannot even theoretically invent a logic that disproves the existence of God, for the simple reason that reason is limited in its powers.
Atheism is a disbelief, it doesn’t need to be proved, I already mentioned why, you keep repeating the same point that atheists should prove that there is no god.

Following your logic, you as a Catholic you need to physically disprove every deity and every character of fiction ever existed in our societies.

Desires have nothing to do in seeking the truth, every skeptic knows that, there is plenty of other reasons to disbelieve outside desires, even some non believers desire to believe by they can’t because they know it isn’t true.

People can be theists, believers and even religious, and do whatever they want, then ask God’s forgiveness, you don’t have to convince yourself that there is no god to do what you want, that’s silly.
 
Those who reject spiritual reality condemn themselves to mental isolation. They believe no one ever knows precisely what they are thinking or feeling.
That second sentence is a puzzling assertion to me. If a non-believer still believes in the possibility of communication with others–whether perfect communication, or imperfect–then he has no reason to be absolutely pessimistic about being understood, or to believe in his total isolation.

I think your most greatest adversary in these thoughts is Epicurus, who put a great emphasis on friends and on living in a community of like-minded believers. He drew great comfort from his relationships with others.
worst punishment that can be inflicted on anyone is solitary confinement. Mental solitude is far worse because there is a constant barrier between oneself and others which lasts to the moment of death. It is a foretaste of hell…
There is truth in that – I’ve read an infant deprived of affection or of human contact will die, even if it is nourished properly-- but the great truth of that assertion is as regards our fellow human beings. This does not thereby prove that faith in God is absolutely necessary for one not to feel alone.
stark contrast to this self-inflicted punishment Christians and members of other religions are never alone. They are not always aware of God’s presence but in times of joy or sorrow they can express their gratitude or their anguish. They can pray for help and consolation - and even ask for a miracle. They don’t live in an indifferent universe but are sustained by divine love.
Hope was an Epicurean virtue, I believe. Hope and optimism are possible even to non-believers. For example, an Epicurean would focus on the fact that, though the universe does not “love” you, per se, neither does the universe hate you. There is no one “out there” who hates you, or who is trying to hurt you (nor did the Epicurean believe in hell or the devil). Another element of his optimism is that, in his mind, to live is to experience pleasure, but there is nothing terrible in not living. He no more feared the time after his death than he would have looked back in pain or anguish at the time before he was born. This was the ultimate optimistic assertion – life is pleasant, but there is nothing unpleasant in not living. Based on this optimistic point of view, Epicureans were not known as having committed suicide out of despair. They celebrated life. As Epicurus put it, “Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist.” You will never know death, according to him; all you will ever know is life.
have other sources of help and consolation. We believe in the Communion of Saints which binds us to all who have tried to do God’s Will and love others as Jesus loved - and loves - us. The Saints do not know eveything but when they answer our prayers they must know we have prayed to them. We are physically separated from our loved ones who have died but we are spiritually united to them forever.
Epicurus once wrote, “sweet is the memory of a dead friend.” Life is a celebration with those one loves, who live on in one’s memory, even when they are gone. They will always be a part of us–indeed, “always be with us,” as Christ said–for as long as we live. And they too lived in communities, drawing support from like-minded friends. They helped each other and looked out for each others’ basic needs. They treated each other as brothers and sisters.
are not always entirely responsible for their pessimism. In a secular society there are many obstacles to belief in God yet non-believers suffer loneliness unnecessarily. If they admit even the possibility that materialism is false they need no longer feel isolated.
If they are wanting more, yearning for more, and cannot be happy unless God exists, then maybe they should believe in something more. Not everyone has this need, I believe. Or, similarly, there are some who don’t know whether God exists or not, but don’t consider this question to be of practical importance for their happiness in life and love of neighbor.

You may think those individuals are short-sighted or missing something in their lives, and you may be right – or mistaken.
one is justified in giving up every vestige of hope…
To give up hope is to succumb to despair. And what is the profit of succumbing to despair? It’s simply that this hope takes different forms. The non-believer has his own consolations – that he is part of the human family, which will live on after him, for example. A social reformer can take comfort in the fact that, more than being an individual man, he is a member of the human community. The human community will live on after him, long after he is dead. That is the immortality in which he participates.

But, as far as gratitude, he is simply grateful to have drawn breath and to have been alive. He does not ask for more, or say that he would not be satisifed if he were not immortal. His mortality makes life all the more precious to him.

One thing that Epicurus loved to do, incidentally, is to contemplate infinity. He probably felt enlarged, expanded – through contemplating the cosmos, for example. This is a feeling that I’m sure someone like Richard Dawkins can experience, when he contemplate immensity of the cosmos. Instead of feeling lonely and isolated–and small–one can feel enlarged, as if one is soaring into the cosmos with the wings of one’s mind.

As Epicurus put it, “Remember that you are mortal and that, although having but a limited span of life, you have entered into discussions about nature for all time, and see “all things that are and will be and were before.”
 
Atheism is a disbelief, it doesn’t need to be proved, I already mentioned why, you keep repeating the same point that atheists should prove that there is no god.
Atheists must be **infallible **then!
Following your logic, you as a Catholic you need to physically disprove every deity and every character of fiction ever existed in our societies.
You need to disprove every possible brand of disbelief!
Desires have nothing to do in seeking the truth, every skeptic knows that, there is plenty of other reasons to disbelieve outside desires, even some non believers desire to believe by they can’t because they know it isn’t true.
How can you be absolutely sure you disbelieve because you don’t want it be true?
People can be theists, believers and even religious, and do whatever they want, then ask God’s forgiveness, you don’t have to convince yourself that there is no god to do what you want, that’s silly.
Non-believers can imagine or do anything they want. That is the supreme absurdity!
 
It isn’t a recipe of happiness, it happens that those who are drunk forget and escape the reality of their problems which make them happy during that phase.
You seem to ignore the set of people who are still not happy whilst drunk. Drinking ‘to forget ones problems’ does not actually make anyone happier, whether sober or drunk.
 
In many cases religious morality is an insult to ethics, I very much doubt that a god who made this magnificent universe, billions of galaxies, would be be so weak minded to demand from a single specie on a small planet, to no masturbate, or to go to confession, or to pray many times a day, wear a veil, fast for holidays, do not use contraception, and a lot of other complex rules which are probably made by religious authorities and prophets in previous times who claim so well what gods want them to do, I notice it always fits their desires.
I notice that you choose to have **absolute freedom **to satisfy your desires - provided you can get away with it!
 
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Atheism is a disbelief, it doesn’t need to be proved, I already mentioned why, you keep repeating the same point that atheists should prove that there is no god.**

If you said categorically that there is no moon … that the moon is just something imagined by millions of people since the dawn of human history, would you be all that surprised to hear someone ask you to prove that the moon doesn’t exist?
 
Those who reject spiritual reality condemn themselves to mental isolation. They believe no one ever knows precisely what they are thinking or feeling.
I specified interior isolation. No one can get into our minds.
I think your most greatest adversary in these thoughts is Epicurus, who put a great emphasis on friends and on living in a community of like-minded believers. He drew great comfort from his relationships with others.
It still does not alter your innermost solitude.
The worst punishment that can be inflicted on anyone is solitary confinement. Mental solitude is far worse because there is a constant barrier between oneself and others which lasts to the moment of death. It is a foretaste of hell…
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                             There is truth in that -- I've read an infant deprived of  affection or of human contact will die, even if it is nourished  properly-- but the great truth of that assertion is as regards our  fellow human beings. This does not thereby prove that faith in God is  absolutely necessary for one not to feel alone.

Even if we don’t feel alone we are mentally alone. It strikes us more when we are in a crowd of people.
In stark contrast to this self-inflicted punishment Christians and members of other religions are never alone. They are not always aware of God’s presence but in times of joy or sorrow they can express their gratitude or their anguish. They can pray for help and consolation - and even ask for a miracle. They don’t live in an indifferent universe but are sustained by divine love.
Hope was an Epicurean virtue, I believe. Hope and optimism are possible even to non-believers. For example, an Epicurean would focus on the fact that, though the universe does not “love” you, per se, neither does the universe hate you. There is no one “out there” who hates you, or who is trying to hurt you (nor did the Epicurean believe in hell or the devil).

For you there is no one at all - which makes your interior isolation worse when you are in trouble and on your own.
Another element of his optimism is that, in his mind, to live is to experience pleasure, but there is nothing terrible in not living. He no more feared the time after his death than he would have looked back in pain or anguish at the time before he was born. This was the ultimate optimistic assertion – life is pleasant, but there is nothing unpleasant in not living.
To assert that living and not living are comparable is not optimism but nihilism.
Based on this optimistic point of view, Epicureans were not known as having committed suicide out of despair. They celebrated life. As Epicurus put it, “Death does not concern us, because as long as we exist, death is not here. And when it does come, we no longer exist.” You will never know death, according to him; all you will ever know is life.
“Eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow you die” is a shallow philosophy.
We have other sources of help and consolation. We believe in the Communion of Saints which binds us to all who have tried to do God’s Will and love others as Jesus loved - and loves - us. The Saints do not know eveything but when they answer our prayers they must know we have prayed to them. We are physically separated from our loved ones who have died but we are spiritually united to them forever.
Epicurus once wrote, “sweet is the memory of a dead friend.” Life is a celebration with those one loves, who live on in one’s memory, even when they are gone. They will always be a part of us–indeed, “always be with us,” as Christ said–for as long as we live. And they too lived in communities, drawing support from like-minded friends. They helped each other and looked out for each others’ basic needs. They treated each other as brothers and sisters.

Christians are not unique in that respect but we have the great consolation of being eventually reunited to our loved ones. Many nonbelievers are inconsolable and see no point in living without their beloved…
Non-believers are not always entirely responsible for their pessimism. In a secular society there are many obstacles to belief in God yet non-believers suffer loneliness unnecessarily. If they admit even the possibility that materialism is false they need no longer feel isolated.
If they are wanting more, yearning for more, and cannot be happy unless God exists, then maybe they should believe in something more. Not everyone has this need, I believe. Or, similarly, there are some who don’t know whether God exists or not, but don’t consider this question to be of practical importance for their happiness in life and love of neighbor.

Then they have a closed mind and a limited outlook. If they thought deeply enough they would realise the answer transforms life one way or the other.
You may think those individuals are short-sighted or missing something in their lives, and you may be right – or mistaken.
To have no desire to live after we die is unnatural because it implies we desire nothing more than a few brief years in this world.
one is justified in giving up every vestige of hope…
To give up hope is to succumb to despair. And what is the profit of succumbing to despair? It’s simply that this hope takes different forms. The non-believer has his own consolations – that he is part of the human family, which will live on after him, for example. A social reformer can take comfort in the fact that, more than being an individual man, he is a member of the human community. The human community will live on after him, long after he is dead. That is the immortality in which he participates.

For the non-believer it is a community destined to disappear into the void which will destroy all the achievements and masterpieces of art, music, literature and philosophy.
But, as far as gratitude, he is simply grateful to have drawn breath and to have been alive. He does not ask for more, or say that he would not be satisifed if he were not immortal. His mortality makes life all the more precious to him.
A more reasonable view is that of Albert Camus:

“Dans l’univers du révolté, la mort exalte l’injustice. Elle est le suprême abus.”
One thing that Epicurus loved to do, incidentally, is to contemplate infinity. He probably felt enlarged, expanded – through contemplating the cosmos, for example. This is a feeling that I’m sure someone like Richard Dawkins can experience, when he contemplate immensity of the cosmos. Instead of feeling lonely and isolated–and small–one can feel enlarged, as if one is soaring into the cosmos with the wings of one’s mind.
As Epicurus put it, “Remember that you are mortal and that, although having but a limited span of life, you have entered into discussions about nature for all time, and see “all things that are and will be and were before.”
The very fact that we are aware of the universe (which is not aware of us) is evidence that we are not we are not totally insignificant specks who appear and disappear for no reason or purpose whatsoever into in the darkness of eternity. To feel enlarged is further evidence that we are rational beings with a capacity for truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love which are eternal and indestructible.
 
I specified interior isolation. No one can get into our minds.

It still does not alter your innermost solitude.
I agree in that loneliness is seemingly a universal human experience (for believers and non-believers alike). Many things are resorted to in order to help alleviate it – friends being one. Belief in God is better, in the eyes of many believers, because God can enter into your mind (“in whom we live and breathe and have our being”). God is also perfectly dependable, in a way your fellow human being is not.

But this has only to do with the utility of believing in a Supreme Being who loves you. It does not thereby establish its truth.

The non-believer simply isn’t convinced that what we want to be true is actually true. Simple as that.

I would be willing to grant that, maybe, a non-believing humanist who lives joyfully and whose life seems to be replete with meaning has a subconscious intuition that there is a higher power, that–unbeknownest to him–sustains him.

But this animus against non-believers – the idea that they have somehow wronged God in their unbelief, is perplexing to me. They simply don’t see it, and aren’t convinced. I will add to that that many who do see it, and are convinced, are not necessarily better people for it.

Indeed, there are some people–the fanatics–who probably could use a good dose of comparative unbelief, in their lives.

And then there are the people for whom religion is a source of great anxiety (the fear of hell); the people for whom their religion causes them to relate to this life nihilistically (this life doesn’t matter; only the hereafter matters); the people for whom their belief in God reinforces prejudice (prejudice on the basis of gender; race; sexual orientation; religious affiliation.).

Epicurus, who believed in nothing, had no prejudices. His was the first school of antiquity that admitted women and slaves not as an exception, but as a rule. Other schools (such as the Platonists) who believed in a higher power, also believed that this higher power didn’t want women to study (a familiar religious belief in some circles, even today). Hindus, who believed in a higher power, also believed in a caste system and in an untouchable caste, whose perpetuation was upheld by divine decree. Epicurus would have broken bread with an untouchable; would have invited him to study the good life in his Garden. Except maybe as regards Buddhism, I’ve never encountered a philosophy that appeared to promise so little (Buddhism promises “emptiness”) and yet delivered so much.
 
“Dans l’univers du révolté, la mort exalte l’injustice. Elle est le suprême abus.”
J’ai oublié de vous remercier pour cette citation en français (une de mes langues préférées). Mais il y a d’autres façons de penser la mort et la non-croyance que celle que nous offre Camus dans cette phrase. J’ai toujours eu l’impression que l’existentialisme est trop marqué–trop conditionné, disons–par une culture chrétienne, selon laquelle on souffre de l’absence de Dieu et d’un au-déla. Voici les sentiments d’un autre grand penseur (et pas le moindre) sur ce sujet de la mort:

“I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves. Neither can I or would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death…one life is enough for me.”–Albert Einstein

Une vie éternelle – quel fardeau 🙂 La grande actrice américaine Katharine Heburn partagait cet avis, en disant: “I don’t fear death. It must be like a long sleep.” Et il y a des millions d’êtres humains qui ont partagé cet avis (dont Épicure).
 
I specified interior isolation. No one can get into our minds.
It is not a question of utility but of realism. The universal belief in God is powerful evidence that it is a deep-rooted intuition which corresponds to fact. The vast majority of people reject the theory that we exist for no reason or purpose whatsoever. Theism is far more inspiring, meaningful and fertile than the reduction of life to a freak of nature.
The non-believer simply isn’t convinced that what we want to be true is actually true. Simple as that.
That argument is a two-edged sword!
I would be willing to grant that, maybe, a non-believing humanist who lives joyfully and whose life seems to be replete with meaning has a subconscious intuition that there is a higher power, that–unbeknownest to him–sustains him.
Precisely!
But this animus against non-believers – the idea that they have somehow wronged God in their unbelief, is perplexing to me. They simply don’t see it, and aren’t convinced. I will add to that that many who do see it, and are convinced, are not necessarily better people for it.
I entirely agree. 🙂
Indeed, there are some people–the fanatics–who probably could use a good dose of comparative unbelief, in their lives.
👍 It would be a lesser evil.
And then there are the people for whom religion is a source of great anxiety (the fear of hell); the people for whom their religion causes them to relate to this life nihilistically (this life doesn’t matter; only the hereafter matters); the people for whom their belief in God reinforces prejudice (prejudice on the basis of gender; race; sexual orientation; religious affiliation.).
Corruptio optima pessima!
Epicurus, who believed in nothing, had no prejudices. His was the first school of antiquity that admitted women and slaves not as an exception, but as a rule.
Then he must have believed in the principle of equality - without a rational basis!
Other schools (such as the Platonists) who believed in a higher power, also believed that this higher power didn’t want women to study (a familiar religious belief in some circles, even today). Hindus, who believed in a higher power, also believed in a caste system and in an untouchable caste, whose perpetuation was upheld by divine decree. Epicurus would have broken bread with an untouchable; would have invited him to study the good life in his Garden. Except maybe as regards Buddhism, I’ve never encountered a philosophy that appeared to promise so little (Buddhism promises “emptiness”) and yet delivered so much.
There is much to commend in Buddhism with its emphasis on spiritual development but ultimately is a form of nihilism because it implies a renunciation of this life to attain nirvana whereas Christianity recognises the beauty and immense value of physical existence.
 
J’ai oublié de vous remercier pour cette citation en français (une de mes langues préférées).
Je vous remercie d’avoir écrit en français (une langue que j’enseignais quand j’étais plus jeune mais n’utilise jamais maintenant).
Mais il y a d’autres façons de penser la mort et la non-croyance que celle que nous offre Camus dans cette phrase. J’ai toujours eu l’impression que l’existentialisme est trop marqué–trop conditionné, disons–par une culture chrétienne, selon laquelle on souffre de l’absence de Dieu et d’un au-déla. Voici les sentiments d’un autre grand penseur (et pas le moindre) sur ce sujet de la mort:
“I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the kind we experience in ourselves. Neither can I or would I want to conceive of an individual that survives his physical death…one life is enough for me.”–Albert Einstein
(For the benefit of non-French speakers I translate.)
  1. Il n’y a pas d’autre alternative logique - There is other logical alternative.
  2. C’est une question de tout ou rien - It is a question of all or nothing.
  3. Sans Dieu la vie est absurde - Without God life is absurd.
Une vie éternelle – quel fardeau - Eternal life, what a burden!
La grande actrice américaine Katharine Heburn partagait cet avis, en disant: “I don’t fear death. It must be like a long sleep.” Et il y a des millions d’êtres humains qui ont partagé cet avis (dont Épicure).
Ils manquent d’imagination - They lack imagination:
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause… - Hamlet
Mais c’est une opinion negative. Il y a aussi le paradis pour tous ceux inspirés par la realité de la verité, la bonté, la liberté, la justice, la beauté et l’amour.
  • But that is a negative opinion. There is also paradise for those who are inspired by the reality of truth, goodness, freedom, justice, beauty and love. 🙂
 
You’ve gotten me thinking hard about these issues, harder than I’ve thought about them in quite a while. For that, I am thankful 🙂
It is not a question of utility but of realism. The universal belief in God is powerful evidence that it is a deep-rooted intuition which corresponds to fact. The vast majority of people reject the theory that we exist for no reason or purpose whatsoever.
The universality of religious belief is indeed evidence of a certain religiosity in human nature. Language, art, religion–and culture, generally–are all universal human phenomenon. When you say “powerful evidence,” I wonder if you are choosing your words very carefully; for, indeed, this apparent evidence is not sufficient proof, in and of itself. Ultimately, to consider this proof–as opposed to, at best, compelling circumstantial evidence–would be to succumb to the fallacy of the “consensus gentium” (the consensus theory of truth), whereby, "if the vast of human being have believed it (say, 99% of all humanity that ever lived), it is probably true. Yet mythology is a universal human creation, as well. That does not thereby prove that the content of the world’s mythologies point to something true. In fact, many of these myths more evidently stem from a need to explain things in the here and now. Genesis explains a lot – how the world was created; what man’s place in it is; why there is suffering in the world; why people get married and have children. However, there are other creation myths, in other cultures–for example, Navaho and Aztec mythology–and they too are early attempts of human beings to explain how the natural world works, and why things happen as they do.

In addition, superstitition was a seemingly universal human phenomenon – the idea, for example, that natural disasters were caused by things that humans were doing, and that by changing our behavior vis-a-vis the gods, we could avert these natural disasters (offering an animal or a human sacrifice for example, to propitiate the gods). For the Greeks to have developed the idea that the things that happen in nature–earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis–happen independently of them, was a great anomaly in early human societies; at least, it was an anomaly to believe it as calmly and as objectively as many of the Greeks did.

There is another thing that occurred to me today, as I was pondering the points that you raised – namely, that to posit the existence of a God (whether from an argument from design, or from an argument that creation needs to have a creator) does not thereby establish: A. God love you; and B. as part of God’s for you, He wants you to live eternally and to enjoy paradise.

For example – as apparent counterevidence that “God love us” (in the manner in which we conceive of love, which is concern for our happiness and well-being) one can point to the classic problem of suffering. Christianity has an explanation for why there is suffering in the world–Adam and Eve, Satan–but these are not, in and of them themselves, part and parcel of general theistic arguments for the existence of God. For the atheist or skeptic who says, “how can God love us if we are permitted to suffer; if children are permitted to suffer,” the ultimate answer–in addition to Adam and Eve and the serpent in the Garden–is that, "God *does * love you. Even if it seems that the world that God created is indifferent–this ocean, for example, which seemingly doesn’t care whether I dip my toes in it, or drown myself; this universe in which sickness, old age, and death not only exist, but in which the first and the last (sickness and death) can strike anyone, at any time, including the very young and defenseless–even then, God still loves you immensely. This is belief in spite of apparent evidence to the contrary – indeed, faith. An argument for the existence of God–for a Creator–will not, in and of itself, establish that this God loves you and cares immensely for your well-being.

Nor will it prove–and this was startling to me–that a loving God will necessarily guarantee your immortality. Perhaps that loving God says, “I gave you this life, as a gift; I gave you the opportunity to partake in my nature; now it is someone else’s turn.” And for those who say, “but God couldn’t love you, if you didn’t make you immortal,” I would say, “we invoke God’s sovereign will all the time, and say ‘who are we to question God’s ways?’ We say, for example, 'how can God love us in a world where, at one time, 50% of children did not survive childhood? How can God love us in a world with so much suffering? Similarly, we ask, 'how can God love us, if some of us are condemned to an eternity in hell?” (and attempts are made to invoke mankind’s free will, but the question, ‘is it fair for the exercise of one’s free will in this life to determine one’s eternal fate’ is ultimately a dead-end question; God’s ways are greater than man’s, and God’s justice is greater than we can comprehend."

Just so, if there is a God (assuming it were proved) and if God loved us (assuming that were proved), we have no proof that this loving God has given us immortality as an expression of His love for us. By most accounts, the Hebrews believed that God loved the righteous, but that this didn’t mean there was an eternity spent in Heaven with this God. Qoheleth praised God, but seemingly didn’t believe that God’s justice demanded his personal immortality. When Job complained of God’s ways, God did not tell Job, “don’t worry – as bad as this suffering was, you will be with me eternally in paradise.” This was a Christian form of consolation, and not–arguably–an historically Hebrew one.

My point there is that these arguments for the existence of God–can a clock exist without a clockmaker?–even if they were accepted as proof, do not thereby demonstrate A. God loves you and B. as an expression of that love, you will live forever. For that, you need to step beyond purely theistic arguments–does God exist or not exist–and start to invoke Revelation; specifically, Christian Revelation through the Bible and the incarnation of Jesus.
Theism is far more inspiring, meaningful and fertile than the reduction of life to a freak of nature.
This is argument for the greater usefulness–even, possibly, the necessity–for human beings to subscribe to some theistic form of belief (including, for example, the mere belief that human life is intrinsically valuable). It argues for more desirable effects through theism, than through atheism. Of course, this does not thereby prove that theism is true; merely that humans, arguably, “need” or “ought” to believe it, if they want to live inspired, meaningful, or fertile lives.

Even there, obviously, one could adduce counterexamples – of atheists who lived enviably inspired, meaningful, or fertile lives (Einstein comes to mind, as he was a great scientist and great humanitarian with a non-theistic conception of God and no conception of personal immortality). To say that Einstein was shallow would be an ad hominem fallacy, ultimately (and a rather difficult one to prove, in my opinion 😉 ).

To say that Einstein did believe, even if he wasn’t consciously aware that he did–or that Christ carried him and walked with him, regardless, and that the Holy Spirit breathed its life into him, and that Divine Providence showered blessings into his life–is a compelling possibility, but not ultimately proof that this was the case. If Einstein believed without being consciously aware that he believed, then the most one could establish is that–perhaps–human beings need to believe in “something,” and that it is almost impossible for them not to believe in “something.” It doesn’t thereby establish that this “something” is real, independently of his own mind.

On a personal level, I agree with those theists who say, "I have met very few real atheists in my life. Instead, I have met believers who are not consciously aware that they are believers, and that do not piece out the contradictions between what they do believe in (e.g., the sanctity of life) and what they don’t believe in (namely, a Supreme Being who loves us).

I have also marveled at how much is possible in our lives; how many wonderful things there are, which would seem to point to blessings. And, certainly, I have marveled at the order and the mystery that something exists, at all.

But I acknowledge that these are intuitions, at best; but not proofs. I cannot explain, for example, why this God would have created a world in which half of children–if not more–did not survive childhood, until relatively recently (in the west, at least). Nor can I explain why a loving God would have created a world in which women–again, until relatively recently–died with such frequency during childbirth, such that it was a literal crapshoot, every time a woman got pregnant (thankfully, today, it is more of an unmitigated blessing). That, to me, points to an arguably *malevolent * order, an order that is put to malevolent purposes.

And, again, just because I’ve rarely–in my experience–encountered a bona fide atheist, does not mean that our seemingly inevitable theistic beliefs, as a species, point to anything that is real independently of our own minds or constitution.
 
Corruptio optima pessima!
Thank you for that Latin phrase, which I admittedly had not encountered before 🙂 I see that the translation is, “corruption of the best is what is worst.” That is a much more judicious way of looking at it than that phrase of Lucretius (the Roman Epicurean, of course 🙂 ), who wrote, “tantum religio potuit suadere malorum” (“so potent was religion in persuading to evil deeds”).
he must have believed in the principle of equality - without a rational basis!
First, it’s fair to point out that, if the existence of a God who demands equality has not been established rationallly (and for many men of reason, it has not), then a Christian’s or other believer’s own belief in equality is not rationally based, either (even if they think it is).

But it is interesting, with Epicurus. It is not so much that he believed in equality as that he didn’t believe in inequality. That, to me, is the great irony of the virtuous Buddhist or the virtuous Epicurean – their virtue is a product not of adding to their beliefs, but of taking away from them.

For example, Hitler’s belief in the racial superiority of the Nordic race, and the inferiority of all other peoples, wasn’t sufficiently grounded in what he did not believe. Rather, it was grounded in what he did believe – namely, a pseudo-scientific theory of biologically-based inequalities between the races, qua races.

Similarly, a conservative Hindu’s belief in the existence of an Untouchable caste was not sufficiently determined by what he did *not *believe, but rather by what he did believe (namely, that the caste system was divinely instituted and woven into the fabric of existence).

Even Aristotle’s belief in “natural inequality” (and in slavery) was grounded in what he *did *believe; namely, a fallacious understanding of what we would call natural law or the natural order of things. He read the social order into the natural world, just as a Social Darwinist (misreading Darwin) would do.

The mind of Epicurus–as the mind of the Buddha–was seemingly very “empty” 😉 Indeed, whereas Buddha–or later Buddhists, in any case–made much of Emptiness, Epicurus made much of the Void (meaning, the empty space within which atoms moved). What he seemingly didn’t believe is that social inequalities were either mandated by the gods, or mandated by nature. This is not to say that his school wasn’t hierarchical–apparently it was–but he showed himself remarkably unprejudiced in terms of how he related to what a Buddhist would call a “fellow sentient being.” 🙂 And, ironically, this humanity that he showed towards others ironically was not so much a product of what he *did * believe about them, but of what he didn’t believe about them.

A young child–as Christ himself pointed out–or, for that matter, a good-natured Golden Retriever–not to insult Epicurus with the comparison!–shows a similar benevolence, as the product of a relatively empty mind. Epicurus only had a few core beliefs, rather common sense ones – life is preferable to death (even though he said, “death is nothing to us”, as a way of comforting his followers, he still believed that life was preferable to death), not because the universe wants it but because it’s what we want; and, pleasure was preferable to pain (again, not what the universe wants, but what we want). Added to this, he had one important (and rather Buddhist) insight: that you cannot be happy, inside, if you are causing pain to others. Much more pleasurable it is to relate to your neighbor as your friend. Hatred, jealousy, anger are all self-destructive emotions, that disturb your own tranquility and cloud your own happiness. Contrary to Sartre, “hell is not other people”; rather,
“of all the means to insure happiness throughout the whole life, by far the most important is the acquisition of friends.” That, to me, is the Epicurean paradox, as it is–in a way–the Buddhist paradox. With so little (indeed, with a mustard seed of belief), so much is achieved. To believe the ancients, Epicureans were Quakers; just so damned pleasant 😉

This does remind me of a line in the Tao Te Ching: "In the pursuit of learning, every day something is acquired. In the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped.

It sounds like wacky Yoda logic–“you must unlearn, what you have learned”–but, again, even Christ spoke of very small things, like of the kingdom of heaven being like a mustard seed. And he did say that young children are like the kingdom of heaven. The idea was that, with very few, unencumbered insights (like with the Buddha’s Four Noble Truths) you achieved rather momentous results.
is much to commend in Buddhism with its emphasis on spiritual development but ultimately is a form of nihilism because it implies a renunciation of this life to attain nirvana whereas Christianity recognises the beauty and immense value of physical existence.
I’m not an expert on Buddhism, but, of course, a Buddhist would probably disagree with you regarding “nihilistic” label.

You’re probably aware that Nietzsche viewed Christianity and Buddhism as nihilistic religions; Buddhism, more or less for the reason you gave; Christianity, because he believed–or observed–that any positing of a “next world” couldn’t help but devalue this world. You obviously would argue the opposite (that it is precisely the next world that gives value to this world), and I can certainly appreciate that logic 🙂

I will say, though, that I was absolutely shocked when I happened upon the following quote from Cardinal Newman, essentially expressing the belief, “what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world, but loses his soul?” What was shocking to me, though, was that he was willing to crucify any semblance of material or physical well-being in this world, in order to ensure eternal spiritual well-being, in the next. He wrote:

“The Catholic Church holds it better for the Sun and Moon to drop from Heaven, for the earth to fail, and for all the many millions on it to die from starvation in extremest agony … than that one soul, I will not say, should be lost, but should commit one single venial sin, should tell one wilful untruth, or should steal one poor farthing without excuse.”

This, to me, was a case of* corruptio optimi pessima* 😉 Nor could I imagine a Buddhist saying something as nihilistic as those words come across, even though that was doubtless *not * Newman’s intention. Nor an Epicurean, for that matter 😉
 
Portofino

This, to me, was a case of corruptio optimi pessima Nor could I imagine a Buddhist saying something as nihilistic as those words come across, even though that was doubtless not Newman’s intention. Nor an Epicurean, for that matter

This would appear to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

There is no blacker version of human destiny than that offered by the agnostic/atheist.

from “A Free Man’s Worship”

“That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and beliefs are but the outcome of accidental collections of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave. That all the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius are destined to extinction…that the whole temple of man’s achievement must inevitably be buried. All these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand…Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built.”

But this is not a free man’s worship. It is rather, ironically, the worship of a man enslaved by his own despair, enslaved to the point of glorifying it as something noble and worshipful. To Christians that is just what it claims to be, nihilism beyond belief. :rolleyes:
 
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