The isolation of sceptics

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Portofino

This, to me, was a case of corruptio optimi pessima Nor could I imagine a Buddhist saying something as nihilistic as those words come across, even though that was doubtless not Newman’s intention. Nor an Epicurean, for that matter

This would appear to be a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

There is no blacker version of human destiny than that offered by the agnostic/atheist.

from “A Free Man’s Worship”

“That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and beliefs are but the outcome of accidental collections of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave. That all the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius are destined to extinction…that the whole temple of man’s achievement must inevitably be buried. All these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand…Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built.”

But this is not a free man’s worship. It is rather, ironically, the worship of a man enslaved by his own despair, enslaved to the point of glorifying it as something noble and worshipful. To Christians that is just what it claims to be, nihilism beyond belief. :rolleyes:
Russell was an expert logician but an amateur metaphysician! 🙂
 
Indeed, Russell could be very sloppy in his thinking at times. Possibly he acquired the habit (vanity) common to many intellectuals of being so impressed with their own intelligence that they begin to take it for granted and throw away all caution. :rolleyes:
 
Indeed, Russell could be very sloppy in his thinking at times. Possibly he acquired the habit (vanity) common to many intellectuals of being so impressed with their own intelligence that they begin to take it for granted and throw away all caution.
There is one point in his favour. In his History of Western Philosophy he rejected Nietzsche’s philosophy remarking that the world needs Christian love!
 
Je vous remercie d’avoir écrit en français (une langue que j’enseignais quand j’étais plus jeune mais n’utilise jamais maintenant).
On dirait que vous n’avez rien oublié ! 🙂 [would seem that you’ve forgotten nothing!]
 
On dirait que vous n’avez rien oublié ! 🙂 [would seem that you’ve forgotten nothing!]
Je vous assure que j’ai oublié inévitablement des centaines de mots parce que je n’ai eu aucun contact avec le monde francophone depuis au moins trente ans quand j’habitais en Algérie. Souvent je passais le weekend chez les moines de Thibhirine. En 1996 le Groupe Islamique Armé a assassiné sept hommes saints que je devais connaître. Leur crime? Ils aidaient aux pauvres dans son dispensaire mais ils étaient Chrétiens…

I apologise for not having responded to your posts but will do so soon. 🙂
 
The universality of religious belief is indeed evidence of a certain religiosity in human nature. Language, art, religion–and culture, generally–are all universal human phenomenon… Yet mythology is a universal human creation, as well. That does not thereby prove that the content of the world’s mythologies point to something true. In fact, many of these myths more evidently stem from a need to explain things in the here and now. Genesis explains a lot – how the world was created; what man’s place in it is; why there is suffering in the world; why people get married and have children. However, there are other creation myths, in other cultures–for example, Navaho and Aztec mythology–and they too are early attempts of human beings to explain how the natural world works, and why things happen as they do.
Both religion and mythology are evidence that human beings intuitively recognise the need for an explanation of existence in terms of purpose rather than physical events alone. “How?” needs to be supplemented by “Why?”
In addition, superstitition was a seemingly universal human phenomenon – the idea, for example, that natural disasters were caused by things that humans were doing, and that by changing our behavior vis-a-vis the gods, we could avert these natural disasters (offering an animal or a human sacrifice for example, to propitiate the gods). For the Greeks to have developed the idea that the things that happen in nature–earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis–happen independently of them, was a great anomaly in early human societies; at least, it was an anomaly to believe it as calmly and as objectively as many of the Greeks did.
Stanley Jaki has explained how the development of modern science was based on the belief that the universe is intelligible because it has a rational origin.
There is another thing that occurred to me today, as I was pondering the points that you raised – namely, that to posit the existence of a God (whether from an argument from design, or from an argument that creation needs to have a creator) does not thereby establish: A. God love you; and B. as part of God’s for you, He wants you to live eternally and to enjoy paradise.
The immense value of life is reason to believe the Creator is benevolent. The Greek concept of Nemesis and the Indian doctrine of Karma are based on belief in cosmic justice. The gross injustice in this life necessitates an afterlife if it is to be rectified. Otherwise belief in justice is unjustified! Would you go to that extreme?
For example – as apparent counterevidence that “God love us” (in the manner in which we conceive of love, which is concern for our happiness and well-being) one can point to the classic problem of suffering… For the atheist or skeptic who says, “how can God love us if we are permitted to suffer; if children are permitted to suffer,” the ultimate answer–in addition to Adam and Eve and the serpent in the Garden–is that, "God *does * love you. Even if it seems that the world that God created is indifferent–this ocean, for example, which seemingly doesn’t care whether I dip my toes in it, or drown myself; this universe in which sickness, old age, and death not only exist, but in which the first and the last (sickness and death) can strike anyone, at any time, including the very young and defenseless–even then, God still loves you immensely. This is belief in spite of apparent evidence to the contrary – indeed, faith. An argument for the existence of God–for a Creator–will not, in and of itself, establish that this God loves you and cares immensely for your well-being.
I have pointed out that the immense value of life is sufficient reason to believe the Creator is benevolent. To establish divine love philosophy has to be supplemented by Revelation .
Nor will it prove–and this was startling to me–that a loving God will necessarily guarantee your immortality… We say, for example, 'how can God love us in a world where, at one time, 50% of children did not survive childhood?
Longevity or the brevity of life is not a rational criterion for the value or significance of life. Keats died at 25 but the beauty of his poetry will last forever. It was ignorance that was mainly responsible for the high incidence of infant mortality as well as adult deaths. Yet how could ignorance be prevented in a world where we learn to solve problems and be free to choose what to believe and how to live?
How can God love us in a world with so much suffering? Similarly, we ask, 'how can God love us, if some of us are condemned to an eternity in hell?"…
The problem doesn’t arise if our eternal destiny is determined by ourselves! If we choose to be totally independent we are necessarily isolated from others.
Just so, if there is a God (assuming it were proved) and if God loved us (assuming that were proved), we have no proof that this loving God has given us immortality as an expression of His love for us… This was a Christian form of consolation, and not–arguably–an historically Hebrew one.
Hebrew beliefs are not regarded as the final interpretation of divine Providence.
My point there is that these arguments for the existence of God–can a clock exist without a clockmaker?–even if they were accepted as proof, do not thereby demonstrate A. God loves you and B. as an expression of that love, you will live forever. For that, you need to step beyond purely theistic arguments–does God exist or not exist–and start to invoke Revelation; specifically, Christian Revelation through the Bible and the incarnation of Jesus.
I agree that Revelation is needed to supplement the concept of Design but when taken in conjunction they are a far more cogent explanation than the view that there is no reason, value or purpose whatsoever in the existence of anyone or anything in the entire universe…
This is argument for the greater usefulness–even, possibly, the necessity–for human beings to subscribe to some theistic form of belief (including, for example, the mere belief that human life is intrinsically valuable)… It argues for more desirable effects through theism, than through atheism. Of course, this does not thereby prove that theism is true; merely that humans, arguably, “need” or “ought” to believe it, if they want to live inspired, meaningful, or fertile lives.
The fertility of a scientific or philosophical explanation is an important criterion in determining whether it corresponds to reality.
Even there, obviously, one could adduce counterexamples – of atheists who lived enviably inspired, meaningful, or fertile lives (Einstein comes to mind, as he was a great scientist and great humanitarian with a non-theistic conception of God and no conception of personal immortality). To say that Einstein was shallow would be an ad hominem fallacy, ultimately (and a rather difficult one to prove, in my opinion 😉 ).
Einstein was not shallow but neither was he infallible!
To say that Einstein did believe, even if he wasn’t consciously aware that he did–or that Christ carried him and walked with him, regardless, and that the Holy Spirit breathed its life into him, and that Divine Providence showered blessings into his life–is a compelling possibility, but not ultimately proof that this was the case. If Einstein believed without being consciously aware that he believed, then the most one could establish is that–perhaps–human beings need to believe in “something,” and that it is almost impossible for them not to believe in “something.” It doesn’t thereby establish that this “something” is real, independently of his own mind.
The mere fact that he was not a materialist is significant.
On a personal level, I agree with those theists who say, "I have met very few real atheists in my life. Instead, I have met believers who are not consciously aware that they are believers, and that do not piece out the contradictions between what they do believe in (e.g., the sanctity of life) and what they don’t believe in (namely, a Supreme Being who loves us).
I have also marveled at how much is possible in our lives; how many wonderful things there are, which would seem to point to blessings. And, certainly, I have marveled at the order and the mystery that something exists, at all.
But I acknowledge that these are intuitions, at best; but not proofs. I cannot explain, for example, why this God would have created a world in which half of children–if not more–did not survive childhood, until relatively recently (in the west, at least). Nor can I explain why a loving God would have created a world in which women–again, until relatively recently–died with such frequency during childbirth, such that it was a literal crapshoot, every time a woman got pregnant (thankfully, today, it is more of an unmitigated blessing). That, to me, points to an arguably *malevolent * order, an order that is put to malevolent purposes.
The imperfection of natural processes is not a valid reason for rejecting divine benevolence. In spite of his scepticism David Hume acknowledged the inevitability of natural evil in a world subject to natural laws rather than divine fiats.
And, again, just because I’ve rarely–in my experience–encountered a bona fide atheist, does not mean that our seemingly inevitable theistic beliefs, as a species, point to anything that is real independently of our own minds or constitution.
Then you need to explain how our minds originated - bearing in mind that matter is a hopelessly inadequate hypothesis. 😉

NB I apologise for editing your post but with my reply it exceeded the limit!

I’ll respond to your other post asap…
 
Hi Tony,

Thanks for your responses 🙂
Both religion and mythology are evidence that human beings intuitively recognise the need for an explanation of existence in terms of purpose rather than physical events alone. “How?” needs to be supplemented by “Why?”
It’s occurred to me that early religion and mythology actually sought to answer both questions, at once — how things came to be (an attempt at a physical explanation) and why they came to be (a teleological explanation).

We know now that these myths were mistaken as physical explanations of how the world was created, for example. But people of that time believed that these stories had explanatory power for the how, and in literal terms. We know now that they were mistaken about those stories. For example, the world is not resting on the shell of a giant tortoise, as some Native Americans believed (unless that tortoise represents God 😉 ).

So we know that mythology and religion were rife with errors, distortions, and misunderstanding. But they were an *attempt *, at least, to answer fundamental questions, in terms of the need to understand both the how and the why of existence.

My own question would be, to what extent is their account of the “why” distorted, as well? We know that the “why” of Greek, Egyptian, or Navaho mythology is distorted, in all but the most general terms (there is a higher power; life has meaning). As for everything else, they pretty much got it wrong, by Christian standards.

But for the non-believer, the question is, “what distortions exist in any *other *religious tradition, that seeks to answer the “how” of our existence?”). It takes faith in revelation, obviously, to believe that the “how” of one’s own religious tradition cannot itself be a distortion, an imperfect approximation of reality. Even Paul spoke of how, in this world, it is as if we are “looking through a glass, darkly.”
immense value of life is reason to believe the Creator is benevolent.
Not all of us see this. Even believers sometimes aren’t able to see it, in their moments of pain. When I look at the world I see what Carl Jung wrote (I can’t put it any more succinctly than he, so I’ll just quote it): “The world into which we are born is brutal and cruel, and at the same time of divine beauty.” In a moment of despair, a character in Shakespeare’s King Lear says, “as flies to wanton boys are we to the gods; they kill us for their sport.” As faithless as this sentence seems, it was precisely the thinking of Job. It’s not always easy to see the benevolence of God at work in the world.
Greek concept of Nemesis and the Indian doctrine of Karma are based on belief in cosmic justice. The gross injustice in this life necessitates an afterlife if it is to be rectified. Otherwise belief in justice is unjustified!
I sometimes wonder, in seriousness, whether the human need for justice is not tainted by the human desire for revenge. We’ve abolished cruel and unusual punishment in our western societies–it is not permissible for even a few moments–whereas our ancestors believed that, whatever it was that human justice could do to a perpetrator, divine justice would do a lot “worse” (or better). There are human beings–I among them–who don’t see the justice in eternal hellfire, nor desire it for even the worst of humanity.

To me, karma would be a more plausible form of divine justice (although, granted, it requires more than one life to play itself out). I don’t like the idea–even for others–of punishment that is not instructive, or that has no possibility to be instructive. Even if I believed in hell, I would believe that repentance was possible – even in hell.
Einstein was not shallow but neither was he infallible!
That he wasn’t 😉 Einstein is an interesting case because there was a kind of stubbornness in his nature – when confronted by an atheistic materialistic, he would sound a more religious note; when confronted by a member of one of the monotheistic religions, he would sound a more skeptical one.
imperfection of natural processes is not a valid reason for rejecting divine benevolence.
That part is puzzling to me. I know you’re not a Deist, but that same imperfection of natural processes could lead me to believe, “we must live our lives to the best of our wits and not count on anything saving us. We must rely on ourselves.” God seems more distant, in a world that is kind of running according to natural laws that do not, themselves, love us.

As a Christian, I take it you believe both in the imperfection of natural processes and, from time to time, in divine intervention and Providence. That too is a puzzling combination to me (as I understand it, most Christians take the more traditional approach of “blaming” suffering on Satan and on human sinfulness, as opposed to more scientifically chalking it up to the inherent hazards and contingencies of the natural world). If someone loses a loved one to an accident, God forbid, it generally is more comforting for them to say “it was God’s will”, rather than to say, “it was just what it appeared to be – an accident.” But to grant the imperfection of natural processes is to grant the occurrence of “accidents,” no matter how painful and seemingly irrevocable the fallout of those accidents are.
you need to explain how our minds originated - bearing in mind that matter is a hopelessly inadequate hypothesis. 😉
I don’t know how minds originated 🙂 Nor do I think our scientists do, the people who are supposed to know 🙂 Common sense would tell us (as put by a Jesuit professor of a Catholic friend): “the universe can’t give what it doesn’t have.” Of course, the common sense explanation of things–the most immediately logical explanation–has often been wrong (though granted, this cuts both ways 🙂 ). By that I mean, just because I don’t always see evidence that someone out there loves us, unfailingly, does not mean that someone out there does not love us unfailingly. I certainly hope that to be the case.
 
Both religion and mythology are evidence that human beings intuitively recognise the need for an explanation of existence in terms of purpose rather than physical events alone. “How?” needs to be supplemented by “Why?”
I believe there are only three possibilities:
  1. Answers to both why? questions and how? questions are irreducible.
  2. Answers to why? questions are reducible to how? questions.
  3. Answers to how? questions are reducible to why? questions.
In other words the ultimate explanation of reality has a physical cause or a purposeful cause - or both!

The most adequate and economical answer is that one Being designed and created the universe - which explains the immense value of life and also the origin of purposeful activity.
But for the non-believer, the question is, “what distortions exist in any *other *religious tradition, that seeks to answer the “how” of our existence?”). It takes faith in revelation, obviously, to believe that the “how” of one’s own religious tradition cannot itself be a distortion, an imperfect approximation of reality. Even Paul spoke of how, in this world, it is as if we are “looking through a glass, darkly.”
Our explanations are necessarily imperfect approximations but that doesn’t mean they are entirely false! 🙂
The immense value of life is reason to believe the Creator is benevolent.
Not all of us see this. Even believers sometimes aren’t able to see it, in their moments of pain. When I look at the world I see what Carl Jung wrote (I can’t put it any more succinctly than he, so I’ll just quote it): “The world into which we are born is brutal and cruel, and at the same time of divine beauty.” In a moment of despair, a character in Shakespeare’s King Lear says, “as flies to wanton boys are we to the gods; they kill us for their sport.” As faithless as this sentence seems, it was precisely the thinking of Job. It’s not always easy to see the benevolence of God at work in the world.

The world is necessarily brutal and cruel because it is subject to the blind laws of nature which cannot take into account the well-being of individuals but the vast majority are not deformed, diseased or killed in an accident. I think it was Leibniz who remarked that houses are far more common than hospitals.
Greek concept of Nemesis and the Indian doctrine of Karma are based on belief in cosmic justice. The gross injustice in this life necessitates an afterlife if it is to be rectified. Otherwise belief in justice is unjustified!
I sometimes wonder, in seriousness, whether the human need for justice is not tainted by the human desire for revenge. We’ve abolished cruel and unusual punishment in our western societies–it is not permissible for even a few moments–whereas our ancestors believed that, whatever it was that human justice could do to a perpetrator, divine justice would do a lot “worse” (or better). There are human beings–I among them–who don’t see the justice in eternal hellfire, nor desire it for even the worst of humanity.

Your objection to hell implies that you believe in the objective reality of justice which cannot exist in a purposeless universe.
“eternal hellfire” is a Jewish figure of speech for a spiritual state of isolation which is self-inflicted by those who reject God.
To me, karma would be a more plausible form of divine justice (although, granted, it requires more than one life to play itself out). I don’t like the idea–even for others–of punishment that is not instructive, or that has no possibility to be instructive. Even if I believed in hell, I would believe that repentance was possible – even in hell.
That is why the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory is a more logical solution to the stark dilemma of Heaven or Hell. But genuine freedom must allow for the possibility of eternal revolt against of God.
Einstein was not shallow but neither was he infallible!
That he wasn’t 😉 Einstein is an interesting case because there was a kind of stubbornness in his nature – when confronted by an atheistic materialistic, he would sound a more religious note; when confronted by a member of one of the monotheistic religions, he would sound a more skeptical one.

A great scientist cannot be expected to be a great philosopher into the bargain! Like other disciplines science has its occupational hazard
:
imperfection of natural processes is not a valid reason for rejecting divine benevolence.
That part is puzzling to me. I know you’re not a Deist, but that same imperfection of natural processes could lead me to believe, “we must live our lives to the best of our wits and not count on anything saving us. We must rely on ourselves.” God seems more distant, in a world that is kind of running according to natural laws that do not, themselves, love us.

We wouldn’t be free to choose what to believe and how to live if it were otherwise.
As a Christian, I take it you believe both in the imperfection of natural processes and, from time to time, in divine intervention and Providence. That too is a puzzling combination to me (as I understand it, most Christians take the more traditional approach of “blaming” suffering on Satan and on human sinfulness, as opposed to more scientifically chalking it up to the inherent hazards and contingencies of the natural world). If someone loses a loved one to an accident, God forbid, it generally is more comforting for them to say “it was God’s will”, rather than to say, “it was just what it appeared to be – an accident.” But to grant the imperfection of natural processes is to grant the occurrence of “accidents,” no matter how painful and seemingly irrevocable the fallout of those accidents are.
There is no conflict in believing that everything is ultimately God’s Will and the occurrence of events contrary to God’s Will. If there were no limit to divine intervention it would defeat the purpose of creating a world subject to the laws of nature.
you need to explain how our minds originated - bearing in mind that matter is a hopelessly inadequate hypothesis.
I don’t know how minds originated 🙂 Nor do I think our scientists do, the people who are supposed to know 🙂 Common sense would tell us (as put by a Jesuit professor of a Catholic friend): “the universe can’t give what it doesn’t have.” Of course, the common sense explanation of things–the most immediately logical explanation–has often been wrong (though granted, this cuts both ways 🙂 ). By that I mean, just because I don’t always see evidence that someone out there loves us, unfailingly, does not mean that someone out there does not love us unfailingly. I certainly hope that to be the case.

If not the origin of love also requires explanation… together with good and evil, free will, justice, beauty and purpose. Quite a tall order! 😉
 
  1. Answers to both why? questions and how? questions are irreducible.
  2. Answers to why? questions are reducible to how? questions.
  3. Answers to how? questions are reducible to why? questions.
Clarification:
  1. Answers to "Why? questions and “How?” questions are irreducible, i.e. reasons and physical causes are independent of each other.
  2. Answers to "Why? questions are reducible to “How?” questions, reasons are reducible to physical causes.
  3. Answers to "How? questions are reducible to “Why?” questions, physical causes are reducible to reasons.
The simplest and most adequate explanation is that physical causes and purposeful causes originate in one Supreme Cause, i.e one Being who designed and created the universe - which explains the immense value of life and also the origin of purposeful activity.
 
Clarification:
  1. Answers to "Why? questions and “How?” questions are irreducible, i.e. reasons and physical causes are independent of each other.
  2. Answers to "Why? questions are reducible to “How?” questions, reasons are reducible to physical causes.
  3. Answers to "How? questions are reducible to “Why?” questions, physical causes are reducible to reasons.
The simplest and most adequate explanation is that physical causes and purposeful causes originate in one Supreme Cause, i.e one Being who designed and created the universe - which explains the immense value of life and also the origin of purposeful activity.
Taken by itself this post is incomprehensible! I should have begun with the sentence:
I believe there are only three possibilities:
Fortunately the conclusion can stand by itself regardless of the context. 🙂
 
Our explanations are necessarily imperfect approximations but that doesn’t mean they are entirely false! 🙂
Agreed! 🙂 But this statement you’ve just made is, to my knowledge, conceding more than an orthodox Roman Catholic could concede, qua orthodox Roman Catholic. The Church proclaims itself to have the fullness of truth – for example, zero distortion in the Nicene Creed.
world is necessarily brutal and cruel because it is subject to the blind laws of nature which cannot take into account the well-being of individuals but the vast majority are not deformed, diseased or killed in an accident. I think it was Leibniz who remarked that houses are far more common than hospitals.
I like this as well, but Epicurus could have said the same! 🙂 I don’t think the majority of Catholics would be comfortable with that above statement, even though I am comfortable with it. I don’t think they would be comfortable with the statement “blind laws of nature cannot take into account the well-being of individuals” and would rather say, "things go wrong in the world for two main reasons: 1. the consequences of the fall and of original sin and 2. human free will. Because they believe in justice and God’s love, they wouldn’t want to ascribe human suffering–any human suffering–to simple, blind accident.

I have yet to meet a Catholic who said, “chance and contingency are a fundamental reality in the universe, even where human suffering is concerned” – so this is a first, for me 😉 Not to say I don’t like it or agree.
objection to hell implies that you believe in the objective reality of justice which cannot exist in a purposeless universe.
I was actually speaking of what I personally would desire, even for others. That is, I wasn’t making any metaphysical claims as to the objective reality of justice, independently of the human mind. I can love a brother and sister–or my own child–and not want them to suffer, independently of saying that objective justice or even objective morality exists. Similarly, if someone is thrown into prison for life for stealing a loaf of bread or for criticizing a political leader, I can say that this lacked “fairness” and that the punishment didn’t fit the crime. There is even an element of common sense in this notion of justice – the old “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” was fairness as defined by an arithmetical sense of proportion and ratio. When we seek to evolve beyond “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth”, we are going beyond arithmetic and tempering it with compassion. But compassion is a human emotion, not a metaphysical claim about the nature of reality. That I grant. What I don’t grant is that, if compassion is not grounded in an objective metaphysical realm, that it therefore is without any value whatsoever, including in a human context. Relative to human beings, compassion has value (for example, if I’m the Samaritan lying on the side of the road, bleeding, someone’s compassion for me certainly has value, and I don’t say, “away with your compassion; it has no objective metaphysical basis” :p).
eternal hellfire" is a Jewish figure of speech for a spiritual state of isolation which is self-inflicted by those who reject God.
I agree 🙂 Again, though, I’ve observed that many Catholics are not comfortable with agreeing with that statement, without qualification, as regards hell-fire being a spiritual state and not a physical burning (maybe they underestimate the agony of spiritual suffering). The great theologian Aquinas believed that, just as human beings were body and soul, so too would the suffering of hell be both spiritual and corporeal. To my knowledge, this historically has been the prevailing Catholic view of the matter.
is why the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory is a more logical solution to the stark dilemma of Heaven or Hell. But genuine freedom must allow for the possibility of eternal revolt against of God.
I’ve read recently that there is no repentance in purgatory, per se. Once you have died, the time for repentance is past. Purgatory is only for souls who are already saved, and who need to do the penance of their “temporal punishment” for their sins. That is, if you did not die in communion with God, you cannot become in communion with God after the fact.

I’m just pointing out here what I see as a contradiction or an inadequacy of the “free will” explanation. The freedom to choose God–if one had hitherto rejected God–ceases to exist once one has taken one’s last breath. There is no repentance in hell, not for an eternity, which implies that free will no longer has efficacy in hell. It is “too late.”
great scientist cannot be expected to be a great philosopher into the bargain!
That is true! 🙂 What also amazes me is that a great philosopher in logic or epistemology–a Bertrand Russell, for example–is not necessarily a great philosopher in ethics or metaphysics. I believe we agree on that point, regarding a comment you made above regarding Russell’s deficiencies as a metaphysician. In my mind, Russell even had a poor understanding of Nietzsche.
not the origin of love also requires explanation… together with good and evil, free will, justice, beauty and purpose. Quite a tall order! 😉
I think the big difference of perspective is that not everyone accepts, “if free will is an illusion; if beauty is an evolutionary byproduct; if justice and purpose are human constructs,” then they not only meaningless, but without any value whatsoever. They would call this a false dilemma (either “love, beauty, goodness, and justice” have an objective metaphysical reality, or they are of no value in human life whatsoever, in any context whatsoever, nor can human life be of any value, in any context whatsoever").

I would say, for example:

*"free will is experiential, and thus has value for human beings; pragmatically speaking, it is a fact of life, just as are the colors that I perceive in the world, even though colors are “reducible” to electromagnetic wavelengths.

*beauty and aesthetic contemplation is a source of great pleasure, and is justified for that reason alone, just as I can enjoy a good camembert and not worry about the fact that the sensation of “taste” is not an objective metaphysical reality, but rather an experiential reality (Einstein observed that, “science cannot tell us the taste of the soup” – nor amazingly, can metaphysics!)

*justice is a means of human flourishing, and thus has pragmatic value; its value is based on the simple fact that the majority of human beings would rather be alive than dead, and would rather experience pleasure than pain; they don’t have to justify this metaphysically – it’s just what they want (and, we observe, animals seem to want it, as well). There is some logic or symmetry in justice–e.g., killing someone for mispronouncing a word or stumbling just doesn’t compute–and there is also human fellow-feeling and compassion. Though, strictly speaking, compassion is a matter of tempering justice with mercy.

I ultimately take the agnostic view of the matter; namely, I do not *know *if beauty, goodness, and justice are objective metaphysical realities, independently of human experience. For the purpose of my life on earth, I do not need know (nor do I consider it ultimately knowable). Granted, this is a pragmatic position.

Indeed, you have a metaphysical orientation; I acknowledge that metaphysical orientation (I “get” metaphysics, I appreciate it) but invoke pragmatism. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter to me if the beautiful sunset I see is objectively beautiful, independently of my make-up and perceptual apparatus; I appreciate the sunset. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter to me if my preference for life over death and for pleasure over misery has no metaphysical necessity; I prefer life over death, pleasure over misery (and, what’s more, my body prefers it). Ultimately, it doesn’t matter to me if the universe loves my child; I love my child.
 
“There is not enough love and goodness in the world to permit giving any of it away to imaginary beings.” Friedrich Nietzsche

There is lot of beautiful things in life, from universe, to love, to nature, to knowledge, to music, to happiness, to fun, I prefer to love these things and natural beings over things that may not exist.
What makes something beautiful?

What makes something good?
 
What makes something beautiful?
The experience of beauty is a subjective experience of aesthetic pleasure. I don’t think beauty can be grounded with absolute, metaphysical objectivity (i.e., existing independently of human beings). If I find a sunset beautiful, I can’t say for sure whether a dog or a cat would find it beautiful; nor, for that matter, can I know for sure whether an extraterrestrial being of superhuman intelligence would find it beautiful; nor, finally, can I know for sure whether every other human being must, of necessity, find it beautiful.

Nonetheless, I appreciate efforts that have been made to explain why humans *tend * to find certain things beautiful, and not others. Most humans derive aesthetic appreciation through symmetry, for example. A proportional face is generally perceived as more beautiful than a lop-sided face.

Similarly, Emerson says somewhere that, “there are few things on earth that, if suffused with intense light, would not thereby become beautiful.” Light tends to be perceived as beautiful, as does vibrant color.

Then again, humans are wonderfully complex. The lopsided face of the puppy for example, with the droopy ears, can be perceived as “cute” or “adorable.” Indeed, Ayn Rand says somewhere (in The Fountainhead) of one character’s face that “he had a big head and a face so ugly it become almost fascinating.” Some of us find pugs to be ugly dogs; others find them to be “cute” or adorable, like beautiful little monsters 🙂

Few parents would ever find their own offspring ugly (“a face only a mother could love”). I tend to side with the mother, but that’s just me 😉
What makes something good?
Without metaphysics, something is “good” if it promotes the end that one wants to achieve. Eating dirt and swallowing nails is bad – not objectively bad, but bad if your goal is to stay alive and to avoid excruciating pain. Most of us have this goal; therefore, eating nourishing food is good, and eating noxious food is bad.

Killing one’s neighbor is viewed as bad by a society–indeed, is illegal–because it does not promote the goal of that democratic society, which is to protect the life, freedom, and happiness of its citizens (killing one’s neighbor is thus the social equivalent of eating dirt and swallowing nails). This goal is not an objective metaphysical necessity; but, nonetheless, it is what most humans want, even if only for themselves and their loved ones. If for no other reason, they recognize that, unless they forfeit killing others for their own advantage, others will not forfeit killing them for their own advantage. It’s a social contract, a kind of peace treaty between complete strangers.

On a more personal level, causing pain to others is bad because it will not give you pleasure, happiness, or peace of mind, even if you think that it will. Let’s take the most pragmatic reason – if I hurt someone you love (assuming it were not illegal), I run the risk of being hurt by you. I cannot have peace of mind, if I have to worry that the family or friends of someone I have hurt will take revenge (if hurting others is illegal, of course, then it’s also the police that I have to worry about).

This is the most pragmatic argument, though it is not without importance. Indeed, how many people refrain from killing only because it is illegal. If that’s their only reason for refraining from doing it – because it will land them life in prison–then so be it. Where desire is not a sufficient motive, fear and avoidance of pain picks up the slack (similar to the Christian who is good not only out of love of God, but of fear of hell).

But now consider it from a more subtle, psychological level. This is the Buddhist insight that, “the way to be happy is to make others so.” Speaking for myself, hurting others would not give me pleasure, because I could too easily empathize with their suffering, especially if that suffering were intense. It’s just the way it is; it is an intellectual, perceptual dimension to my emotional life, that enables me to be “sensitive” to the pain of others, on some level. I don’t want to punch somebody in the face, because it hurts, and there is a part of me that would feel the pain I am causing. Granted, this is being “sensitive.” Similarly, if someone takes a hit to that particularly vulnerable part of the male anatomy during a sporting event, a good number male spectators will instinctively reach (or want to reach) for that part of their anatomy, protectively. They can feel that suffering as if it were their own (in this sense, to have empathy is more “natural” than to be a sociopath). I’ve also heard anecdotes that the first day in surgery for surgeons in training can often be very slow going; using the required force to saw off a limb, for example, is not something that comes naturally. Very few would not wince in psychological pain or discomfort (empathy). They just can’t do it without *feeling *it, like that proverbial nails on the chalkboard effect.

Those who don’t feel the pain of others are insensitive–and, indeed, need laws and prisons to, pragmatically keep them in line!–and I suspect (though cannot easily prove, perhaps) that those who are insensitive to others’ pain are also less sensitive to their *own *pleasure – in short, less happy. An Epicurean (not in the lower case “e” sense, but in the capital “e” sense) would say that even if it were possible to be happy while causing others pain, they would be even happier if they loved their neighbor (the Buddhist or the Epicurean promise). I can vouch for the fact that it feels good to do a “good deed” – to help the delivery man open the door, for example, if I see him struggling. Granted, part of this is social reinforcement and social reward (“good deeds” tend to be praised and socially rewarded). Nonetheless, this still exists independently of objective metaphysical validation.

There are also intellectual limitations to sensitivity; if I do not see the children in the sweat shop, for example, I can enjoy my designer clothing unimpeded (“out of sight, out of mind”). If someone helps to show that suffering, to make me vividly aware of it, then it is more likely I can respond in compassion and that my enjoyment of that product will be impeded by the painful contemplation of how it was produced (this is the same logic behind methods used in pro-life initiatives, to vividly show that a fetus is alive).

The Dalai Lama, I believe, has also looked at the relationship between happiness and altruism – that is, if you are *already *happy, you will tend to have no desire to cause pain to others. We all know this, in the sense that the boss who is in a “good mood” is more approachable for that day off, or that vacation, than the boss who is in a lousy mood. If he’s just given birth to a daughter, and is overjoyed, it’s probably a good time to ask him for that generous request. If he’s frustrated and angry that his daughter has just crashed his BMW (though she herself is unharmed, say), it’s probably a bad time to ask him for the special favor, all other things being equal. If he’s happy, he’s inclined to be more alruistic, more generous; if he’s miserable, he’s more inclined to throw the book at you.

Another example - few Catholics could be happy if they knew that their mother, or sister, or daughter, were in hell. This is theoretically possible, that they would be in hell, but it would be a source of great pain for their Catholic relatives to contemplate this.

In connection with this, Aristotle said, “when there is true love and friendship, laws become unnecessary.” The same goes for moral duty. If I love my mother, sister, wife, or daughter, I do not need “moral duty” to dictate that I want them to be happy and do not want them to experience pain. If, like the Buddhist, I extrapolate this intellectually, and realize that all of us are brethren (part of the same speck of dust, hurtling through the cosmos; all of us having once occupied the same “locus” of infinitesimally concentrated energy, in the moment before the Big Bang), then I don’t need moral duty to know that I love my neighbor and do not want to cause my neighbor pain. My neighbor is my brethren, because I can see myself in him. Where love is, “ought” becomes unnecessary, and flows naturally.

So I grant that “good” becomes non-objective, without metaphysics, but that doesn’t mean it becomes completely arbitrary or subjective, either. Pragmatically, it is grounded in the goal I am seeking to achieve, and the objective necessity of what it takes to achieve that goal. Emotionally, it is grounded in my nature – in my emotional constitution, my make-up.

As my wife put it: “a baby does not need metaphysics to smile at its mother.”
 
Our explanations are necessarily imperfect approximations but that doesn’t mean they are entirely false!
There is zero distortion within the limitations of human language and intelligence. It cannot be heretical to believe our descriptions of the spiritual realm are approximate because St Thomas Aquinas (canonised by the Catholic Church) had pointed out that our intellectual knowledge of God is through the via causalitatis, the via negationis and the via eminentiae.
The world is necessarily brutal and cruel because it is subject to the blind laws of nature which cannot take into account the well-being of individuals but the vast majority are not deformed, diseased or killed in an accident.
I like this as well, but Epicurus could have said the same! I don’t think the majority of Catholics would be comfortable with that above statement, even though I am comfortable with it. I don’t think they would be comfortable with the statement “blind laws of nature cannot take into account the well-being of individuals” and would rather say, "things go wrong in the world for two main reasons: 1. the consequences of the fall and of original sin and 2. human free will. Because they believe in justice and God’s love, they wouldn’t want to ascribe human suffering–any human suffering–to simple, blind accident.
I have yet to meet a Catholic who said, “chance and contingency are a fundamental reality in the universe, even where human suffering is concerned” – so this is a first, for me Not to say I don’t like it or agree.

The Catechism explicitly states:
God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or** the evils in nature **which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil.
CCC 385
Your objection to hell implies that you believe in the objective reality of justice which cannot exist in a purposeless universe.
I was actually speaking of what I personally would desire, even for others. That is, I wasn’t making any metaphysical claims as to the objective reality of justice, independently of the human mind. I can love a brother and sister–or my own child–and not want them to suffer, independently of saying that objective justice or even objective morality exists. Similarly, if someone is thrown into prison for life for stealing a loaf of bread or for criticizing a political leader, I can say that this lacked “fairness” and that the punishment didn’t fit the crime. There is even an element of common sense in this notion of justice – the old “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” was fairness as defined by an arithmetical sense of proportion and ratio. When we seek to evolve beyond “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth”, we are going beyond arithmetic and tempering it with compassion. But compassion is a human emotion, not a metaphysical claim about the nature of reality. That I grant. What I don’t grant is that, if compassion is not grounded in an objective metaphysical realm, that it therefore is without any value whatsoever, including in a human context. Relative to human beings, compassion has value (for example, if I’m the Samaritan lying on the side of the road, bleeding, someone’s compassion for me certainly has value, and I don’t say, “away with your compassion; it has no objective metaphysical basis” ).

If belief in justice is nothing more than emotion it certainly has no rational basis.
Similarly compassion is not a virtue if it is simply an emotion over which we have no control. Kant remarked that “Ought implies can.” If a person lacked compassion it would not be a vice.
“Eternal hellfire” is a Jewish figure of speech for a spiritual state of isolation which is self-inflicted by those who reject God.
I agree Again, though, I’ve observed that many Catholics are not comfortable with agreeing with that statement, without qualification, as regards hell-fire being a spiritual state and not a physical burning (maybe they underestimate the agony of spiritual suffering). The great theologian Aquinas believed that, just as human beings were body and soul, so too would the suffering of hell be both spiritual and corporeal. To my knowledge, this historically has been the prevailing Catholic view of the matter.

Since love is spiritual rather than physical it is reasonable to believe suffering after death is at least primarily spiritual.
I’ve read recently that there is no repentance in purgatory, per se. Once you have died, the time for repentance is past. Purgatory is only for souls who are already saved, and who need to do the penance of their “temporal punishment” for their sins. That is, if you did not die in communion with God, you cannot become in communion with God after the fact.
I’m just pointing out here what I see as a contradiction or an inadequacy of the “free will” explanation. The freedom to choose God–if one had hitherto rejected God–ceases to exist once one has taken one’s last breath. There is no repentance in hell, not for an eternity, which implies that free will no longer has efficacy in hell. It is “too late.”
If we no longer had free will after we die we would be incapable of spiritual love - which is a sine qua non of life in heaven. Support for this view comes from an unlikely quarter. Sartre pointed out that “we are necessarily free”. Freedom is our distinguishing characteristic as a person. Without it we would lose our identity. The Christian belief that God created us in His image implies that we never cease to be persons - even in hell. Nor is God bound by the rules He has given us. His infinite love could extend even to persons in hell if they ever repented of their decision to reject Him. To think otherwise is to presume to have infallible knowledge of God!
What also amazes me is that a great philosopher in logic or epistemology–a Bertrand Russell, for example–is not necessarily a great philosopher in ethics or metaphysics. I believe we agree on that point, regarding a comment you made above regarding Russell’s deficiencies as a metaphysician. In my mind, Russell even had a poor understanding of Nietzsche.
One of his virtues was that he made philosophy interesting and readable but he cannot be regarded as an authority outside his own field.
I think the big difference of perspective is that not everyone accepts, “if free will is an illusion; if beauty is an evolutionary byproduct; if justice and purpose are human constructs,” then they not only meaningless, but without any value whatsoever. They would call this a false dilemma (either “love, beauty, goodness, and justice” have an objective metaphysical reality, or they are of no value in human life whatsoever, in any context whatsoever, nor can human life be of any value, in any context whatsoever").
I would say, for example:
*"free will is experiential, and thus has value for human beings; pragmatically speaking, it is a fact of life, just as are the colors that I perceive in the world, even though colors are “reducible” to electromagnetic wavelengths.
*beauty and aesthetic contemplation is a source of great pleasure, and is justified for that reason alone, just as I can enjoy a good camembert and not worry about the fact that the sensation of “taste” is not an objective metaphysical reality, but rather an experiential reality (Einstein observed that, “science cannot tell us the taste of the soup” – nor amazingly, can metaphysics!)
*justice is a means of human flourishing, and thus has pragmatic value; its value is based on the simple fact that the majority of human beings would rather be alive than dead, and would rather experience pleasure than pain; they don’t have to justify this metaphysically – it’s just what they want (and, we observe, animals seem to want it, as well). There is some logic or symmetry in justice–e.g., killing someone for mispronouncing a word or stumbling just doesn’t compute–and there is also human fellow-feeling and compassion. Though, strictly speaking, compassion is a matter of tempering justice with mercy.
I ultimately take the agnostic view of the matter; namely, I do not know if beauty, goodness, and justice are objective metaphysical realities, independently of human experience. For the purpose of my life on earth, I do not need know (nor do I consider it ultimately knowable). Granted, this is a pragmatic position
.

Pragmatism is certainly not an adequate criterion of truth. It is useful (as one might expect!) but utility alone doesn’t take us very far. It imposes an artificial horizon on our view of reality. It amounts to a disguised form of physicalism - which is surely incompatible with genuine agnosticism.
Indeed, you have a metaphysical orientation; I acknowledge that metaphysical orientation (I “get” metaphysics, I appreciate it) but invoke pragmatism. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter to me if the beautiful sunset I see is objectively beautiful, independently of my make-up and perceptual apparatus; I appreciate the sunset. Ultimately, it doesn’t matter to me if my preference for life over death and for pleasure over misery has no metaphysical necessity; I prefer life over death, pleasure over misery (and, what’s more, my body prefers it). Ultimately, it doesn’t matter to me if the universe loves my child; I love my child.
If you really love your child you will be concerned about what happens to you and your child when you are both dead!
 
This is great argument, Tony 🙂
If belief in justice is nothing more than emotion it certainly has no rational basis.
I concede that justice that had a rational basis would be preferable; justice that were as logically necessary and as self-evident as 2+2=4. I don’t see that this has been demonstrated, however, and the seeming inability for human beings to agree upon what justice *is *would seem to support this. The vast majority of individuals who believe in objective justice also believe in divine revelation – nor, incidentally, are they able to agree with each other as what justice is. A Muslim and a Christian, for example, do not necessarily have compatible notions of objective justice.

It is a sad state of affairs, that–if a morality is as logically necessary as 2+2=4–it cannot achieve the same universal recognition as that simple arithmetical equation.

Liberal Christians, for example–such former Anglican archbishop Desmond Tutu–find the legalization of gay marriage to be an imperative of justice. Conservative Christians do not, and do not dare equate “freedom to sin” (as they see it, and as they believe God sees it) with justice.

And even if we could agree upon what rational justice is, we still have difficulties. For one thing, moral law is not a physical law in the way that gravity is – that is, it is not inviolable. Since we have free will, a person can recognize what is good, while choosing what is evil. This is especially true if he does not see any profit–however foolishly–in “being good.”

Religion is a good motivator because it posits a reward for doing good–heaven–and a punishment for doing bad – hell. But this too relativizes morality, if the person concerned is too foolish to want heaven and to want to avoid hell. There is a similar problem with the person who doesn’t care whether he receives life in prison–or the electric chair–because he doesn’t care about his own self-interest, nor even about his own life.

Just so, the “is-ought” distinction cannot be bridged for someone who is not “afraid” of God’s judgment and–however misguided this may seem–does not care about being jeopardized with eternal damnation.

This is the very same short-coming of a more pragmatic basis for moral behavior – if I don’t care about my own life and well-being–even in being a law-abiding citizen–then I have no motivation to behave in a legal manner.

Indeed, I just don’t see any fail-safe foundation for morality. What do you say to the man who says, “yes, justice is ‘rational’. So what? What if I want to be irrational? Would you like to know what I think of your rationality?” Then, all you can do is try to convince him with pragmatic arguments that appeal to his self-interest – which is precisely what one sought to avoid!

Above, for example, I mentioned that eating dirt and swallowing nails is objectively an evil to be avoided, if one wants to survive and avoid excruciating pain. Simple enough; I see little danger of any but a negligently small percentage of adult persons who would willingly incorporate these things into their diet. Unfortunately, if one doesn’t have this seemingly common-sensical and “rational” goal of staying alive and avoiding excruciating pain, then I have little to say to the person who considers it a lifestyle choice (except maybe “don’t do it!” or, if I am a different sort of person, bon appetit 😉 ). Then again, we could try to have such persons committed, not for being immoral but for being “unwell.”

Just so, I unfortunately have little to say to the man who, hearing that God forbids him to hurt himself–or that “reason” and the moral law of the universe forbids it–says to me, “who cares? I want to do what I want to do, unless someone cares to stop me.”
is our distinguishing characteristic as a person. Without it we would lose our identity. The Christian belief that God created us in His image implies that we never cease to be persons - even in hell. Nor is God bound by the rules He has given us. His infinite love could extend even to persons in hell if they ever repented of their decision to reject Him. To think otherwise is to presume to have infallible knowledge of God!
I agree; I just haven’t had any Catholics agree with me, until now 😉 What you are saying is, “for all we know, repentance is possible in hell and hell is not necessarily of eternal duration; and God can pardon those in hell, and allow them to purgatory, if He so chooses.” This also implies, to me – more controversially, no doubt – that eternal salvation in heaven may not be eternally guaranteed, either. If I still have free will in heaven, I am still capable of incurring damnation, however colossally stupid such a choice would be. Satan certainly did.
you really love your child you will be concerned about what happens to you and your child when you are both dead!
Most of us can agree that anyone who loves his child would do all he could to ensure that child’s well-being and safety. As for well-being and safety in the afterlife, that is–unfortunately–a much more subjective affair.

For example, I know a Seventh Day Adventist who is ensuring the well-being and safety of his family – by observing Saturday Sabbath and abstaining from pork and alcohol. He practically thinks Catholics must not love their children, to put them in such eternal jeopardy! A Muslim acts differently, to ensure the eternal well-being of his child; as does a Catholic, obviously. Similarly, if one is agnostic about the existence of an afterlife, then one puts all of one’s love, affection, and concern into helping one’s child live as long, as happy, and as fulfilling a life as possible. One does the best one can, based on one’s understanding of reality.

If only it were as easy as 2+2= 4, or water being composed of hydrogen and oxygen. Right now, I see Catholics, SDAs, and Muslims who are each convinced that they have perceived “objective reality,” even though their worldviews are ultimately not compatible.

This leads me to believe that, if morality is rationally-based, it is a much more elusive and complex form of rationality than simple arithmetic, or even particle physics!

As it is, we have a humanity that can agree upon the truth of Einstein’s general theory of relativity–incredibly complex equations–but a humanity that cannot agree upon whether or not the marriage of two persons of the same gender is a violation of objective moral law. The true believer says, “they know they’re wrong, deep down–or ought to know–but they persist in their wrongdoing.” And that’s precisely what the other side is saying, about them 🙂
 
I concede that justice that had a rational basis would be preferable; justice that were as logically necessary and as self-evident as 2+2=4. I don’t see that this has been demonstrated, however, and the seeming inability for human beings to agree upon what justice *is *would seem to support this.
Only philosophers are unduly concerned about definitions! From early childhood we are aware of unfairness - which suggests it is an intuitive perception of evil. To deny it exists gives a carte blanche for criminals. Our outrage on hearing of a child being tortured is certainly emotional but it goes deeper than that. It strikes us as needless and unjustified inhumanity which rejects the intrinsic value of life. It leads inexorably to the logical extreme of nihilism in which nothing matters and everything is pointless. There can be no half-measures with regard to morality: either it is a set of truths about personal development or no more than sentimental claptrap…
The vast majority of individuals who believe in objective justice also believe in divine revelation – nor, incidentally, are they able to agree with each other as what justice is
Religions agree on fundamental principles -as Aldous Huxley has explained in The Perennial Philosophy.
It is a sad state of affairs, that–if a morality is as logically necessary as 2+2=4–it cannot achieve the same universal recognition as that simple arithmetical equation.
Liberal Christians, for example–such former Anglican archbishop Desmond Tutu–find the legalization of gay marriage to be an imperative of justice
Disagreement is inevitable but it doesn’t justify the conclusion that morality is fictitious.
And even if we could agree upon what rational justice is, we still have difficulties. For one thing, moral law is not a physical law in the way that gravity is – that is, it is not inviolable…
The whole point of morality is that it is practical - as Kant insisted. This is not a weakness but a strength! Reasoning itself implies moral integrity. If we don’t respect and value logic we are wasting our time and energy.
Religion is a good motivator because it posits a reward for doing good–heaven–and a punishment for doing bad – hell. But this too relativizes morality, if the person concerned is too foolish to want heaven and to want to avoid hell…
The relativity of morality is inevitable given that we are free to choose what to believe and how to live. Precepts would be redundant if they were always or never observed!
Just so, the “is-ought” distinction cannot be bridged for someone who is not “afraid” of God’s judgment and–however misguided this may seem–does not care about being jeopardized with eternal damnation.
I believe hell has its compensations: total independence. 🙂 No one would opt for an existence which offers nothing.
This is the very same short-coming of a more pragmatic basis for moral behavior – if I don’t care about my own life and well-being–even in being a law-abiding citizen–then I have no motivation to behave in a legal manner.
No one can reason with a lunatic! Morality is only for those who accept the value of life. They are entitled to reject their own life but not everyone else’s.
Indeed, I just don’t see any fail-safe foundation for morality. What do you say to the man who says, “yes, justice is ‘rational’… So what? What if I want to be irrational? Would you like to know what I think of your rationality?” Then, all you can do is try to convince him with pragmatic arguments that appeal to his self-interest – which is precisely what one sought to avoid!
Self-interest is not incompatible with morality. We are told to love our neighbour **as **ourselves - neither more nor less. If it pays to be considerate it is foolish not to be.
…Unfortunately, if one doesn’t have this seemingly common-sensical and “rational” goal of staying alive and avoiding excruciating pain, then I have little to say to the person who considers it a lifestyle choice (except maybe “don’t do it!” or, if I am a different sort of person, bon appetit 😉 ). Then again, we could try to have such persons committed, not for being immoral but for being “unwell.”
Just so, I unfortunately have little to say to the man who, hearing that God forbids him to hurt himself–or that “reason” and the moral law of the universe forbids it–says to me, “who cares? I want to do what I want to do, unless someone cares to stop me.”
I anticipated you when I remarked: “No one can reason with a lunatic!” We are also told not to cast pearls before swine. 🙂
Freedom is our distinguishing characteristic as a person. Without it we would lose our identity. The Christian belief that God created us in His image implies that we never cease to be persons - even in hell. Nor is God bound by the rules He has given us…
I agree; I just haven’t had any Catholics agree with me, until now 😉 What you are saying is, “for all we know, repentance is possible in hell and hell is not necessarily of eternal duration; and God can pardon those in hell, and allow them to purgatory, if He so chooses.” This also implies, to me – more controversially, no doubt – that eternal salvation in heaven may not be eternally guaranteed, either. If I still have free will in heaven, I am still capable of incurring damnation, however colossally stupid such a choice would be. Satan certainly did.

I believe all evil is a form of insanity because it is not in our ultimate interest to be immoral. In the long run every virtue brings its reward and every vice its punishment. But it is culpable insanity when we believe what we are doing is wrong.

I don’t believe Satan was in heaven. The Catechism simply states:
391 …The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.
It seems incredible that anyone in the very presence of Love would choose any other form of existence. There is no reason why spiritual beings cannot be free to determine their destiny like us - at an epistemic distance from God.
If you really love your child you will be concerned about what happens to you and your child when you are both dead!
Most of us can agree that anyone who loves his child would do all he could to ensure that child’s well-being and safety. As for well-being and safety in the afterlife, that is–unfortunately–a much more subjective affair.

For example, I know a Seventh Day Adventist who is ensuring the well-being and safety of his family – by observing Saturday Sabbath and abstaining from pork and alcohol. He practically thinks Catholics must not love their children, to put them in such eternal jeopardy! A Muslim acts differently, to ensure the eternal well-being of his child; as does a Catholic, obviously. Similarly, if one is agnostic about the existence of an afterlife, then one puts all of one’s love, affection, and concern into helping one’s child live as long, as happy, and as fulfilling a life as possible. One does the best one can, based on one’s understanding of reality.

If only it were as easy as 2+2= 4, or water being composed of hydrogen and oxygen. Right now, I see Catholics, SDAs, and Muslims who are each convinced that they have perceived “objective reality,” even though their worldviews are ultimately not compatible.

This leads me to believe that, if morality is rationally-based, it is a much more elusive and complex form of rationality than simple arithmetic, or even particle physics!

As it is, we have a humanity that can agree upon the truth of Einstein’s general theory of relativity–incredibly complex equations–but a humanity that cannot agree upon whether or not the marriage of two persons of the same gender is a violation of objective moral law. The true believer says, “they know they’re wrong, deep down–or ought to know–but they persist in their wrongdoing.” And that’s precisely what the other side is saying, about them.

Good people disagree about what is best for their children but they all believe they should do their best for their children. We are not expected to be infallible but impeccable - as far as possible. Our limited knowledge and intelligence inevitably lead to a wide variety of opinions yet there is a moral consensus expressed in the Declaration of Human Rights. Scientific truths command more agreement but they have far less significance than moral values and principles.

If there is an afterlife it is a mistake to stake everything on this life. The values of this world are limited to earthly success and enjoyment but the morality given to us by Jesus is based on nobler ideals which may entail sacrificing our life for complete strangers. In the eyes of many people this is sheer folly. So it is remarkable that His teaching has survived for two thousand years and is accepted by one third of the human race throughout the world. In my view it is because the truth shines by its own light. The mediocrity of hedonism does not satisfy anyone who is inspired by the unselfish love of the Galilean…
 
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