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rcwitness
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Do different churches claim to have the “Chair of Peter”, only in different definitions???
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Peter_J
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A fair question, but I think you’re missing what ben said:
I note that he specifically said “Rome”.
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PJM
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I don’t do videos; BUT
When one reads carefully and literally in this sequence; there can be no logical doubt about the “It” in Mt. 16: 18
Mt. 10: 15 talking note of God sharing in a limited manner some of His Godly Powers
Mt. 16:15-19 tying in yjr “It” to YOU Peter & Rock with “MY church” [singular
Jumping to John 17:18-20 "As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. [19] And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [20] And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;**
Then Mt. 28: 16-20 “And the eleven disciples [remaining Apostles after Judas hung himself] went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them.] And seeing him they adored: but some doubted [Pre-Pentecost].[18] And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. [19] Going therefore, teach YOU all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. [20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded YOU: and behold I am with YOU all days, even to the consummation of the world”
So "it " is “IT”
.God Bless you; let then wiggle, but it won’t shake the truth!
Patrick
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benjohnson
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Indeed! Thanks for understating what I’d meant and giving me an out - I almost committed myself to RCIA there.I think you have one too many/few negations in that sentence… but that aside I’m curious: is it a traditional Lutheran position that Rome (and not eg the Orthodox or the OOs) has the chair of Peter?
As I understand it, most Lutherans think that the Bishop of Rome could be rightly called the heir to St. Peter - the trouble is that we think the office has grown a bit. And that the office is anti-christ. Just ignore that bit and we can all join hands and sing songs together. See… you forgot what I just said and we’re holding hands. And now we’re singing. La La LA!
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MT1926
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Could you elaborate on what you mean when you say it has “grown a bit”?Indeed! Thanks for understating what I’d meant and giving me an out - I almost committed myself to RCIA there.
As I understand it, most Lutherans think that the Bishop of Rome could be rightly called the heir to St. Peter - the trouble is that we think the office has grown a bit. And that the office is anti-christ. Just ignore that bit and we can all join hands and sing songs together. See… you forgot what I just said and we’re holding hands. And now we’re singing. La La LA!
I’m gonna ignore the rest of the statement but I truly want to understand what “grown a bit” means. Examples and objections would be great.
Thanks
Matthew 19:26
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Peter_J
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Well, it used to be just a cubicle you know.
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MT1926
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Never new they used cubicles back in the first century.
Learn something new everyday. I am so glad I joined the forum.
Matthew 19:26
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Peter_J
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I was almost going to make an “Office” joke in the sense of Michael Scott, but it didn’t seem to come naturally.Never new they used cubicles back in the first century.
Learn something new everyday. I am so glad I joined the forum.
Matthew 19:26
Anyhow, welcome.
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benjohnson
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Sure!
Historically - the chair of St. Peter was given primacy - a first among equals. Ecumenical councils with the majority of Bishops would discern the will of God in deciding important matters.
A few years ago, the Pope and the Catholic Church announced that these same concerns would be decided by the Pope and wouldn’t require a council. With the Pope given “full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church”.
Lutherans and Othordox Christians don’t quite agree - Lutherans placing the importance of Scripture as God’s Word, and tradition as giving voice to God’s promise.
…
Another ‘broadening’ of the powers, about 600 years ago In Unam Sanctam - the Pope announced that salvation is dependent on “being subject to the Roman Pontiff”.
Lutherans and Orthodox Christians don’t agree - Lutherans specifically would say that a saving faith in Christ Jesus is of ultimate importance.
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MT1926
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Thanks.
I’m still learning my church history, so I will look those up.
Matthew 19:26
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benjohnson
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If I may caution - even if you find something that is scandalous, this Lutheran would tell you that the Catholic church proclaims the Gospel and administers the Sacraments. Many of the issues we Lutherans can gripe about were only enacted or followed because of necessity or sincere desire to God’s will.
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rcwitness
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Primacy is synonymous with supremacy. Any Pope, as an individual Christian, is of equal standing with ALL Christians in God’s eyes. His office, is a different story. As holder of the office, he is afforded the authority to “bind” and “loose” “whatever”. His error is protected against by the Lord Himself, whether he is in a state of grace or not. “I have prayed that your faith may not fail…”
This statement must be taken with lots in mind! And it’s own thread perhaps. Which I’m sure there are several which do address it. And consider all Christians give submission to the Church when accepting the Canon of Sacred Scripture.
Of course the Catholic faith is not in opposition to this!!! But we believe “faith in Christ” leads to subjection to ALL our leaders! These leaders are not in opposition to one another.
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benjohnson
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Agreed in that Catholics look to Christ and Him Crucified for salvation. And Popes have been judicious in exercising the power they fell they have.
I would argue that the ecumenical councils would not have been needed if the early church understood primacy as being supremacy.
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rcwitness
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I think this comes from not understanding how the Magisterium operates. The pope doesn’t just receive the will of the Father regarding matters of the faith directly from Him alone. He usually only needs to recognize what is being proposed by the faithful. Yet his “approval” or “Confirmation” when Teaching Ex-Cathedra is guided by God.
Acts 15 is a great example of how it works. The Church comes together about a matter and puts it on the table. If there is not unanimous agreement, then the Pope has the authority to declare, such as Peter did.
And Peter had ALREADY commanded that these converts were to be Baptized before the need for circumcision in Acts 10
47*“Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
The Church could have just asked Peter, it would have been easier. But they were stubborn!
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benjohnson
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Petrine approval or confirmation of ecumenical councils would not be an issue for Lutherans, I don’t think.
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rcwitness
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Well does the Lutheran faith have Petrine Confirmation?
I believe much of the Lutheran faith does have Petrie Confirmation. Otherwise it would be separated from the Catholic faith completely.
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TonyBS
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To me the “It” has many and very significant meanings, it is the Basis of the Covenant of God with the Christians to Come.The it is the church .
Keep the faith , Starwars
That is, that Peter,s belief and Understanding of Christs Teachings were the Foundation of Belief that would build the Faith of Christianity in the Future.
Thus it is against the foundation of that belief that nothing will concur and the Church was to be Built upon obedience to this way.
Summary - Peters faith is the Foundation/Corner Stone, the Church was to be built upon this. If the Church remains Faithful to the Covenant, it would not be overcome.
God bless all and regards Tony
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rcwitness
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So how are we Confirmed what “Peter’s” faith is in various matters within the faith? And isn’t this why Jesus prays for Peter’s “faith” to not fail, so he can strengthen or confirm the others? This is what we believe the office possesses when we submit to the Bishop of Rome speaking Ex-Cathedra. IOWs, we all have one faith when unified through the Bishop’s official Teaching. There are levels of importance in these doctrines. The fact that Jesus is the Son of God and man, is one of the highest!
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Peter_J
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You sure you’re not Catholic?
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