The Jeffersonian Compromise

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In most political conversation, this is not a point of contention. In the case of abortion of course it is. Part of the democratic process in such cases is hashing out agreement on such definitions. What is ruled out of the discussion, however, is appeals to Holy Books to settle the matter for us. They can’t serve as legal justifications given the First Amendment which protects your freedom of religion.
You are also free to disagree with a law. And I agree that Holy Books hold no sway in the democratic process.

But laws always proceed from the values of their enactors, and these enactors may have religious reasons for valuing the things they do. Why should they not be able to appeal to the religious reasons of other people, in the public sphere?
 
There really ought to be no such thing as Christian and Sharia morality any more than there ought to be Christian physics or Sharia genetic theory.

I’ve never heard of Christian physics or Sharia genetics.

But if Christians vote for a president who will undo things like Roe v. Wade, that is their prerogative. When they vote for a president who appoints Justices who will vote the Christian way, in effect you have the influence of Christianity on the law. They don’t have to invoke their Christian heritage re: Roe v. Wade, for example. All they have to do is appeal to the natural law and common sense. We should not kill our children, in the womb or outside it. Christianity morality is build on common sense. No one has the right to insist that the law reflect uncommon nonsense, such as that women should marry each other, or men should marry each other.
 
Leela, Thanks for your kind words.

Unfortunately, I think there is enough evidence to conclude that Sharia Law is significantly different from Christian Morality.

Christ updated the “eye for an eye” justice, to love your enemy. Christ also said let him without sin cast the first stone. They all walked away.

There is much to respect in Islam, but there are elements of justice (Morality) that is completely outdated. I am not willing to naively promote freedom of religion and allow Sharia Law a toehold in America.

The word Islam means submission. What happens if one does not submit or worse falls away from Islam? With Christ, we let the wheat and the chaff grow and the winnowing comes at harvest. In Islam, those who leave Islam and those who create too much of a problem can be killed in this life. Most in Islam today do not kill the Apostate or infidel, but we see that some do. In the spirit of submission, few speak out against such horrible behavior in the name of Islam.

So when we see Cordoba House in a building damaged on 9-11, and AFTER we learned that another well like leader(by the US Media) advised some 9-11 hijackers, Major Hasan, and two more guys who tried to kill us his past year, PRUDENCE does suggest we take a closer look to be sure we are not being conned yet again.

Cordoba was the name a beautiful 8th century mosque build at a Christian Church site after a Muslim conquest. We should not ignore the symbolism of the choice of name.

If truly for PEACE, who would argue so much? But the location is completely insensitive. And we have been conned before. Let’s check this one much more closely. Seeing how insensitive it is, why not relocate, if PEACE is indeed the goal of Cordoba House? The builders are not submitting to the will of the people. They expect us to submit to their decision because we treasure freedom of religion. Well, we do, but prudently, not naively.

TJ and the boys in 1776 did not have this issue on their radar (1) screens, if I may mix images from different centuries.

(1) I’m an old early warning radar operator.😉
 
But if Christians vote for a president who will undo things like Roe v. Wade, that is their prerogative. When they vote for a president who appoints Justices who will vote the Christian way, in effect you have the influence of Christianity on the law. They don’t have to invoke their Christian heritage re: Roe v. Wade, for example. All they have to do is appeal to the natural law and common sense. We should not kill our children, in the womb or outside it. Christianity morality is build on common sense. No one has the right to insist that the law reflect uncommon nonsense, such as that women should marry each other, or men should marry each other.
If Roe v Wade ever gets overturned, it won’t be because of any religious argument. You do understand that don’t you?

For example, consider the 2003 Lawrence v. Texas decision which struck down sodomy laws. The Court decided that, “the Texas statute furthers no legitimate state interest which can justify its intrusion into the personal and private life of the individual.” Religious arguments against sodomy were not even deemed worthy of consideration. Secular “legitimate state interests” were what would have been needed to maintain anti-sodomy laws. Those secular reasons presented by Texas were found to be unconvincing. In oral argument Justice Breyer summarized the justifications Texas offered for outlawing sodomy:
“…you said procreation, marriage and children, those are your three justifications. Now from what you recently said, I don’t see what it has to do with marriage, since, in fact, marriage has nothing to do with the conduct that either this or other statutes do or don’t forbid. I don’t see what it has to do with children, since, in fact, the gay people can certainly adopt children and they do. And I don’t see what it has to do with procreation, because that’s the same as the children. All right. So… so what is the justification for this statute, other than, you know, it’s not what they say on the other side, is this is simply, I do not like thee, Doctor Fell, the reason why I cannot tell.”

The Lawrence ruling of 2003 overturned the previous Bowers v. Hardwick decision which had, incorrectly as it turned out, upheld sodomy laws. Justice Stephens wrote the dissenting opinion at that time which was cited in the majority decision in the Lawrence case:
“Bowers’ rationale does not withstand careful analysis. In his dissenting opinion in Bowers Justice Stevens concluded that (1) the fact a State’s governing majority has traditionally viewed a particular practice as immoral is not a sufficient reason for upholding a law prohibiting the practice, and (2) individual decisions concerning the intimacies of physical relationships, even when not intended to produce offspring, are a form of “liberty” protected by due process. That analysis should have controlled Bowers, and it controls here. Bowers was not correct when it was decided, is not correct today, and is hereby overruled.”

It is not sufficient to show that something is or even always has been considered to be immoral, there must be some state interest in forbidding it. There must be some non-religious basis for a case against it. It is in no way enough to argue, say, that in this country right now the Shias (or the Catholics, or the Jains, or the Sikhs) think it is immoral based on their holy book, and since they are the majority it ought to be illegal for everyone. It is not always enough to be a majority in a democracy where all citizens have an individual right to freedom of religion that a majority can’t vote away.

Legal practice shows us that the Law is not just the laws, it is also the implicit or explicit reasoning in support of the laws since laws are always subject to judicial review with respect to the Constitution. What the Constitution itself means is also open to continuous debate. The laws and the Constitution are interpreted by recurring to generated lines of reasoning which situate the words on the pages within a web of justification. This web constructed by lines of reasoning is functionally the Law itself. It is not just a set of rules, but also the reasonings that support them. If lines of religious reasoning that depend on premises requiring belief in a particular religion are allowed to become embedded into the law, then we have lost our right to believe and practice whatever religion we personally choose. We will have instead been required by law to practice one religion in particular.

Custom ought to forbid religious reason-giving in support or opposition to all laws. Such reasonings ought to be regarded as irrelevant, since religious premises–premises which cannot be accepted without subscribing to a particular religion–cannot not be admitted as legal justification given the Constitutional guarantee of religious freedom. While people are free to have opinions about the law informed by their religions, we ought to insist that the reasoning politicians tell their constituents for voting on a law be reasoning that will pass Constitutional muster, reasoning that we all can at least in principle find convincing.

Best,
Leela
 
Leela
*
If Roe v Wade ever gets overturned, it won’t be because of any religious argument. You do understand that don’t you?*

As I said above (apparently you missed it) if Roe v Wade is overturned the rational will be natural law and commons sense: we do not kill our children. Natural law and common sense are on the side of Christianity, not the dictatorship of relativism. 👍
 
You are also free to disagree with a law. And I agree that Holy Books hold no sway in the democratic process.

But laws always proceed from the values of their enactors, and these enactors may have religious reasons for valuing the things they do. Why should they not be able to appeal to the religious reasons of other people, in the public sphere?
I just don’t know what religious reasons even are as distinct from reasons that are available to everyone regardless of religion, that is, unless they are bare appeals to religious authority which the First Amendment tells us we are not required to respect. It is your choice whether to respect such authority in your own decisions, but when it comes to making laws that make demands on everyone else, that doesn’t fly. Such reasons are out of bounds in justifying a law since we all have a right to justifications for all laws which do not depend on the authority of a religion. If we didn’t then we would be in the position of being required to submit to a majority religion. We should all be glad to have a political system where we can’t be required to practice a religion by through the coercion of the state.

Can you give an example of a religious reason for justifying a law that cannot be justified in secular terms? One that ought to be admitted as legal justification but is disallowed by the Jefferson Compromise?
 
Leela, Thanks for your kind words.

Unfortunately, I think there is enough evidence to conclude that Sharia Law is significantly different from Christian Morality.

Christ updated the “eye for an eye” justice, to love your enemy. Christ also said let him without sin cast the first stone. They all walked away.

There is much to respect in Islam, but there are elements of justice (Morality) that is completely outdated. I am not willing to naively promote freedom of religion and allow Sharia Law a toehold in America.
Supporting the Jeffersonian Compromise protects religious freedom while also preventing (along with the rest of the Constitutional Bill of Rights) the possibility of Sharia Law replacing democratic ideals of justice.
The word Islam means submission. What happens if one does not submit or worse falls away from Islam? With Christ, we let the wheat and the chaff grow and the winnowing comes at harvest. In Islam, those who leave Islam and those who create too much of a problem can be killed in this life. Most in Islam today do not kill the Apostate or infidel, but we see that some do. In the spirit of submission, few speak out against such horrible behavior in the name of Islam.

So when we see Cordoba House in a building damaged on 9-11, and AFTER we learned that another well like leader(by the US Media) advised some 9-11 hijackers, Major Hasan, and two more guys who tried to kill us his past year, PRUDENCE does suggest we take a closer look to be sure we are not being conned yet again.

Cordoba was the name a beautiful 8th century mosque build at a Christian Church site after a Muslim conquest. We should not ignore the symbolism of the choice of name.

If truly for PEACE, who would argue so much? But the location is completely insensitive. And we have been conned before. Let’s check this one much more closely. Seeing how insensitive it is, why not relocate, if PEACE is indeed the goal of Cordoba House? The builders are not submitting to the will of the people. They expect us to submit to their decision because we treasure freedom of religion. Well, we do, but prudently, not naively.

TJ and the boys in 1776 did not have this issue on their radar (1) screens, if I may mix images from different centuries.

(1) I’m an old early warning radar operator.😉
One mistake that atheists in the US typically make is to balance out anyone’s criticisms of Islam with a criticism of Christianity. That are not at all equally problematic in this day and age. I would take Christian “extremists” over Muslim ones any day. You are absolutely correct that Islam as it commonly practiced is far less compatible with liberal democracy than Christianity generally is. It is entirely possible and very common for Christians to be committed (small-d) democrats. It seems far less common among Muslims and impossible so long as one is committed to Sharia Law and sanctioned murders of apostates.
 
I just don’t know what religious reasons even are as distinct from reasons that are available to everyone regardless of religion, that is, unless they are bare appeals to religious authority which the First Amendment tells us we are not required to respect. It is your choice whether to respect such authority in your own decisions, but when it comes to making laws that make demands on everyone else, that doesn’t fly. Such reasons are out of bounds in justifying a law since we all have a right to justifications for all laws which do not depend on the authority of a religion. If we didn’t then we would be in the position of being required to submit to a majority religion. We should all be glad to have a political system where we can’t be required to practice a religion by through the coercion of the state.

Can you give an example of a religious reason for justifying a law that cannot be justified in secular terms? One that ought to be admitted as legal justification but is disallowed by the Jefferson Compromise?
  1. All human beings are created equal. Or, alternately:
  2. All human beings are equally valuable, under the law.
I don’t believe that there are any secular *justifications *for #1 or #2. This does not mean that a nonreligious person may not choose #1 or #2 as a first principle, I suppose.

But the larger point is this: **if Senator JoeBob is making a speech, and says that we ought to free the slaves because every person is equally dignified under God, and uses a Scripture passage to back up this claim, how has Senator JoeBob violated the separation of church and state? **Any atheist is free to agree or disagree with the senator’s statement. In your view, has JoeBob crossed the line? :confused:
 
“A government is a set of laws and institutions, and for our government to be secular (of this world), the justification for the existence of all its specific laws and specific institutions must all be arguable based on premises referring only to this world.”

won’t work. needs a moral basis for laws that is “out of this world”, i.e objective beyond man. or else spiral down into anarchy. or to a nazi or communist type state where those in power forcibly turn others (Jews, Slavs) into slaves, using them w/o feeding them, letting them starve, be medical guinea pigs, or just outright killing them for ‘fun’. Watch the concentration camp scenes in Schindler’s List for a graphic image of what I am talking about. Is this the kind of world you want?
 
As a Catholic American I am for the separation of Church and State. By that I mean that Church Leaders should NOT be endorsing candidates. Church leaders should NOT be funding candidates. The government should NOT fund one religion over another or any religion.

Church leaders should preach to their flocks about PERSONAL MORAL RESPONSIBILITIES. Then it is up to the churchgoers to decide what candidate they back.

I think America has done very well in keeping Church and State separate and maintaining a reasonable degree of tolerance for all religions and non regilious people.

But I also think it imperative that we voters look to the underlaying MORALITY of our candidates when we vote. I cannot in good conscience vote for candidates that say they will support laws I believe to be immoral.

I am not aware of those who adequately explain how something many of us tthink o be immoral is in fact moral. All they have is, "It’s my right. "

Good Civil Law must comport well with Moral Law. In American that Moral Law is Christian, not Sharia, not Amoral.
What is your standard for defining morality? Where does it come from?

God bless,
Ed
 
Most of this post in great. Only that last sentence concerns me. Morality is not the possession of any particular religious tradition. There really ought to be no such thing as Christian and Sharia morality any more than there ought to be Christian physics or Sharia genetic theory. When we actually have good reason to believe something, such as that E=mc**2 or that it is good to avoid inflicting unnecessary suffering on others, then such knowledge transcends any particular cultural or religious tradition.

Best,
Leela
“inflicting unnecessary suffering on others”? In the United States, what are you talking about? Morality is not a multiple choice issue. The Church has identified the current Dictatorship of Relativism. And it is built on a simple contradictory statement: There are no absolutes!" Do you believe that? Absolutely.

Everyone on this planet can act as a moral agent but what defines morality for you? There is other knowledge that does transcend what man can know.

God bless,
Ed
 
At any rate, in order to protect our religious freedom, we certainly do still need it today. That is why we are fortunate to have this compromise written into the Constitution as part of the Bill of Rights.

What do you say? Deal?
No deal. Who decides when something has been proved using appropriate sources? I’m not going to ignore all truth but what I can prove on a materialistic basis, because that is to base the government on a lie.

The government shouldn’t fund religion, like it does in Germany and (I believe still) the UK. People should not be denied public service jobs because they are the wrong religion, which happened well into the 20th century in Northern Ireland. People should not be executed because they have converted from one religion to another, and no force whatsoever should be allowed to cause anyone to convert. People should not be taxed at different rates based on their religion.

However, materialistic atheism is a religious position, and it is no more fair to force all laws to pass its criteria than it is to require everyone to attend Mass every week. “There shall be no establishment of a state religion” is vastly different from “The established state religion shall be atheism.”

In any case, having (for example) a privately paid-for creche on public land at Christmas is not creating a state religion. It’s not forcing, coercing, or even pursuading anyone to change religions. In my experience, devout Jewish and Muslim people are not bothered by such things.

The fact of the existance of God, and His revelation of His will for us, is a central fact of my existence and I refuse to leave it outside the polling place, nor do I desire all politicians to leave it outside the Capitol.

There is nothing in any part of the Constitution that says that people’s religious beliefs (including those of elected officials) should not inform their voting decisions on moral issues.

If later on this comes around to hurt American Catholics, I accept that possibility, and I hope that I will be strong enough to go to jail or suffer whatever penalty required to stand up for my rights not just to practice my religion but to actually believe in it and allow it to inform my actions.

The actual effects of your position are that only atheists in public office would be allowed to vote their consciences at all times, because none of their beliefs would be religiously based. Instead they would be based on personal preference, the views of various philosophers, whatever pseudo-science they happened to pick up misrepresented in a newspaper (these are politicians still, not scientists), whatever the guy at the raquet club said yesterday, etc. While at the same time, anyone who believed in God (still a great majority here) would have to prove that his views were not based on religion before he could vote them. It doesn’t sound like the free exercise of religion to me.

In any case, as a Virginian, I highly object to your stating your position under Jefferson’s name. I do not think he would recognize or endorse your position as stated. The “wall of separation” letter was written to reassure a religious minority that its freedom to practice religion in its own way was not something that they enjoyed as some sort of favor from the government, but something that they had a right to (at least at a federal level). It was not in any way that people shouldn’t be allowed to enact laws based on moral principles that are based in personal religious belief. You are putting words into Mr. Jefferson’s mouth that I’m pretty sure he would spit out.

–Jen
 
If Roe v Wade ever gets overturned, it won’t be because of any religious argument. You do understand that don’t you?

For example, consider the 2003 Lawrence v. Texas decision which struck down sodomy laws. The Court decided that, “the Texas statute furthers no legitimate state interest which can justify its intrusion into the personal and private life of the individual.” Religious arguments against sodomy were not even deemed worthy of consideration. Secular “legitimate state interests” were what would have been needed to maintain anti-sodomy laws. Those secular reasons presented by Texas were found to be unconvincing. In oral argument Justice Breyer summarized the justifications Texas offered for outlawing sodomy:
“…you said procreation, marriage and children, those are your three justifications. Now from what you recently said, I don’t see what it has to do with marriage, since, in fact, marriage has nothing to do with the conduct that either this or other statutes do or don’t forbid. I don’t see what it has to do with children, since, in fact, the gay people can certainly adopt children and they do. And I don’t see what it has to do with procreation, because that’s the same as the children. All right. So… so what is the justification for this statute, other than, you know, it’s not what they say on the other side, is this is simply, I do not like thee, Doctor Fell, the reason why I cannot tell.”

The Lawrence ruling of 2003 overturned the previous Bowers v. Hardwick decision which had, incorrectly as it turned out, upheld sodomy laws. Justice Stephens wrote the dissenting opinion at that time which was cited in the majority decision in the Lawrence case:
“Bowers’ rationale does not withstand careful analysis. In his dissenting opinion in Bowers Justice Stevens concluded that (1) the fact a State’s governing majority has traditionally viewed a particular practice as immoral is not a sufficient reason for upholding a law prohibiting the practice, and (2) individual decisions concerning the intimacies of physical relationships, even when not intended to produce offspring, are a form of “liberty” protected by due process. That analysis should have controlled Bowers, and it controls here. Bowers was not correct when it was decided, is not correct today, and is hereby overruled.”

It is not sufficient to show that something is or even always has been considered to be immoral, there must be some state interest in forbidding it. There must be some non-religious basis for a case against it. It is in no way enough to argue, say, that in this country right now the Shias (or the Catholics, or the Jains, or the Sikhs) think it is immoral based on their holy book, and since they are the majority it ought to be illegal for everyone. It is not always enough to be a majority in a democracy where all citizens have an individual right to freedom of religion that a majority can’t vote away.

Legal practice shows us that the Law is not just the laws, it is also the implicit or explicit reasoning in support of the laws since laws are always subject to judicial review with respect to the Constitution. What the Constitution itself means is also open to continuous debate. The laws and the Constitution are interpreted by recurring to generated lines of reasoning which situate the words on the pages within a web of justification. This web constructed by lines of reasoning is functionally the Law itself. It is not just a set of rules, but also the reasonings that support them. If lines of religious reasoning that depend on premises requiring belief in a particular religion are allowed to become embedded into the law, then we have lost our right to believe and practice whatever religion we personally choose. We will have instead been required by law to practice one religion in particular.

Custom ought to forbid religious reason-giving in support or opposition to all laws. Such reasonings ought to be regarded as irrelevant, since religious premises–premises which cannot be accepted without subscribing to a particular religion–cannot not be admitted as legal justification given the Constitutional guarantee of religious freedom. While people are free to have opinions about the law informed by their religions, we ought to insist that the reasoning politicians tell their constituents for voting on a law be reasoning that will pass Constitutional muster, reasoning that we all can at least in principle find convincing.

Best,
Leela
“regarded as irrelevant”? Then why do you post here? I recognize that the Catholic Church teaches both spiritual and for lack of a better term, secular truth. You insisting otherwise is not about allowing our freedom but in limiting our thinking to a set of principles imposed by men without consideration of divine revelation.

I find the Catholic abortion argument convincing. You seem to forget that whoever holds power in this country is in a place where laws can be manipulated unfairly. People are people, even if they sit on a Supreme Court bench. I am still shocked that penumbras and emanations somehow created out of the Constitution allowed for mass killing.

The bottom line: an ongoing power struggle is occurring. To assume it is not is naive at best and dangerous to all liberties at worst.

God bless,
Ed
 
In other words, you’re asking whether we would be foolish enough to superficially hang onto our metaphysical and Scriptural beliefs while failing to follow through with the worldly implications they carry, all in favor of a still-controversial – but “compassionate”! – political philosophy which nonetheless depends on a particular groundwork of metaphysics and epistemology itself, and mostly, I suppose, because you happen to “feel” it’s… better? more utility-maximizing? most suited to whatever sates your environmentally determined, subjective whims? more conducive to the survival of the species, which, for some universal reason, is the undeniable summum bonum?

Even if I were just a narrow-minded Christian fool, I’d probably be at least selfishly keen enough to realize that my own primal interests are best served by steadfastly refusing to budge re: the theocratic imposition of my tribalistic superstitions onto others. I mean, come on, we do constitute a majority. As long as we sit stubbornly enough in place, and either maintain enough ignorance to avoid the coercive shame of being thought irrational, or just pretend to, we’ll continue exerting our power by numbers over all you people who impulsively received different, tragically atypical, doxastic schemes from your culture and patriarchal ancestry.

On the other hand, assuming I actually value Truth, even over Power and Autonomy, you may wish to provide a delimitation of your two seminal terms, namely, ‘secular’ and ‘religious.’ Upon so doing, you would also be wise to offer clear(er) arguments in support of the position you hold, so that more of us – those for whom a disputable appeal to strictly the heart or the “intuition” is insufficient – may be swayed according to a more objective, agreeable, and common basis. Then, just maybe, we could be moved and governed with dignity by reason and not by the more whimsical and unstable forces of, for instance, chance, violence, political lobbying, or even emotional rhetoric.

And if possible, assuming that you wish to persuade reasonably and not merely to “vent” or sophistically manipulate, your chain of logic should trace, at least roughly, back to principles and premises that you’re justified in thinking most of us accept. Not ones that tenuously rest on certain, perhaps fashionable, philosophical assumptions of yours [e.g., that only the “secular” is within the range of the knowable; that the primary functions or interests of government ought to be, whether in principle or in practice, confined solely to the “*this-worldly” (another ambiguous term; whence derives this notion that God and religious concerns wouldn’t remain relevant immanently within this world?); that the contents of “this world” are not only what are paramount to the very secular vs. religious political debate in the first place, but are somehow the glorious epistemological foundation humanity has always politically dreamed of with harmonious unity; that the vaguely-expressed threshold of controversy, at which you’ve somewhat arbitrarily deemed one should compromise his principles in favor of agreement, or “peace,” is warranted, as opposed to being just a convenient policy by which a harmful minority might gradually impose itself through passionate overreaction surrounding forced (non-)issues; etc ad nauseam]. Since you’re the one, consciously or not, placing the mere absence of disagreement on a pedestal, apparently in the Name of the Triumph of the Will, simply due to your unjustified distrust of any other methods for finding the true Good, then it’s a surprise you aren’t digging deeper and employing more elementary premises (i.e., ones essentially universal to Man).

I’m curious as to what a Pragmatist does when arguably the sole, most effective strategy that will “work” is the offer of rationally discovered and explicated truth.
 
Leela

(1) Polygamy was opposed by a fundamentally Christian culture. Do you believe that outlawing bigamy was wrong because it was rooted in a Christian bias against polygamy?

(2) Incest has always been condemned in Christian societies. Marriage contracts between parents and their adult children have never been allowed anywhere in the world. If parents and their children suddenly decided they wanted the right to marry, would you support that right?

(3) Christianity has always opposed homosexuality as unnatural, and never in the history of the world has any society been asked to endorse marriage contracts between members of the same sex. Do you support such marriages?

In the above three instances, do you support all demands for rights, or only some? If only some, which one(s)? 😃
 
Ed,
*
The bottom line: an ongoing power struggle is occurring. To assume it is not is naive at best and dangerous to all liberties at worst.*

Well said. The Christian liberty to act as the majority has very much been overcome by the secular minorities in this country. The main instrument of power for the secular minority has been, and still is, the courts, who routinely overturn all legislation contrary to the secular philosophy that despises all things religious.

This is a war, and we are in it to the finish. :slapfight:
 
My Moral Code is from the Judeo-Christain Bible. The Ten Commandments, The Book of Proverbs, Jesus Christ, the New Testament, the teachings of the Catholic Church, to highlight important points of the Code.

I believe that God does exist, that there is a Heaven and Hell, and my eternal destination depends on how well I live a Moral Life and on God’s Mercy because I am not perfect and do not live as morally as I should.

To assist me and all others who will end in Heaven or Hell, I WANT a government that pays attention to Morality as it makes laws applicable to all of any faith or no faith at all. America is a Christian based country, not Mulsim based, not Communist based, not Amoral based.

I want Laws that maintain and enhance the HONOR of our society.

The problem with Laws is there has to be punishment if the Laws are violated. We just cannot put so many people in jail. Maybe we could fine them. But there is a conflict, I think, between Laws that maintain the HONOR or a society and the effort to punish too many violators.

The underlaying need is better education. In school, at home, and in Churches of various demoninations. We end up getting the government we deserve. Many of us do want better, but many also want complete freedom to do whatever, especially in sex and drugs. Not much HONOR in wanton behavior.

The State does have an interest in maintaining an HONORABLE society as opposed to anything goes.

Good civil law must comport well with Moral Law. America is pre-dominately a Christian country and thus our Moral Code is from the Bible. We have done very well in maintaining freedoms of others, but lately I see a rush to separate Moral Law form Civil Law. I oppose that.
 
Most laws are about limiting and controlling certain behaviors and actions. You might argue with someone but you can’t hit him in the face. You can drive but you can’t go past the speed limit or drive drunk.

Sadly, too many people expect something else to control their behavior, and someone else to solve their problem.

Human sexuality is being badly abused around the world. The primary problem? Controlling your own behavior. I don’t wish to be too dramatic, but the basic message some people believe is: I Can’t Control Myself! I can’t stop myself!!

AIDS is not transmitted through the air or by casual contact. Yes, research needs to be done to help those who have it, but what about people controlling themselves?

Do we really need:

The Pill
Condoms
Morning After Pill
IUD
Spermicidal jelly or foam

???

Honestly. I read a special issue of TIME magazine that described the coming medical advances for the next 15 years. But, a letter appeared in the following issue from a doctor who was also the head of a national medical organization. His complaint? “After reading the entire issue, I did not see the word behavior mentioned once. Even if all of these medical advances come to pass, half the population of this country would still be at risk for major illnesses.”

This is the point. Today, people are encouraged to hook up with strangers for meaningless ‘just sex.’ It’s promoted on TV. Sex with strangers. Is this rational? When they find your body, how do they find the person who killed you? Or, like a friend of mine, you end up with genital herpes, for life. And when that relationship ends, what do you tell your wife to be?

Sure, people make mistakes. Hey, God knows I’m not perfect, but I must pray and work to do better. All Catholics are called to pick up their cross daily and follow Jesus.

But even if you do not believe in God, why are you putting yourself in harm’s way like this? Why are you putting your trust in a device or chemical? Wouldn’t it be a lot more sensible and more fulfilling to actually get to know someone? Perhaps develop a bond of trust and friendship? There is a small group that will tell you that women are the ‘victim class’ in our society, but do you want to treat any woman as a disposable object? As someone who is only useful for a short while?

These are the questions we need to ask ourselves. There are a number of lonely people out there who did it randomly and haphazardly, and some will tell you the other party ‘consented’ as if that made it OK. Unless you’re looking forward to a future where your close friends are your computer or a dog and a 40 ounce beer, I suggest you reconsider and make a plan. Friendship and companionship are at the heart of human relationships, when did sex become a separate type of human relationship?

The prostitute down the street wants nothing to do with you beyond a transaction. That’s not a healthy human relationship.

God bless,
Ed
 
Leela,
In your compromised country, would I be able to not prescribe a ‘morning after pill’ as a pharmacist to a woman who came seeking it, on the grounds that I morally object -or will the secular law of the land require me to prescribe it?
 
Everyone on this planet can act as a moral agent but what defines morality for you? There is other knowledge that does transcend what man can know.
I can’t see anyway of shirking the responsibility for deciding for one’s self what is best. Can you?
 
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