The Jehovah Witnesses taking over small Latino neighborhoods

[badnewsbarrett]

I’ve noticed the Mormons going after Hispanics, former Catholics, and doing missions in Latin American countries MUCH more often. Why are Catholics so much easier for these groups to convert?!

Why are Hispanic Catholics easier to convert, is the question. Partly, at least in the US, it has to do with relocation and assimilation that may cause Hispanics in the US to be just a bit more likely to leave Catholicism- but you do specifically talk about missions in Latin American countries, and I did see you point that out too. I have noticed a bit of this as well. If I may, I’ll attempt to answer from an Evangelical perspective, especially where conversion is concerned.

There is something related to Evangelicalism called the Bebbington Quadrilateral. According to this quadrilateral, Evangelicals have four leading characteristics- biblicism, crucicentrism, conversionism, and activism. JWs and Mormons are not Evangelicals, of course, but I think that one point on the quadrilateral is worth talking about because there is a bit of an intersection where the JWs and Mormons have much in common with Evangelicals and less in common with Catholics. That point is Conversionism.

Conversionism doesn’t exactly mean to convert. To convert basically means to renounce one affiliation for another; that is not really what conversionism is about.

Precisely, in religious terms, conversionism refers to a sudden and dramatic experience of God which brings about a profound change in your religious status. encyclopedia.com/doc/1O88-conversionism.html I once was lost but now am found, you just passed from death to life, that sort of thing. Now, I want to be clear that there is also a distinction to be made between the average experience of Catholics in English-speaking parts of the world as opposed to Latin America- I also want to be clear in saying that Catholicism heartily affirms conversionism, and even affirms and encourages constant, ongoing conversion throughout life, most especially in association with participation in the sacramental life of the Church. It isn’t exactly the same as conversionism as it’s defined and approached within Evangelicalism (or, to a great extent, with the Mormons and JWs) but there is enough in the way of similarities.

Among Latin American Catholics, however, from what I can say and see there appears to be more of a familial and community connection to Catholicism. There are plenty of reverent people who care about Mary in a very special way and participate in the sacraments, but in the midst of all that, there’s less of a connection between conversionism and a given individual’s Christian identity. Christian identity is tied much more to being born into a certain family or born into a certain type of community. Even if you go right with that and are basically happy with being a Catholic, there’s more of a sense that you were kind of always a Christian- and then of course being baptized as an infant may contribute somewhat to the feel of fait accompli.

With that being said, the World Youth Day types of events reach out to teens and young adults in just the right way, and those are the types of things that encourage conversionism in a wholly Catholic setting that is designed to encourage continual conversion building on that. Absent that type of presence and influence, however, I would say that in Latin America- in ways that also make Latin American Catholics distinct from Catholics in the United States- the idea behind conversionism is absent, and so is any hint of actual conversion (in the sense of sudden and dramatic experience leading to a profound change in one’s status). Without that, anyone who does emphasize such a thing can have a bit of a competitive advantage.

I want to point out two things before I finish up my post. One- there appears to be two different types of Hispanic parishes in the United States. One type is more charismatic, with an emphasis on spiritual gifts and along with it sudden and dramatic experiences that are closely tied to the idea of conversionism. The other type of Hispanic Catholic parish in the United States focuses much less on that. Things are working out much better for the first type of parish- they lose their young people to Protestantism and lack of affiliation at a much lower rate while evangelizing more and bringing in more new members, while the second type of parish loses people at a truly shocking rate and adds people at an even worse rate where inactivity is concerned. And the other thing I want to point out is this- if you carefully examine the average income levels of non-Catholics in Mexico, you will discover a very consistent trend with one notable outlier that defies the trend. The general trend is this- for all non-Catholic religions except one, somewhere between two-thirds and three-quarters of those people fall below the median income level, and in all cases (with one notable exception) about half of these non-Catholics in any one group are in the lower one-third of wage earners, again based on the median. The lone exception is the Mormons, where it is just the opposite. About 70% of Mormons in Mexico are in the top one-third of wage earners, and the percentage of Mormon Mexicans that fall in the lower one-third is just above single digits.

So apparently, in general, the less wealthy people in Latin America are low-hanging fruit. There are a number of reasons for that, some of which are not directly related to the Catholic Church but some of them do…I will not comment on that right now but some other people may want to. I don’t know why or how it is that Mormons buck the trend so much and manage to be so consistently wealthy compared to the rest of Mexico, but if you look up the Mexican census data from 2010 the data should be clear…at this time, however, I have not located the appropriate link.

 

[badnewsbarrett]

I want to add one more thing- the main forms of Marginal Christianity are Mormonism and Jehovah’s Witness; for Mormons, Mexico has commanded the largest number of members outside the US for a very long time, about 135 years going back almost to the beginning of Mormonism. The reason for that is some early migration of large polygamous families across the border in search of a better life- JWs do not have that sort of history in their back pocket, so their growth is more recent and the overall numbers indicate that they aren’t exactly on the verge of catching up to their marginal/restorationist counterparts. And, with that being said, these forms of Marginal Christianity are not very far out of proportion to the Protestant/Evangelical movement in Mexico when compared to the rough proportions found in the United States. Consequently, I find myself wondering why Marginal Christianity would seem more interesting (threatening perhaps)? than the non-Catholic Christians, and I also find myself wondering why JWs would deserve more attention than Mormons in Mexico. I’m sure there are reasons, and there’s certainly nothing wrong with focusing on the JWs. But I do think that there are other groups that do more to drive overall trends of conversion away from Catholicism in Mexico, and on the whole, it seems like JWs are trying as hard as they can but they are not as effective as they would like to be, whether in absolute or comparative terms.

 

[WilT]

Yes, DJ perhaps you are correct in saying that is sounds harsh. If I new how to reword it I would. Back when Christianity started we started out as a cult then developed into what we are now a full fledge religion.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

Yes, DJ perhaps you are correct in saying that is sounds harsh. If I new how to reword it I would. Back when Christianity started we started out as a cult then developed into what we are now a full fledge religion.

In all fairness, Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t make it easy to define them.

For example, in the early 2000s they carefully worded an official response to the question on shunning on their website. When asked if they shunned former members they gave an answer that skirted the issue, stating: “Those who simply cease to be involved in the faith are not shunned” and that their practice of “disfellowshipping does not sever family ties.” While these are accurate statements, they didn’t answer the question. They do indeed shun former members, whether they “simply cease to be involved” or are disfellowshipped. JWs who have family members who are disfellowshipped have been instructed to limit their contact with such ones, even those who have ‘simply ceased to be involved.’ Why would they avoid just saying “yes, we do shun”? Only they can answer that. But cults are known to skirt around issues like this so it doesn’t help them to avoid being labeled as such.

They are also not honest with the public or themselves about their mistakes. When someone asks them about 1975 they will claim that they never stated that the world would end that year and that only weak members spread such nonsense.

But the truth is that they indeed claimed 1975 would mark the end of 6000 years of human history–and it’s their official teaching that each era of history allows for only 7000 years. The world, according to this doctrine, is to last only 6000 years and then the last 1000 would be set aside for the Millennial Reign of Christ.

Since only members of the Governing Body may new introduce doctrine (and any others that do will be excommunicated/disfellowshipped for doing so), this teaching of 1975 did not originate with “weak members.” Anything incorrect that did circulate about 1975 by members was allowed, otherwise it would have been stopped since Witnesses aren’t allowed and can be removed from the religion for spreading their own beliefs. This didn’t happen because everything every JW was saying about 1975 was within the allowed boundaries. All this gets ignored by current faithful members who fear admitting to anything that may cause doubt in others or themselves. Failure to accept mistakes and to be honest about them with others is also an earmark of questionable religious fanatics, but the Witnesses don’t want to accept that they really did push 1975 as a date for the end.

Yet, for all their failures and denial, the Jehovah’s Witnesses do indeed have a zeal–a very misplaced one albeit–and they sometimes seem to make a large amount of converts from time to time. They may indeed be mistaken, but for most it seems it is an honest mistake. Most of them are convinced of their religion’s truthfulness because they based their convictions on their personal limited scope of knowledge. You will often hear them say: “I know of no other religion that does this or that like the Jehovah’s Witnesses do, etc.” or “I know because I’ve personally studied the matter, and I know the facts.” One cannot make sound conclusions this way as it doesn’t allow for any verification from outside, disinterested sources.

Mistakes like these can be dangerous. They can cause us to listen only to what is favorable while we refuse to take ownership of what harm we have caused by our failures.

One has to be willing to hear the truth about themselves to move forward in a positive direction. When this doesn’t happen we can become like “those who are perishing” mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 who “refused to love the truth and so be saved.” Of these St. Paul writes:

For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion, leading them to believe what is false.

This can apply not only to another religion like the Jehovah’s Witnesses but we ourselves if we are not careful. It isn’t easy to check ourselves because we often believe our opinions and our views are fine. When someone comes along and tries to tell us otherwise we are more likely to quarrel with them and defend ourselves instead of investigate as to whether or not what they raise is true.

So when a religious movement as a whole is known for being untruthful or less than fully honest, they shouldn’t be surprised if it causes less than favorable comments to be made about such a religion and those who adhere to it. My comment was that these kind of comments aren’t helpful, but don’t take what I said to mean that they don’t necessarily apply.

 

[WilT]

The Jehovah Witness really work hard to get others into there faith. Just the other day, they set up a makeshift stand with handouts and brochures and I saw I aprox. 1 family every 15 minutes walking up to them, as a family, and reading their brochures. I thought for a moment that that is perhaps what we must also do. Reach out to those looking for answers .

 

[DelsonJacobs]

The Jehovah Witness really work hard to get others into there faith. Just the other day, they set up a makeshift stand with handouts and brochures and I saw I aprox. 1 family every 15 minutes walking up to them, as a family, and reading their brochures. I thought for a moment that that is perhaps what we must also do. Reach out to those looking for answers .

While we can all do more as Catholics to reach out to others in various ways, there is a hidden facet to the preaching work done by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Giving credit where it is due, the Jehovah’s Witnesses do indeed work hard to spread their message. Catholics never reject that which is genuinely good in others, and this is definitely a marvelous trait of the JW movement.

Speaking from the vantage point of having been among the Witnesses for years and preaching as one of them, their work doesn’t flow from a motive of neighborly interest in others alone. There is something else. While Witnesses do indeed want to share their religious faith with others, they also have no choice if they are to remain members of their group.

Even if they do not have the gift for speech and regardless of those who are so frightened of speaking in public that it induces physical sickness, all Jehovah’s Witnesses are required to publicly preach their faith and send in a report about hours spent, brochures placed, etc. each and every month. Failure to do so can mean the loss of privileges including eventual excommunication if the person adamantly refuses to engage in the activity. One cannot be a Jehovah’s Witness if they do not engage in this work.

Also the Witnesses engage in the work because they believe and teach that they are fulfilling prophecy about the last days. Since the 1870s Jehovah’s Witnesses have been convinced that the present generation will be the last and that they are required to attempt to convert this generation or at least ‘put them on notice’ that we will likely face destruction at the hands of God for rejecting their message.

Witnesses believe they will be held responsible or “blood-guilty” by Jehovah should they fail to preach adequately enough. God will surely destroy us for not joining their religion, but He will require less-than-adequate JWs to pay for failing to reach us with their own lives!

Not only do they feel they need to warn you, they are out doing this work because they believe God is demanding enough to actually destroy them along with all unbelievers if they do not. As 1 Corinthians 12:29 states:

All aren’t apostles, are they? All aren’t prophets, are they? All aren’t teachers, are they?

The Witnesses demand that all be teachers and public preachers under penalty of excommunication with a warning that God will get them if they don’t. While I don’t question the sincerity of those who preach, remember I was one of them. And I recall how often they used the Scripture texts below to remind us how Jehovah will kill us at Armageddon if we failed to preach like the Governing Body demanded:

If I declare that the wicked will die but you don’t warn them, if you say nothing to warn them from their wicked ways so that they might live, they will die because of their guilt, but I will hold you accountable for their deaths.–Ezekiel 3:18.

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.–Hebrew 10:31.

I will never forget those times we were made to feel we weren’t doing enough in the preaching work and the dread and fear that would come upon us because the Governing Body would tell us God would destroy us if we didn’t improve. I wouldn’t want to see this become part of the Catholic experience.

 

[WilT]

As I went to Church I came across a group of JV leaving a home readying to evangelize the Latinos. I walked past them but I wasn’t able to say anything. I’m a poor evangelizer I’m afraid.

 

[seanman611]

Yes, DJ perhaps you are correct in saying that is sounds harsh. If I new how to reword it I would. Back when Christianity started we started out as a cult then developed into what we are now a full fledge religion.

The definition of “cult” that you are applying to the first century church is quite a bit different than the way many of us use the term when referring to the WTS. The term “cult” can be made pretty broad and encompass many groups. When many of us use the word when referring to the WTS, we are being much more narrow.

I have no real problem with people debating over just how dangerous of a “cult” the WTS is or is not. My problem is when people try to tell those of us who grew up in it and were raised in it, that they are not a cult, but just an “odd” take on Christianity. The thousands who have died for not taking blood transfusions (many thousands of whom are children), would probably beg to differ if they could. If one didn’t grow up in the religion, I just can’t take their comments on whether or not they are a “cult” seriously. Those of us who grew up in the WTS or were members in it know the truth about this group.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

“Cult” is somewhat of a relative term. While the most extreme groups (i.e., the Branch Davidians, Jonestown, etc.) are generally accepted by all to “qualify” as a cult, it is still in the eye of the beholder to label a religious movement as such. It can also be hard to identify the cult if we are too close to it or its members. To illustrate:

• Members of cults are well-known for adamantly denying they are in a cult.
• Cult mentality teaches cult members that they are orthodox in thinking and the rest of the world is not.
• Some of us have limited exposure to high-control groups that get labeled as a cult.
• Those in genuine cults will be told by others that they are in a cult–because they are.

A rule of thumb? A “cult” is something outsiders call a group, not something a group sets out to be.

There is no set criteria for what constitutes a “cult.” The reason for them being so hard to define is that being “beyond the norm” entails being something that goes beyond what most people would imagine. Cults are well-known for teaching and acting out in ways people don’t expect, and it is for that reason you can’t make the definition solid. So people aren’t always going to agree or even believe when someone tries to use the word to define a religious movement.

So are Jehovah’s Witnesses a cult? That depends on your point of view. If you are one of Jehovah’s Witnesses or are impressed with their kindness and way of life, then likely you won’t agree.

But as others have pointed out, their practices have unnecessarily cost lives. They have claimed that they are God’s only channel for truth while setting many dates for the end of the world, unapologetically excommunicating members who disagreed with them along the way, only to end up abandoning these dates themselves. They also mark all of us as Satanic worshippers because we refuse to convert to their religion and direction. You might feel this makes up a cult, and some may not.

One last thing to consider, even if a person is a member of a group that can genuinely been called a cult, this doesn’t make the individual member of that group “evil” or necessarily “dangerous.” Cult members are just mislead, and any danger can be minimized by avoiding them as far as it depends on us. Many of their adherents will wake up and leave, but many stay under the spell until death. Regardless, the mislead deserve no unfair treatment or made the subjects of hate by others. We can only try and help when those adherents are ready to receive that help for themselves.

But from my experience with the JWs, I can honestly say this: if a lot of people are saying you are in a cult then it couldn’t hurt to be open to the possibility that you just might be. Again, if you are truly in a cult chances are you are in denial about it.

 

[feilung888]

I believe this is true. I’m not Latino, but I live in a predominantly Latino area. Almost everyday, when I drive to work, I see small groups of them of 2 or more walking down the street. I can tell they are JWs, because they are well dressed with Bibles in their hand. I’ve also had a good amount of JWs knock on my door and they are always Latinos, from the young to the old. This is a pretty new trend, because I’ve always thought that Latinos are mostly if not always, Catholic. But in recent years, I’ve met Latinos that are Protestants. I know one Latino guy who started his own Protestant Church, and speaks out against the Catholic Church. I’ve done some research and in Mexico, a lot of the people there are getting into the occult, mixing Catholicism with witchcraft, praying to an entity called Saint Death. According to Michael Voris, his research team reports that more Latinos are leaving the Church faster than any other ethnic group. I really don’t know what’s happening here, but with the miracle of the Lady of Guadalupe, this shouldn’t be happening. Satan must be working extra hard in these end times.

 

[WilT]

I’ve been mixed in with the Latino group and I’ve seen some of the Latino exodus as well. I believe many of those leaving are leaving because they don’t know their faith well and are quick to believe anything the JW’s say. The second group that leave, leave because the protestant churches offer fellowship and build close friendships with one another and their pastors. There is a sense of fellowship and care there.

 

[feilung888]

I agree that Protestant churches offer a warmer, fuzzy feelings, relationships in their churches. I was Protestant for 20+ years, but if you leave the church that Christ started for a man made church, just because of having more closer relationships with other people, than that is wrong, and do I dare say Satanic. The devil comes to us as an angel of light and tempts us away from truth and leads us astray. Christ wants you to have a more strong relationship with Him, through His church and sacraments. It’s not all about earthly relationships, but having the true relationship with Christ. JWs and Mormons have a very close relationship with one another, therefore, should we leave Catholicism to join them? I’m not saying that Protestants are bad people, but I do believe they are not in the church that Christ intended for all Christians to belong in. We can build strong relationships with others within the Catholic Church, though it does take more effort, but it’s an effort worth taking. This fragmentation that Christianity has right now since the 1500s is a very bad thing and evil, all Christians should be one body, like Christ intended, in the one church that Christ started. This goes for Latinos and every ethnic group throughout all the earth. One of Christ’s last prayers is that we should all be perfectly one so the world will believe, but we are not one, so the world doesn’t believe. This is the devil’s goal, and he has succeeded.

 

[WilT]

I agree that Protestant churches offer a warmer, fuzzy feelings, relationships in their churches. I was Protestant for 20+ years, but if you leave the church that Christ started for a man made church, just because of having more closer relationships with other people, than that is wrong… It’s not all about earthly relationships, but having the true relationship with Christ. .

So true. I once read, I believe it was in St. John Bosco’s book, a dream he had in which many people were heading towards heaven on a narrow path. Many people, in his dream, would be distracted off the path when they came across roses or some other objects. They fell off the tract and would never find their way back. It is sort of like that. People would leave the Church of Christ and the path to Heaven for something lesser or in this case of Bosco’s dream, a distracter.
Mega Church’s offer entertainment through music, big bands, and fellowship. All are good things in themselves but they are missing the essential part which is the Holy Mass which Christ gave to His Church.

 

[jesuspsr]

So true. I once read, I believe it was in St. John Bosco’s book, a dream he had in which many people were heading towards heaven on a narrow path. Many people, in his dream, would be distracted off the path when they came across roses or some other objects. They fell off the tract and would never find their way back. It is sort of like that. People would leave the Church of Christ and the path to Heaven for something lesser or in this case of Bosco’s dream, a distracter.
Mega Church’s offer entertainment through music, big bands, and fellowship. All are good things in themselves but they are missing the essential part which is the Holy Mass which Christ gave to His Church.

Cool, so true:thumbsup: