The Jew, the Gestapo & Moral Reservation

[Damascus]

I gotcha now rr1213.

Thank the lord Scottgun stepped in here. This senario would be made under duress of course.
Nevertheless, even if we did not have scottguns answer here we could gamble on my thoughts of seeking out confession at once either way.

Is this the best you can do to pick apart the Catholic Church?

(You bolded it so I will too)

 

[rr1213]

I gotcha now rr1213.

Thank the lord Scottgun stepped in here. This senario would be made under duress of course.
Nevertheless, even if we did not have scottguns answer here we could gamble on my thoughts of seeking out confession at once either way.

Is this the best you can do to pick apart the Catholic Church?

(You bolded it so I will too)

Look Damascus, not one of your posts in this thread has yet addressed the issue of “mental reservation” which, if you will note, is the topic of the thread and of the OP. Please read the link to the Catholic Encyclopedia article and you will see what I am talking about. Please save your comments about my “pick[ing] apart the Catholic Church” (your words, not mine) until you have responded to the issue of mental reservation. Frankly, Scottgun is the only poster who has *directly *responded to the question of the OP, although some of the other folks have given it a fair shot.

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

You are forgetting that you are the one providing Ann with food and water.

You die, she dies.

In the posited scenerio, the situation has degenerated so badly, I really doubt if the Gestapo is going to buy any lie–other than one I’m going to say to put the Gestapo creep just off guard enough to set him up. IF I was providing the Frank family w/ haven, I would have in place “worse case” planning–including an escape route and a Undergroud contact of where to flee to.

 

[Steadfast_love]

I watched a show a few months ago about some Poles and the Jews they hid in their hay piles. When the SS came to collect them the Poles lied to protect them thus putting their own family at risk. The SS searched the hay piles anyway but gave up before finding the Jews. So it is not true that you should automaticaly spill the beans as soon as the going get’s rough.

 

[Damascus]

In this thread…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=117046&page=2

…we discussed whether lying is ever acceptable, even to save Ann Frank who is hiding from the Gestapo in your attic. I think we have gone as far as we can in that thread. Some say that lying is never right–ever–and that it is always a sin to lie, even to save Frank. Others take the view that the higher value is love and love covers a multitude of sins so, in this very rare case, lying would be appropriate.

Okay. So far no question.

I would like to shift the discussion to the concept of “mental reservation”, which we touched on in the previous thread. Let’s not argue whether “lying” is right or wrong in this context but, rather, how might mental reservation be used to avoid lying. I’ll be candid here…I see little difference, if any, between “lying” and “mental reservation” but I’d like to see what others think.

Lying or mental reservation is not going to send me to hell one way or the other here. I can confess and frankly, I am not going to be guilty of something I must make a firm purpose of commitment to correct now will I??

The Catholic Church is not and has never sent a soul to hell for saving human life by lying. Good God man what are you smoking?

 

[Neo_Canaan]

a lie is still a lie, regardless

 

[rr1213]

Lying or mental reservation is not going to send me to hell one way or the other here. I can confess and frankly, I am not going to be guilty of something I must make a firm purpose of commitment to correct now will I??

The Catholic Church is not and has never sent a soul to hell for saving human life by lying. Good God man what are you smoking?

I think I am not doing a good job of communicating. If I am correct here, both you and I would lie to save Ann Frank and deal with the consequences of that lie, if any, later.

I am convinced from the discussion in the previous thread that the Catholic Church teaches that lying is never right…that it is always sinful. I would rely on the various CCC sections cited by advocates of that position in the other thread.

Nonetheless, the Catholic Church also teaches that there is a rhetorical device known as “mental reservation” that allows you to deceive someone in matters of grave importance and that use of “mental reservation” does not constitute a lie. So, according to the Church, if you properly use “mental reservation” you are not lying and, thus, not committing sin (venial or otherwise). I have reviewed the article at Catholic Encyclopedia (and other articles) as to the concept of “mental reservation” and, while certainly convienent in certain instances, I’d by lying (pun intended) if I thought that the concept is convincing. From what I’ve read, it seems to me that what the Church calls a permissible “mental reservation” is nothing more than simply a “lie” by another name. That’s the issue I’d like to discuss in this thread if possible.

 

[Damascus]

I think I am not doing a good job of communicating. If I am correct here, both you and I would lie to save Ann Frank and deal with the consequences of that lie, if any, later.

I am convinced from the discussion in the previous thread that the Catholic Church teaches that lying is never right…that it is always sinful. I would rely on the various CCC sections cited by advocates of that position in the other thread.

Nonetheless, the Catholic Church also teaches that there is a rhetorical device known as “mental reservation” that allows you to deceive someone in matters of grave importance and that use of “mental reservation” does not constitute a lie. So, according to the Church, if you properly use “mental reservation” you are not lying and, thus, not committing sin (venial or otherwise). I have reviewed the article at Catholic Encyclopedia (and other articles) as to the concept of “mental reservation” and, while certainly convienent in certain instances, I’d by lying (pun intended) if I thought that the concept is convincing. From what I’ve read, it seems to me that what the Church calls a permissible “mental reservation” is nothing more than simply a “lie” by another name. That’s the issue I’d like to discuss in this thread if possible.

Okay. Since I am unaware of this thread that prompted this new thread you must forgive me that I did not get a chance to review it.

I hardly think your analogy of the mental reservation being “convienient” as honest.
There is absolutely nothing “convienient” about your senario you paint here lets be honest!
Being a Christian is hardly convienient lets face facts.
But as a Protestant, I hardly think you should find this to be a loophole of sorts.
Did Jesus not allow the breaking of the Sabbath to save a life?
Are you unaware of the value that the Catholic Church places on life?
ITs all about love of thy neighbor.
Not the letter of the law on lies.
COme on now.

 

[Damascus]

a lie is still a lie, regardless

Fantastic. No kidding.

I’ll gamble on that one my friend. IF I have to spend more time in Purgatory for it fine.
I hardly think you will find ANYONE here that will say I will be hellbound for lying or “mental reservation” ing this one.

IF anyone can prove that I would be damned for doing so speak now.

Or tomorrow since I have to reliquish the computer to my other half now.

My spouse thinks this is too funny to respond to. And frankly, I must agree THIS time.

 

[rr1213]

Okay. Since I am unaware of this thread that prompted this new thread you must forgive me that I did not get a chance to review it.

I hardly think your analogy of the mental reservation being “convienient” as honest.
There is absolutely nothing “convienient” about your senario you paint here lets be honest!
Being a Christian is hardly convienient lets face facts.
But as a Protestant, I hardly think you should find this to be a loophole of sorts.
Did Jesus not allow the breaking of the Sabbath to save a life?
Are you unaware of the value that the Catholic Church places on life?
ITs all about love of thy neighbor.
Not the letter of the law on lies.
COme on now.

I’m afraid that we are still not communicating. You’re arguing that love for your neighbor is the greatest good and, if you have to lie to save the life of your neighbor, this is acceptable. ***I agree. *** You are preaching to the choir.

What I am trying to discuss to little avail is the Catholic teaching of “mental reservation” that states that deception under certain circumstances does not constitute a lie. Read this link and you will see what I am talking about:

newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm

To my eyes, the concept of “mental reservation” is not convincing because it looks to me to be nothing more than a “lie” tied up in pretty wrapping. Yet, for some reason, I can’t seem to get people focused on that question.

 

[Damascus]

I’m afraid that we are still not communicating. You’re arguing that love for your neighbor is the greatest good and, if you have to lie to save the life of your neighbor, this is acceptable. ***I agree. *** You are preaching to the choir.

What I am trying to discuss to little avail is the Catholic teaching of “mental reservation” that states that deception under certain circumstances does not constitute a lie. Read this link and you will see what I am talking about:

newadvent.org/cathen/10195b.htm

To my eyes, the concept of “mental reservation” is not convincing because it looks to me to be nothing more than a “lie” tied up in pretty wrapping. Yet, for some reason, I can’t seem to get people focused on that question.

Here is a hint:

The use of such a “reservation” is so far and few between, (like your senario) there is little likelihood of it ever coming into play.

In this case you agree with me. Now, if its a mental reservation - guess what- YOU AGREE with mental reservations.
You just call it a lie.
The outcome is the same.
One can not ABUSE mental reservation anytime they wish.
IT must be for a grave and improbable senario-
LIKE YOURS.
Get it?

 

[Damascus]

Remember when Jesus was asked if the woman should be stoned?
They wanted a YES or a NO answer.
He did not give a Yes or a No answer did he?
So did Jesus use mental reservation?
Think about it.
He posed another question.
He evaded the yes or no.
I dare anyone to say he lied.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[rr1213]

Are you having a bad day or something?

 

[Damascus]

Are you having a bad day or something?

The only thing I wish here was that whoever these purported Catholics were that gave you this understanding that lying was NO way in any shape or form acceptable (mental reservation or otherwise)
I could have piped up.
Where are they now?
I dont see these Catholics piping up now do you?
Because they wont.
I for one would like to see one do it.
It gets me upset when Protestants get the impression that Catholics are wrapped up in the letter of the law and cant see beyond it into Gods providence.Wouldnt you be mad if I started a thread based on baloney other Protestants fed me?

 

[rr1213]

The Catholic Encyclopedia gives an example of “wide mental reservation” which it states does not constitute a “lie”. The example is responding to a question as to whether somebody is “at home”. So, for example… … I go to Damascus’ house and ask his butler “is Damascus home?” The butler, knowing that I am a disagreeable fellow and that Damascus does not wish to talk to me, uses the device of “mental reservation” and says to me: “Sorry sir, Damascus is not home”. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, this would not be a “lie” if the butler adds silently in his mind “for you”. According to the Church, this would be acceptable and would not constitute a “lie”. (Now, the example is not a grave matter, but it is the example used by the Encyclopedia).

Now, to my mind, the butler is a liar because he knows very well that Damascus is home and, yet, says directly to me, that he “is not home.” This is telling a falsehood ("he is not home when, in fact, he is certainly home) with the intent of deceiving the the person to whom the falsehood is told.

Catholic Encyclopedia Excerpt:

“Such expressions as “He is not at home” were called equivocations, or amphibologies, and when there was good reason for using them their lawfulness was admitted by all. If the person inquired for was really at home, but did not wish to see the visitor, the meaning of the phrase “He is not at home” was restricted by the mind of the speaker to this sense, “He is not at home for you, or to see you.” Hence equivocations and amphibologies came to be called mental restrictions or reservations. It was commonly admitted that an equivocal expression need not necessarily be used when the words of the speaker receive a special meaning from the circumstances in which he is placed, or from the position which he holds. Thus, if a confessor is asked about sins made known to him in confession, he should answer “I do not know,” and such words as those when used by a priest mean “I do not know apart from confession,” or “I do not know as man,” or “I have no knowledge of the matter which I can communicate.” All Catholic writers were, and are, agreed that when there is good reason, such expressions as the above may be made use of, and that they are not lies.”

 

[rr1213]

The only thing I wish here was that whoever these purported Catholics were that gave you this understanding that lying was NO way in any shape or form acceptable (mental reservation or otherwise)
I could have piped up.
Where are they now?
I dont see these Catholics piping up now do you?
Because they wont.
I for one would like to see one do it.
It gets me upset when Protestants get the impression that Catholics are wrapped up in the letter of the law and cant see beyond it into Gods providence.Wouldnt you be mad if I started a thread based on baloney other Protestants fed me?

I’m not making this stuff up! Take a look at this thread and you’ll read the various answers provided by the posters therein.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=117046&page=2

 

[Damascus]

The Catholic Encyclopedia gives an example of “wide mental reservation” which it states does not constitute a “lie”. The example is responding to a question as to whether somebody is “at home”. So, for example… … I go to Damascus’ house and ask his butler “is Damascus home?” The butler, knowing that I am a disagreeable fellow and that Damascus does not wish to talk to me, uses the device of “mental reservation” and says to me: “Sorry sir, Damascus is not home”. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, this would not be a “lie” if the butler adds silently in his mind “for you”. According to the Church, this would be acceptable and would not constitute a “lie”. (Now, the example is not a grave matter, but it is the example used by the Encyclopedia).

Now, to my mind, the butler is a liar because he knows very well that Damascus is home and, yet, says directly to me, that he “is not home.” This is telling a falsehood ("he is not home when, in fact, he is certainly home) with the intent of deceiving the the person to whom the falsehood is told.

Catholic Encyclopedia Excerpt:

“Such expressions as “He is not at home” were called equivocations, or amphibologies, and when there was good reason for using them their lawfulness was admitted by all. If the person inquired for was really at home, but did not wish to see the visitor, the meaning of the phrase “He is not at home” was restricted by the mind of the speaker to this sense, “He is not at home for you, or to see you.” Hence equivocations and amphibologies came to be called mental restrictions or reservations. It was commonly admitted that an equivocal expression need not necessarily be used when the words of the speaker receive a special meaning from the circumstances in which he is placed, or from the position which he holds. Thus, if a confessor is asked about sins made known to him in confession, he should answer “I do not know,” and such words as those when used by a priest mean “I do not know apart from confession,” or “I do not know as man,” or “I have no knowledge of the matter which I can communicate.” All Catholic writers were, and are, agreed that when there is good reason, such expressions as the above may be made use of, and that they are not lies.”

I knew I should have fired that butler. The butler is always the killer anyway in the movies, just like now I guess!

I know what you are saying and I do see your point and I will say in the butler analogy he is only lying to save his job because you know I will fire his sorry (*& if he tells anyone like you I am home
Kidding- You are always welcome.
But, then its not the butler telling a lie its really me forcing him to lie.
He is only doing what a guy does if he steals bread to eat.
Not a crime.
But, I am a liar to myself if I think this use of mental reservation is acceptable.
I DONT CARE WHAT THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA SAYS
I will only use it in a dire circumstance.
THERE. YOU have it.
Now fellow Catholics— blast away!
I have a conscience and my conscience will not allow this type of Baloney.
ITs not a dire circumstance. Its wrong.
If you are on the path you must not go there.
Period.
I am sorry OP, I was afraid you would put it out there like that, but I am glad you did.
I dont care what others here do in their lives.
I must worry about my soul.
And this analogy will not help a thing to get where I want to go.
Thanks for the thread OP.
Bless you for your patience and understanding.
But do you see what I am saying? Wrong is wrong. I dont need a encyclopedia to answer to in the end.

 

[rr1213]

But do you see what I am saying? Wrong is wrong. I dont need a encyclopedia to answer to in the end.

Agreed. I doubt that Jesus will ask us questions from the Catholic Encycopedia, or any other Encyclopedia for that matter. We’ve both read Scripture and we know the sort of questions that he will ask… Let’s pray that when it’s all said and done He will say to us “well done good and faithful servants”. If that’s what we hear, nothing else much matters does it?

 

[Damascus]

I’m not making this stuff up! Take a look at this thread and you’ll read the various answers provided by the posters therein.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=117046&page=2

That is one weird thread. I will not single out the posters that are making me scratch my head on this one, but even one credible one kinda sugar coated this one.

WOW.

I think this thread should be re-opened with a more reasonable premise, yet one that entails saving a life.

You are right to be troubled by that prior thread. I sure am.

 

[Damascus]

Agreed. I doubt that Jesus will ask us questions from the Catholic Encycopedia, or any other Encyclopedia for that matter. We’ve both read Scripture and we know the sort of questions that he will ask… Let’s pray that when it’s all said and done He will say to us “well done good and faithful servants”. If that’s what we hear, nothing else much matters does it?

RR1213-

I have some ideas for a new thread. Lets talk tomorrow. This needs to be done.