The Jew, the Gestapo & Moral Reservation

[Steadfast_love]

I think this thread should be re-opened with a more reasonable premise, yet one that entails saving a life.

Wouldn’t it be better to leave wide mental reservation out of it? Wide mental reservation only keeps us from agonizing over the foibles of human language. It allows us to address the meaning without getting confused by the wording.

Wide mental reservation allows us to truthfully engage in conversations like these:

Did you eat yet?
No thanks, I’ve got dinner plans.

What are you doing this weekend?
Oh darling! I thought you’d never ask!

WOULD YOU LIKE A FREE HAWAIIAN VACATION!?!?
No thank you, I’m not interested in buying a timeshare, and stop shouting!

 

[Damascus]

Wouldn’t it be better to leave wide mental reservation out of it? Wide mental reservation only keeps us from agonizing over the foibles of human language. It allows us to address the meaning without getting confused by the wording.

Wide mental reservation allows us to truthfully engage in conversations like these:

Did you eat yet?
No thanks, I’ve got dinner plans.

What are you doing this weekend?
Oh darling! I thought you’d never ask!

WOULD YOU LIKE A FREE HAWAIIAN VACATION!?!?
No thank you, I’m not interested in buying a timeshare, and stop shouting!

I really think this says it all.

except, I can think of some senarios that would pose a real problem for some here (not naming any denominations now)
Some things are simple.
We make them complex.

 

[Zooey]

That is one weird thread. I will not single out the posters that are making me scratch my head on this one, but even one credible one kinda sugar coated this one.

WOW.

I think this thread should be re-opened with a more reasonable premise, yet one that entails saving a life.

You are right to be troubled by that prior thread. I sure am.

I was totally shocked by the people who seemed to think that lying to save someone’s life was still wrong…:nope: I was hoping that this one might go a little less deep into what felt to me like the Twilight Zone.
I mean, sure, I would lie. If I had a gun, I’d shoot the Gestapo to save Anne Frank.
Weird is the right word for it…

 

[Neo_Canaan]

He pushes through your door, submachine at his side. He looks you square in the face and says: “Don’t play with me. If you value your sorry life, you will answer me truthfully. Yes or No? Is Ann Frank in your attic. Answer me ‘yes’ or ‘no’ or I’ll kill you on the spot.”

It should’ve been said with a German accent.

 

[Damascus]

It should’ve been said with a German accent.

And a monocle in hand, at the ready like in Hogans Heros.

And a march of soldiers feet outside the place shouting stuff.

And a lot of detail about sweat pouring of brows etc.

I think It just wasnt hollywoody enough or compelling without visual and audio aids.

 

[rr1213]

Sorry, I had only a single year of German and that was very many years ago…afraid I can no longer do that accent in a convincing fashion.

 

[Neo_Canaan]

Sorry, I had only a single year of German and that was very many years ago…afraid I can no longer do that accent in a convincing fashion.

Das ist zo, ja?

 

[Damascus]

Sorry, I had only a single year of German and that was very many years ago…afraid I can no longer do that accent in a convincing fashion.

rr1213-

I have an idea. Why dont we make the situation more interesting.

A pregnant teenage unmarried 16 year old girl is digging through your garbage can looking for food because she is hungry and homeless. Her parents kicked her out.

What do you do?

 

[Neo_Canaan]

rr1213-

I have an idea. Why dont we make the situation more interesting.

A pregnant teenage unmarried 16 year old girl is digging through your garbage can looking for food because she is hungry and homeless. Her parents kicked her out.

What do you do?

Take her in, and help her, give her plenty to eat. and share your home with her, and help raise her baby, give them both a home and show them you love and care for them.

 

[Damascus]

Take her in, and help her, give her plenty to eat. and share your home with her, and help raise her baby, give them both a home and show them you love and care for them.

She is a minor. You are harboring a “runaway” and could be held accountable by law as such.

Maybe she has severe health issues and likewise the baby from her inadequate diet.

How does she get the medical treatment she needs???

The police are looking for her and the milk containers have her photo on it.

Your neighbors have seen her in the area.

What do you do now?

 

[valient_Lucy]

In this thread…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=117046&page=2

…we discussed whether lying is ever acceptable, even to save Ann Frank who is hiding from the Gestapo in your attic. I think we have gone as far as we can in that thread. Some say that lying is never right–ever–and that it is always a sin to lie, even to save Frank. Others take the view that the higher value is love and love covers a multitude of sins so, in this very rare case, lying would be appropriate.

I would like to shift the discussion to the concept of “mental reservation”, which we touched on in the previous thread. Let’s not argue whether “lying” is right or wrong in this context but, rather, how might mental reservation be used to avoid lying. I’ll be candid here…I see little difference, if any, between “lying” and “mental reservation” but I’d like to see what others think.

So, here’s the scenario: The Jew, Ann Frank, is hiding in your attic from the Nazis. A Gestapo officer has intelligence indicating that she probably is in your attic. He pushes through your door, submachine at his side. He looks you square in the face and says: “Don’t play with me. If you value your sorry life, you will answer me truthfully. Yes or No? Is Ann Frank in your attic. Answer me ‘yes’ or ‘no’ or I’ll kill you on the spot.”

So, as a faithful Catholic, you will not lie. If you give an answer other than “yes’ or 'no” you will die. You wish to save Ms. Frank. How do you say "no’ to the Gestapo Officer and, through the device of “mental reservation”, avoid sinning by lying? (And, please, none of the “he’s going to kill me anyway” stuff…let’s focus on whether “mental reservation” is an available tool here or not).

I’m not sure what “mental reservation” means, but to me, it sounds like simply another word for “lying.” I think some of this is semantics. Being silent or giving “misleading answers” has the same intent as a lie, which is to decieve.
As I stated on another forum, I think any answer other than, “Yes, I am hiding Anne Frank and I’ll show you where she is,” is a lie.

However, in the first chapter of Exodus, Egyptian midwives disobeyed Pharoah’s commandment to kill all Hebrew boys, and then they lied about it to cover it up. God blessed them for their actions. What are we to make of this story? Or what about the story of Rahab, who hid the Jewish spies and lied about their wherabouts, and God also spared her life? What are we to make of these stories?

 

[Neo_Canaan]

She is a minor. You are harboring a “runaway” and could be held accountable by law as such.

Maybe she has severe health issues and likewise the baby from her inadequate diet.

How does she get the medical treatment she needs???

The police are looking for her and the milk containers have her photo on it.

Your neighbors have seen her in the area.

What do you do now?

How could she be a runaway if her folks kicked her out? Anyhow there’s two places that can help her out–St. Annes which offers the best medical treatment for girls like her and Convent House.She could if she wants to, put the baby up for adoption. We’d go incognito and I’d smuggle her to any of those out of state places.

 

[Lion]

WOW!
Okay… I’ve not heard anything about God being a part of our lives in these scenarios. I admit I have only scanned the last 30 or so posts. In all of these scenarios a decision was made prior to “the lie”. I would hope that most people would take at least a moment to pause before deciding “do I let Anne in? or do I deny them a safeplace?” That moment of pause / reflection could, would, should be a prayer to God for direction. It is wonderful to discuss these philosophical situations, but in the end it is God’s Will that will prevail. God has turned numerous “bad” situations to “good”.
I personally would not hesitate to help Anne and her family because in the end (at least in my mind) to give up the family in order to save my own life (selfishness) would would be a greater sin, than the lie to save their lives.
I know the scenario has changed, but since I am new here, I felt I had to comment on the original thread.
Peace of Christ to you all

 

[criffton]

Take a page from Obi-Wan

There are no Jew here (wave hand)
There will never be any Jews here (wave hand)
You will leave and never come back (wave hand)
It is time for you to go (wave hand)

They leave never to return

Seriously though, it would be moral to lie, nothing else then common sense, the gritty part is why it would be acceptable to lie, and that is what is being debated

Also, a quick prayer of Help Me God would also help, but that is why it is important to keep a strong relationship with God, so in a case like that one could follow what God’s will is

 

[Lion]

Okay, so we are talking about lying, in the original scenario Anne Frank is asking me to hide her and her family… I make a decision… Giving the family up to save my own skin (selfishness) is probably a greater sin than lying to save their lives.
I’m not God and I do not know how he will judge, but that is how i would recact; i would lie to save them

 

[Neo_Canaan]

Okay, so we are talking about lying, in the original scenario Anne Frank is asking me to hide her and her family… I make a decision… Giving the family up to save my own skin (selfishness) is probably a greater sin than lying to save their lives.
I’m not God and I do not know how he will judge, but that is how i would recact; i would lie to save them

Not me. I’d scare those Krauts out with a gun (unloaded, but they don’t have to know that). I refuse to lie.

 

[Denise_Shae]

Not me. I’d scare those Krauts out with a gun (unloaded, but they don’t have to know that). I refuse to lie.

I’m not trying to be sarcastic, here, but wouldn’t that be considered deception? And isn’t deceptions a form of lying?

An FYI: If you would point a gun at those “Krauts”, it better be loaded, and you’d better be prepared to use it.
You’d at least get in one good shot before they kill you.

Again, I’m not being sarcastic; just realistic.
They didn’t scare easily, and they gladly sacrificed thier lives for the Nazi cause.

You might be interested in reading a couple books on “Nazi Psychology”.
It’s both interesting and very scary.

God Bless!

 

[Steadfast_love]

Okay, so we are talking about lying, in the original scenario Anne Frank is asking me to hide her and her family… I make a decision… Giving the family up to save my own skin (selfishness) is probably a greater sin than lying to save their lives.
I’m not God and I do not know how he will judge, but that is how i would recact; i would lie to save them

We’ve been hammering that out on another thread. According to the CCC A lie is always sinful but not every untruth is a lie. The licit options for untruth are:

**+Wide mental reservation: ** True meaning and untrue wording. “I’m so hungry I could eat an horse” is technically untrue --no one can eat an entire horse! But the essential meaning,“I am very hungry,” is true and easily understood. Thus it is wide mental reservation and not a lie.

+Fiction: An untruth that does not “lead people into error” is not a lie by definition. Thus it is licit to do things like storytelling, practical jokes, surprise birthday parties and “faking” in team sports. So long as it does not “lead people into error” it is fiction and not a lie.

+Silence and discrete language: An untruth that deceives people who do not have a “right to know” is not a lie by definition. Thus it is not a lie keep your medicine drawer closed, hide Jews in the Vatican and appoint Chinese bishops sub rosa. So long as it protects the truth from people who do not have a right to know, silence and discrete language is not a lie.

All other untruths are lies. Every lie is always a sin.

Narrow mental reservation is a style of untruth. It makes a lie more sinful, but isn’t sinful in and of itself. Narrow mental reservation is where a complete, true statement is thought but unspoken.
For example:
This apple is tremendously poisonous. >> This apple is tremendous.
I am not unarmed. >> I am unarmed
As soon as you turn your back, I’m going to slit your throat >> (silence)
Pi is 3.1415926535897932384… >> Pi is 3

It’s not explicitly stated, but I suspect that if it’s used wrong, Narrow mental reservation gets you double time and a half in purgatory since it compounds a lie with legalism and hypocrisy. On the other hand, our Lord uses Narrow mental reservation every time he said “Hi my name is Jesus the Messiah.” so it is possible to leave things unsaid without sinning. The point is that Narrow mental reservation is a style of untruth. You still have to educate your conscience, use your conscience to determine which untruths are lies and avoid lying.

 

[ronald44481]

If Anne Frank Was In My Attic I Would
Go To A Mental Hospital And Have Myself
Committed. I Was Taught That The Dead Do Not
Return But Anne Frank Who Never Exsisted
That Would Be Hard To Deal With Since She
Was The Product Of Imagination