The Jewish people in Egypt as slaves

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The main candidates for the biblical Mount Sinai:

Gebel Musa (South Sinai)
Gebel Katarina (South Sinai)
Gebel Serbal (South Sinai)
Gebel Sin Bishr (West-Central Sinai)
Gebel Helal (North Sinai)
Gebel Hashem el-Tarif (Northeast Sinai)
Har Karkom, aka Jebel 'Ideid (Southwest Negev)
Jebel al-Madhbah (Jordan)
Mount Seir (Jordan)
Jebel Biggir and Jebel Ertowa (Jordan)
Jabal al-Nour (Saudi Arabia)
Hala’l-Badr (Saudi Arabia)
Jabal al-Lawz (Saudi Arabia)
 
Hi,

There wasnt much evidence left of Pharoah and his army, after God gave them an instant thorough full submersion baptism either.
Sean 58;)
 
Why do they question where it is today- near St. Catherine’s Monastery in the Sinai?

The further we get away from the event, the more outlandish the theories.

No one seriously thought that Shakespeare wasn’t the author of “his” plays until over 200 years after his death.
 
Why do they question where it is today- near St. Catherine’s Monastery in the Sinai?

The further we get away from the event, the more outlandish the theories.

No one seriously thought that Shakespeare wasn’t the author of “his” plays until over 200 years after his death.
They question it because… they don’t know where it is? 🤷 It’s not like they knew where it is, to begin with.
 
Why do they question where it is today- near St. Catherine’s Monastery in the Sinai?

The further we get away from the event, the more outlandish the theories.

No one seriously thought that Shakespeare wasn’t the author of “his” plays until over 200 years after his death.
The same way the concept of “Kingdom of God” was unambiguous at its time and people question today what Jesus truly meant by that… 😛
 
Why do they question where it is today- near St. Catherine’s Monastery in the Sinai?

The further we get away from the event, the more outlandish the theories.

No one seriously thought that Shakespeare wasn’t the author of “his” plays until over 200 years after his death.
There were at least five different early Christian monastic communities and churches in southern Sinai, at Gebel Musa (2,285 m / 7,435 ft) and Gebel Katherina (the highest mountain in the Sinai peninsula; 2,642 m / 8,668 ft), Gebel Serbal (2,070 m / 6,791 ft), Gebel Umm Shomer (2,576 m), Wadi Feiran (ancient Pharan) and El-Tor (ancient Raitho). Two of these had traditions linking them to the biblical Sinai: Gebel Musa-Ras Safsafah and Gebel Serbal.

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/1591/locale.jpg

St. Catherine’s Monatery, at the foot of Gebel Katerina, was built by order of Justinian I (reigned 527-565) to house a church erected by Helena, mother of Constantine the Great, which supposedly marks the spot of the burning bush. Nearby, just about 3.5 kilometers distance from Gebel Katherina, is Gebel Musa and Ras Safsafah (2,168 m / 7,046 ft), hailed as the actual Mount Sinai according to local Bedouin and Christian beliefs. When people visit south Sinai, Gebel Musa is usually pointed out as the traditional spot: in fact, some of the monks thought that Gebel Musa is Sinai and Ras Safsafah is Horeb.

Since it is rather isolated at the southeast end of a large three-and-a-half kilometer long granite range, the summit of Gebel Musa is not visible from the valley below (where the monastery is), not can it be seen from er-Rahah plain, which is supposed to be where the Israelites had camped. It was perhaps because of this that many of the 19th century explorers to Sinai were disappointed upon encountering this peak. The nearby Ras Safsafah, meanwhile, gave them a more positive impression.


St. Catherine’s Monastery

http://web.princeton.edu/sites/Archaeology/rp/sinaiexhibit/images/5.jpg
Gebel Musa

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/5024/rassafsafmat05411sr.jpg
Ras Safsafeh as seen from Wadi er-Raha (19th century)

As for Mount Serbal, we have the ruins of at least four churches in nearby Wadi Feiran dating from the 4th-6th centuries, as well as granite dwellings once inhabited by anchorites in the mountain proper. When the pilgrim Egeria visited Sinai at the end of the 4th century, she records being taken to a church on a nearby mountain (Gebel Tahuna), which commemorated the spot where Moses raised his staff during the battle against the Amalekites. The oasis (the largest in Sinai) is noted for having been the largest urban centre of the peninsula in late Roman times, as well as being the first Christian stronghold in the area, with its own bishop and a convent. Prior to this Serbal seems to have also been a Nabataean site, as is attested by the hundreds of Nabataean inscriptions found in the oasis and among the rocks of the mountain. Ceramic evidence suggests that the Nabataeans may have been in south Sinai as early as the 2nd century BC, and there is evidence of a settlement going back to at least to the Iron Age II period (7th century BC) at Tell Feiran. The reason why Serbal does not receive much of the same attention as Gebel Musa is perhaps because the community at Feiran was abandoned shortly after the Arab conquests of Sinai and Egypt, with some of the monastics eventually joining the monastery of St. Catherine fifty kilometers to the east. Sometime during the second millenium the bishopric was also moved from Feiran to St. Catherine’s.

Some argue that originally, Serbal was held to be the site (which explains the Christian presence there), but later Gebel Katherina was chosen (perhaps suggested by Josephus’ statement that Sinai “was the highest of the mountains in those eregions”), and still later, Gebel Musa (as per Bedouin tradition). Others say that the two sites really represented two rival traditions: the Serbal site being advocated by the local Copts, and Gebel Musa/Katherina being advocated by the Greeks. However, still others point out that there was really no tradition linking Gebel Katherina with the biblical Mount Sinai: Gebel Katherina was important mainly because St. Catherine’s body was supposedly buried there by angels after she was martyred in Alexandria.

http://www.urania.be/php-txt/dynpage/04T042.jpg
Wadi Feiran


Ruins of basilica at Wadi Feiran


Mount Serbal
 
BTW I should note that the location of Mount Sinai is also partly determined by where one believes the biblical Reed Sea (note: not a misspelling) was.
 
Having done some reading and research I have been unable to find any information on the Jewish people in Egypt as slaves, there seems to be no time when Ramses was Pharoah and the Pyramids were being created that a big group of foreign slaves was there. What is up with that? Any information on it? 🙂
Sorry for not having answered your question directly yet. 😊

If you’d read what everyone has posted, here’s what you’ll find.

1.) The pyramids (I assume you mean the ones at Giza) were built way before the commonly accepted dates of the Exodus, which are dated variously by different scholars somewhere during the 1500s to 1200s BC. There are around 118 Egyptian pyramids in total; most of them were built during a period between the 2600s to the 1800s BC (a couple date from the 8th-7th century BC, one of which lies in modern Sudan). The pyramids of Giza were built during the reigns of Khufu (ca. 2589-2566 BC), Khafre (ca. 2558-2532 BC) and Menkaure (2532-2504 BC). As you can infer, pyramid construction was a thing of the past during the reign of Rameses II or any other New Kingdom pharaoh, something that would not get a (brief) revival until much later.

(And for the record, while it was common to think of the Great Pyramid as being built using slave labor - a misconception started by the ancient Greeks - current evidence now points out that the pyramid was built by thousands of paid workers, perhaps even volunteers. In fact there was a worker’s village near the site where those involved in the project were housed during the course of construction. Evidence suggests that around 5,000 were permanent workers on salaries with the balance working three or four month shifts in lieu of taxes while receiving subsistence “wages” of ten loaves of bread and a jug of beer per day.)

2.) While it is popular to think of Ramesses II (reigned 1279-1213 BC) as the pharaoh at the time of the exodus from Egypt (an idea perpetuated by many adaptations of the story), in reality he’s just one of the various candidates. The thing is, as mentioned in the previous posts, we aren’t too sure about many aspects of the story. We don’t know exactly when it happened, and we don’t even know where crucial sites like the Sea of Reeds or Mount Sinai actually are. If we can’t be certain about where to look, we won’t find anything.

3.) There might not be a ‘big’ group involved in the exodus, again going by Flinders Petrie, George Mendenhall et al.'s interpretation of the word 'elef.
 
  • Perhaps the most difficult to explain bit of evidence, if one should choose to deny that Israel actually spent time in Egypt, is the presence of a surprisingly large number of Egyptian personal names in the genealogies of the Levites. Some significant examples would be: Moses, Assir, Pashhur, Hophni, Phenehas, and Merari.
Most critical scholars grant that the proportion of Egyptian names among the Levites is surprisingly large and could scarcely be accidental. Accordingly, they are ready to agree that the tribe of Levi, or at least part of it, spent some time in Egypt. Other scholars point out that since the Egyptian names seem to be confined to Levites, then perhaps they are the only tribe that really lived in Egypt. Of course, arguments from silence are notoriously weak

Archeology and Moses’ Birth

The name of Moses, the great deliverer and law giver, dominates the last 40 years of Hebrew residence in Egypt. The story of how the Egyptian princess found him in the boat of papyrus among the reeds by the riverside has many parallels in ancient lore.

For instance, the story of Sargon I (The Great) of Akkad (c. 2100 BC), is recorded on a tablet dating from the 9th century BC:

My humble mother conceived me; she bore me in secret, placed me in an ark of bulrushes, made fast my door with pitch and gave me to the river which did not overwhelm me. The river lifted me up and carried me to Akki the irrigator…Akki the irrigator hauled me out…took me to be his son and brought me up.

Similar stories are told of Romulous and Remus, Bacchus, and Perseus. As one writer commented (Caigen):

There is no need to postulate a common origin for such simple and natural romances, but if one must do so, the episode of Moses (16th century BC) may have been the inspiration of them all

Also of significance: at least some of the plagues seemed to be directed against specific gods of Egypt, not just the people – perhaps to demonstrate thereby Yahweh’s superiority. That Egypt’s gods were being cursed, in some way, is made clear by Exodus 12:12. Just in what way and to what extent the pagan cults were involved in the plagues is not entirely clear, however.

The knowledge extant concerning the practical, everyday worship of the Egyptian pantheon is meager; moreover, the source materials tell us little about their metaphysical assumptions.

It is obvious, however, that the twenty-two Egyptian provinces each had their own religious centers and totemic animal or plant.

It is precisely the attributes of these deities which are involved in the plagues, but whether each of the plagues was thought to be the special domain of one or another of the Egyptian gods cannot be stated with certainty.

Sophisticated computer calculations indicate that the biblical parting of the Red Sea, said to have allowed Moses and the Israelites to escape from bondage in Egypt, could have occured precisely as the Bible describes it.

Because of the peculiar geography of the northern end of the Red Sea, researchers report Sunday in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, a moderate wind blowing constantly for about 10 hours could have caused the sea to recede about a mile and the water level to drop 10 feet, leaving dry land in the area where many biblical scholars believe the crossing occured.

An abrupt change in the wind would have allowed the waters to come crashing back into the area in a few moments, a phenomenon that the Bible says inundated the Israelites’ pursuers.

This explanation “should not affect the religious aspects of the Exodus,” wrote meteorologist Nathan Paldor of the University of Rhode Island and oceanographer Doron Nof of Florida State University. “Some may even find our proposed mechanism to be a supportive argument for the original biblical description of this event.”

Although few religious scholars or scientists were familiar with the report, oceanographer Gabriel Csanady of Old Dominion University in Norfolk, Va., said the new scenario is “very plausible.” Csanady was one of the reviewers who recommended publication of the report in the Bulletin
Shalom
God Bless
 
Just to continue on the candidates for Mount Sinai. Now we’ll look at north and central Sinai.

Gebel Helal (892 m / 2,900 ft): Scholars such as Otto Eissfeldy and William F. Albright, as well as Major C.S. Jarvis (the British governor of Sinai in the 1920s) theorized that the Israelites departed from Egypt via the northeast, travelling on the barrier island that separates the Meditteranean from Lake Bardawil, which in their opinion was the biblical ‘Sea of Reeds’ or yam suph. The route would then have gone southeast to Helal, forty-five kilometers south of el-Arish (identified as Sukkot in a medieval tradition).

Har Karkom, aka Jebel 'Ideid (847 m / 2,753 ft): The site favored by Italian prehistorian Emmanuel Anati, who has spent the better part of twenty years surveying and excavating at the mountain and the surrounding area, which is located ten kilometers inside Israel’s present border with Egypt. Anati and his team have identified about 1,200 archaeological sites around Har Karkom, including campsites, huts, tumuli, and circular cultic installations with standing pillars, all made of stone, as well as over 40,000 rock engravings. Using various analyses, Anati’s team date the periods of occupation as follows: Palaeolithic through Chalcolithic periods (40,000-3,400 BC); the Early to Middle Bronze I Ages (3400-2000 BC); a hiatus from around 2000 BC to 1000-900 BC; and evidence for occupation during the Roman and Byzantine periods. Anati circumvents the glaring problem of a lack of evidence of a human presence at the site during the Late Bronze through the Iron I periods (which is when most scholars expect to find the Israelites escaping from Egypt) by proposing a major shift in chronology: he proposes that the exodus actually occurred around 2300 BC in order to fit his site with the biblical account. He points to what he believes is the base of an altar and to twelve stones standing nearby (cf. Exodus 24:4), as well as a rock drawing which to him suspiciously looks like the Tablets of the Law because it has “a dual rounded top and ten partitions.”


Har Karkom


Circle of stones

http://www.uwec.edu/jolhm/Student_Research/McDonald/Images/tencommandents.gif
Rock drawing

Gebel Sinn Bishr (618 m / 2,009 ft): Connected to Mount Sinai by historical geographer Manashe Har-el, who traces the route of the exodus from the northeastern Nile Delta down to the Bitter Lakes (which for him is the biblical Reed Sea), journeying southwards for thirty-eight kilometers while stopping at Bir el-Mura (“bitter well,” connected to the biblical Marah) and 'Ayun Musa (connected to Elim) before turning to the northeast to follow the Wadi Sidr. He interprets the Arabic name to mean “the reporting of the law, or the Laws of man,” and concludes that “this is the only mountain in the Sinai Peninsula, Midian and Edom where the name Sinai has been preserved in the form ‘Sin’.”
 
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