The Jewish people in Egypt as slaves

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I believe there is no way they could have possibly counted the number of units back that time. :eek:
 
Personally, I think that Ahmose was most likely the Pharoah. There are so many connections between the Hyksos and their expulsion and the Israelites and their Exodus.

Also, the city Ramses was originally called Avaris. Avaris was the Hyksos capital. It is likely that later writers used the contemporary name of Ramses instead of Avaris because it would be more recognizable. It is not uncommon for this kind of thing to happen. Recently I read information about barbarians from Germany. Although at the time they occupied the region that is now called Germany, they were actually there long before the country was established.

It is interesting to speculate who the Pharoah was, but I doubt we will ever know for sure. Without being able to pin down exactly when the Hebrews were in Egypt, it is hard to make a good case for the specific historical claims of Exodus. I believe the story and I hope one day there will be definitive proof.

JK
 
JK8619 said:
Personally, I think that Ahmose was most likely the Pharoah. There are so many connections between the Hyksos and their expulsion and the Israelites and their Exodus.
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That’s certainly that idea that the Hyksos were the Israelites (recently popularized by Simcha Jacobovici in his documentary The Exodus Decoded - yes, that Simcha Jacobovici), but there’s also the slightly related idea that the Hyksos were the ones who ruled Egypt at the time of Joseph (which in this theory is dated to somewhere around the Second Intermediate Period: ca. 1650-1550 BC), which explains why the (Asiatic?) Pharaoh in Genesis was favorably disposed towards Joseph and his family. Yet another one has it that it was the Hyksos who persecuted the Israelites.

As for Jacobovici’s ‘evidence’, see here (yes, this is yet again another link to ABR before anyone asks :D) and here.
Also, the city Ramses was originally called Avaris. Avaris was the Hyksos capital. It is likely that later writers used the contemporary name of Ramses instead of Avaris because it would be more recognizable. It is not uncommon for this kind of thing to happen. Recently I read information about barbarians from Germany. Although at the time they occupied the region that is now called Germany, they were actually there long before the country was established.
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You mean the Germanic peoples?
 
patrick457 said:
That’s certainly that idea that the Hyksos were the Israelites (recently popularized by Simcha Jacobovici in his documentary The Exodus Decoded - yes, that Simcha Jacobovici), but there’s also the slightly related idea that the Hyksos were the ones who ruled Egypt at the time of Joseph (which in this theory is dated to somewhere around the Second Intermediate Period: ca. 1650-1550 BC), which explains why the (Asiatic?) Pharaoh in Genesis was favorably disposed towards Joseph and his family. Yet another one has it that it was the Hyksos who persecuted the Israelites.

As for Jacobovici’s ‘evidence’, see here (yes, this is yet again another link to ABR before anyone asks :D) and here.

You mean the Germanic peoples?
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My old History book said that the Hyksos, being a semite group, made the israelites invasion to Egypt easier. I don’t know who is right anymore.
 
“Mitzrayim” (Egypt) means constriction, limitation. The spiritual Egyptian exile is the animal soul’s restricting and concealing the G-dly soul so severely that the G-dly soul is compressed to the degree that it is diminished and obscured. “Exodus from Egypt” is the removal of the constriction and bounds; i.e. the intellect in the brain illuminates the heart, bringing about fine character traits translated into actual practice…
– Rabbi Yosef Yitzchak of Lubavitch (as quoted in Hayom Yom, Shevat 4)
 
Zimm3r said:
Having done some reading and research I have been unable to find any information on the Jewish people in Egypt as slaves, there seems to be no time when Ramses was Pharoah and the Pyramids were being created that a big group of foreign slaves was there. What is up with that? Any information on it? 🙂
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I would recommend a book called “Pharaohs and Kings” written by David M. Rohl.

“Pharaohs and Kings unveils the historical reality of such biblical personalities as Moses, David, and Solomon, and such archaeological wonders as the desecrated statue of Joseph in his coat of many colors. It reveals the Old Testament to be a true account of the history of the Jewish people. Illustrated throughout, it will appeal to the vast audience for revisionist archaeology and history as well as to the many Christian and Jewish readers who accept the historical validity of the Bible. Pharaohs and Kings was made into a highly acclaimed television series produced by The Learning Channel.”

amazon.com/Pharaohs-Kings-David-Rohl/dp/0609801309

Check out these short Youtubes:

youtube.com/watch?v=ChfcfOVPS0Q

youtube.com/watch?v=Tjucx_U57_o

PHARAOHS AND KINGS (reviewed on December 15, 1995)

“Egyptologist Rohl compellingly presents a groundbreaking analysis of archaeological evidence for the historicity of the early books of the Old Testament. Because two centuries of archaeology in the Middle East have generally failed to prove the validity of the Old Testament accounts, historians have increasingly begun to relegate these ancient texts to the realm of folklore. Rohl, chairman of the Institute for Study of Interdisciplinary Sciences in London, acknowledges the paucity of evidence to support the conventional dating of biblical events, but he argues that the reason for this is that scholars have misdated important events in both Egyptian and biblical history, thus missing the biblical significance of archaeological finds. Closely analyzing such finds from Egypt, he concludes that archaeological support can be found for the major events of the early Old Testament by dating them according to his corrected ``New Chronology.’’ According to this revised chronology, for instance, the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt took place in approximately 1447 b.c. (instead of c. 1250 b.c. as in the conventional dating). The most intriguing part of Rohl’s text is his analysis of what he regards as archaeological evidence of biblical events: a ruined palace becomes the palace of the vizier Joseph, complete with a shattered statue of him; an ancient Egyptian city with evidence of Asiatic settlers becomes the place where the Israelites lived as slaves; another ancient town whose remains show signs of conflagration and mass burials proves to be Joshua’s Jericho. If Rohl is correct, he has reanalyzed the archaeological record to find support for events told in the early books of the Bible, and he has produced a work with profound implications for both biblical and Egyptian history. A breathtaking archaeological tour de force, persuasively argued, sure to be controversial. The Learning Channel will begin airing a series based on this book in mid-January. (four-color and b&w photos, line drawings)”

This too is an interesting read:

ensignmessage.com/archives/exodusscptcs.html
 
cornbread_r2 said:
As I understand it, it wasn’t just thousands of slaves. From wiki:

Marching ten abreast, and without accounting for livestock, they would have formed a line 150 miles long.[19]

When a country loses @ 40% of its population it’s going to leave a mark whether their historians record the reasons for it or not. As far as I know, the Bible is the only evidence for such a significant demographic shift. Their unsympathetic neighbors didn’t record it – or take advantage of it; their other, mundane records, didn’t reflect it.

(Btw, ponder that last wiki sentence while recalling that the Israelites didn’t begin to cross the Red Sea until Pharaoh’s army was already within view and were yet still able, somehow, to get across before he arrived at the opposite shoreline.)
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Check this out too; I watched it a few months ago:

aish.com/h/9av/ht/48961251.html
 
Zimm3r said:
Having done some reading and research I have been unable to find any information on the Jewish people in Egypt as slaves, there seems to be no time when Ramses was Pharoah and the Pyramids were being created that a big group of foreign slaves was there. What is up with that? Any information on it? 🙂
Click to expand...
Check this out too; I watched it a few months ago:

aish.com/h/9av/ht/48961251.html
 
minichibi said:
My old History book said that the Hyksos, being a semite group, made the israelites invasion to Egypt easier. I don’t know who is right anymore.
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Just wait until you hear about the thirteen Mount Sinais. 🤷
 
tabycat said:
It’s easier to wacht a movie then read a book’ :cool::cool:😛
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Mr. DeMille’s two Moses films (the 1956 version was a remake of the 1923 silent) are so influential that it’s really hard not to think of the Pharaohs of the Exodus as being Seti I and Ramesses II, of the enslavement of the Israelites comprising of them erecting enormous statues and gigantic stonemasonry, the Red Sea (sic) starting to part from the shore where the Israelites are standing, the declaration of the Ten Words and God handing the tablets (or rather, rounded-off rectangular slabs) to Moses being the same event, and the idolaters being struck by lightning or falling into a chasm. 😃
 
farpinho said:
Let me guess… a Muslim book? 🤷
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Actually, no. Some people do believe that the biblical Mount Sinai is actually somewhere in Saudi Arabia mainly because St. Paul said in Galatians 4:25 that “Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia.” 🤷 That being said, there are holes in that idea, but I’d let that save that for slightly later.
 
patrick457 said:
Actually, no. Some people do believe that the biblical Mount Sinai is actually somewhere in Saudi Arabia mainly because St. Paul said in Galatians 4:25 that “Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia.” 🤷 That being said, there are holes in that idea, but I’d let that save that for slightly later.
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Since we are talking about the location of Mount Sinai not being well known… I wanted to ask you something: I read somewhere that some people believe that the “Damascus” where Paul saw the light is actually Qumram and that Qumram used to be called “Damascus” during Paul’s time… know anything about it?🤷
 
farpinho said:
Since we are talking about the location of Mount Sinai not being well known… I wanted to ask you something: I read somewhere that some people believe that the “Damascus” where Paul saw the light is actually Qumram and that Qumram used to be called “Damascus” during Paul’s time… know anything about it?🤷
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Well, there was this work known as the Damascus Document (aka the Cairo Damascus Document), fragments of which were found in Qumran. The CD is unique because it is the only Qumran sectarian work that was known before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, medieval copies having also been found before that in the Cairo Geniza.

The reason why the Damascus Document is called such is because the work makes constant references to “the new covenant (made) in the land of Damascus.” The thing is that the Qumran sectarians apparently often used codewords and symbolic names to designate persons, places and events in their works: so for instance, the founder of the sect is designated as the “Teacher of Righteousness,” his enemy is the “Wicked Priest,” and “the Kittim” (a term which originally designated Cypriots) are most likely the Romans.

Hence, many scholars think that the ‘Damascus’ alluded to here is probably not the Damascus in Syria but is most likely a reference to Qumran itself, since “the interpreter of the Law” (the “Teacher of Righteousness”) and his followers are said to have “went out of the land of Judah to sojourn in the land of Damascus” (cf. Amos 5:27: “‘Therefore, I will make you go into exile beyond Damascus,’ says the LORD, whose name is the God of hosts”) to escape their enemies, who were leading the people astray.

And at the time of the desolation of the land there arose removers of the bound who led Israel astray. And the land was ravaged because they preached rebellion against the commandments of God given by the hand of Moses and of His holy anointed ones, and because they prophesied lies to turn Israel away from following God. But God remembered the Covenant with the forefathers, and he raised from Aaron men of discernment and from Israel men of wisdom, and He caused them to hear. And they dug the Well [of which Moses said]: the well which the princes dug, which the nobles of the people delved with the stave (Num. xxi, 18).
The Well is the Law, and those who dug it were the converts of Israel who went out of the land of Judah to sojourn in the land of Damascus. God called them all princes because they sought Him, and their renown was disputed by no man. The Stave is the Interpreter of the Law of whom Isaiah said, He makes a tool for His work (Isa. liv, 16); and the nobles of the people are those who come to dig the Well with the staves with which the Stave ordained that they should walk in all the age of wickedness – and without them they shall find nothing – until he comes who shall teach righteousness at the end of days.

That being said, it’s probably the first time I’ve heard someone try to connect this exegesis with Paul. (Must be due to the idea that Jesus and the early Christians were directly connected with Qumran.) Personally I kind of doubt it. 🤷
 
farpinho said:
I mean the israelites, I can’t imagine how they counted the Pharaoh and Jericho units 🤷 ok, I admit this is a very ignorant question lol… 😊
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Almost forgot this one. 😃

Well, assuming that the recorded numbers are indeed historically reliable I don’t see much of a problem in counting six hundred 'alapim, given how (going by Petrie, Mendenhall et al.'s scenario) a given 'elef would have consisted of as few as five to up as many as twenty men, with ten being a good average.

In Joshua’s case (years later, when the first generation have died), three 'alapim were sent to take over Ai “because [the people] are few,” with thirty-six men being killed in the attempt. In this interpretation, most of the dispatched troops would have been slaughtered: in other words, more than half, if not almost all, died. A rather hefty loss and a waste of able-bodied fighting men, if you ask me. No wonder “the hearts of the people melted and became as water.”
 
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