The Jews And Jesus

[chosen_people]

****The following post appeared in one of the forums on this website.

“This is absolutely correct. The Jews once held a special place in God’s heart but they are now an accursed people and will remain so until the end of time and no amount of wishy-washy watered down “feel good” theology will alter that fact. This is the awful truth. They invoked a dreadful curse upon their own heads in saying: “His blood be on us and our children”. Jews still inherit the blood-guilt of their fathers. They cannot undo that any more than we can undo the deed of Adam. We are all doomed to Hell. It is only through the love of God, His Grace we are spared that fate. The same applies to Jews. It is the only solution.”

Is this representative of current Catholic and Christian beliefs?

As understand it what is being said is that the Jews killed Jesus and all Jews share a common guilt for that act.

If so, again according to current accepted Catholic and Christian beliefs, are all Jews to be punished and if so how?

 

[thistle]

****The following post appeared in one of the forums on this website.

“This is absolutely correct. The Jews once held a special place in God’s heart but they are now an accursed people and will remain so until the end of time and no amount of wishy-washy watered down “feel good” theology will alter that fact. This is the awful truth. They invoked a dreadful curse upon their own heads in saying: “His blood be on us and our children”. Jews still inherit the blood-guilt of their fathers. They cannot undo that any more than we can undo the deed of Adam. We are all doomed to Hell. It is only through the love of God, His Grace we are spared that fate. The same applies to Jews. It is the only solution.”

Is this representative of current Catholic and Christian beliefs?

As understand it what is being said is that the Jews killed Jesus and all Jews share a common guilt for that act.

If so, again according to current accepted Catholic and Christian beliefs, are all Jews to be punished and if so how?

CCC 839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,“for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”

CCC 840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

**Jews are not collectively responsible for Jesus’ death **

CCC 597 The historical complexity of Jesus’ trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles’ calls to conversion after Pentecost. Jesus himself, in forgiving them on the cross, and Peter in following suit, both accept “the ignorance” of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders. Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places, based merely on the crowd’s cry: “His blood be on us and on our children!”, a formula for ratifying a judicial sentence. As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council:

. . . Neither all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . The Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed as if this followed from holy Scripture.

 

[Genesis315]

The Jews are like anybody else. Barring mitigating circumstances, they must be baptized and profess the Catholic faith to be saved. There are many saints from a Jewish background, who did just that.

If they are not baptized through no fault of their own, they may be saved by an implicit baptism by desire, in which they have perfect contrition for their sins and perfect conversion towards God.

 

[chosen_people]

CCC 839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,“for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”

CCC 840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

**Jews are not collectively responsible for Jesus’ death **

CCC 597 The historical complexity of Jesus’ trial is apparent in the Gospel accounts. The personal sin of the participants (Judas, the Sanhedrin, Pilate) is known to God alone. Hence we cannot lay responsibility for the trial on the Jews in Jerusalem as a whole, despite the outcry of a manipulated crowd and the global reproaches contained in the apostles’ calls to conversion after Pentecost. Jesus himself, in forgiving them on the cross, and Peter in following suit, both accept “the ignorance” of the Jews of Jerusalem and even of their leaders. Still less can we extend responsibility to other Jews of different times and places, based merely on the crowd’s cry: “His blood be on us and on our children!”, a formula for ratifying a judicial sentence. As the Church declared at the Second Vatican Council:

. . . Neither all Jews indiscriminately at that time, nor Jews today, can be charged with the crimes committed during his Passion. . . **The Jews should not be spoken of as rejected or accursed **as if this followed from holy Scripture.

Thank you for your detailed reply. As I understand from your response the post I quoted did not reflect the views of the Catholic Church. You mentioned the Second Vatican Council. I understand that certain groups of Catholics do not accept what was declared at the Second Vatican Council. If this is true does it also include the things you quoted above concerning the Catholic Church and the Jews?

 

[Tom]

I understand that certain groups of Catholics do not accept what was declared at the Second Vatican Council. If this is true does it also include the things you quoted above concerning the Catholic Church and the Jews?

Martin Luther was a Catholic, so the fact that “certain groups” do not accept official teaching of the Church is really not relevant except to say some Christians do not follow Church teaching. True statement but it doesn’t reflect on the truth of the teaching. I may not believe the Whitehouse exists in Washington D.C., that doesn’t mean there’s any empty lot on Pennsylvania avenue.

 

[puzzleannie]

Thank you for your detailed reply. As I understand from your response the post I quoted did not reflect the views of the Catholic Church. You mentioned the Second Vatican Council. I understand that certain groups of Catholics do not accept what was declared at the Second Vatican Council. If this is true does it also include the things you quoted above concerning the Catholic Church and the Jews?

no OP does not represent authentic Catholic teaching, it represents sentiments and attitudes which have been condemned by the Vatican in the strongest possible terms

yes there are people who self-identify as Catholics who reject the teachings and dogmatic definitions of VII. They have voluntarily separated themselves from communion with the Catholic Church, and in some cases have excommunicated themselves through their actions. If they claim to be Catholic or to speak for the Catholic church, or to represent Catholic dogma they are lying and will be judged on that basis.

check out Karls e-letter of 2/6/07 for a critique and response of misinformation that crops up in the secular world due to the misguided (at best) or evil (at worst construction) activities of those dissenters.

 

[chosen_people]

The Jews are like anybody else. Barring mitigating circumstances, they must be baptized and profess the Catholic faith to be saved. There are many saints from a Jewish background, who did just that.

If they are not baptized through no fault of their own, they may be saved by an implicit baptism by desire, in which they have perfect contrition for their sins and perfect conversion towards God.

thank you for your reply

The concept of salvation from sin as it is understood in Christianity has no equivalent in Judaism.

Salvation from sin is unnecessary in Judaism, because Judaism does not believe that mankind is inherently evil or sinful or in need of Divine Intervention in order to escape eternal damnation. In fact, Judaism does not even believe in eternal damnation.

Judaism recognizes that people have sinful impulses, but Judaism also recognizes that people have an inclination to do good and to be good, and that people are able to choose whether to follow the evil inclination or the good inclination.

It is within our ability to be righteous. The Torah itself says, " The word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it." (Deut. 30:14). And if we miss the mark, when we fail to fulfill the good laws that G-d has provided for us, then we can obtain forgiveness through prayer, repentence and good deeds.

When the Torah speaks of G-d as our Salvation or our Redeemer, it is not speaking of salvation or redemption from sin; rather, it speaks of salvation from the very concrete, day-to-day problems that we face, such as redemption from slavery in Egypt, or salvation from our enemies in war.

source:jewfaq.org/salvatn.htm

My question was whether Catholic’s believe, as is indicated in the post I quoted from, that the Jews bear collective guilt throughout the ages for the death of Jesus and if so what is their punishment?

 

[chosen_people]

no OP does not represent authentic Catholic teaching, it represents sentiments and attitudes which have been condemned by the Vatican in the strongest possible terms

yes there are people who self-identify as Catholics who reject the teachings and dogmatic definitions of VII. They have voluntarily separated themselves from communion with the Catholic Church, and in some cases have excommunicated themselves through their actions. If they claim to be Catholic or to speak for the Catholic church, or to represent Catholic dogma they are lying and will be judged on that basis.

check out Karls e-letter of 2/6/07 for a critique and response of misinformation that crops up in the secular world due to the misguided (at best) or evil (at worst construction) activities of those dissenters.

I’m getting off topic but it is totally unclear to me what the role of the Vatican and the Pope is in the Catholic Church. For example the thread on whether Zionism was anti Catholic and anti Christian. I expected the simple answer to be on a Catholic forum that the Vatican recognizes Israel and has diplomatic relations with Israel - ergo- Zionism is not anti Catholic or anti Christian. However, several responses were contrary to the Vatican position.

 

[chosen_people]

Martin Luther was a Catholic, so the fact that “certain groups” do not accept official teaching of the Church is really not relevant except to say some Christians do not follow Church teaching. True statement but it doesn’t reflect on the truth of the teaching. I may not believe the Whitehouse exists in Washington D.C., that doesn’t mean there’s any empty lot on Pennsylvania avenue.

Does this mean that those “Catholics” who say they reject Vatican II are in fact not true Catholics?

 

[thistle]

Does this mean that those “Catholics” who say they reject Vatican II are in fact not true Catholics?

Actually you are getting off topic here. There are other threads on this subject. If we don’t stay on title topic which you started we might find the moderators closing the thread.

By the way what I quoted to you in post #2 is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church and is official teaching. This must be accepted by all Catholics.

 

[Trad_Catholic_1]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=130289

 

[Tom]

Does this mean that those “Catholics” who say they reject Vatican II are in fact not true Catholics?

I don’t know that there is a line which can be crossed to be a “true” Catholic. Certainly there are Catholics who don’t follow Church teaching, does that mean they aren’t “true”? I’d rather say they don’t follow Church teaching.Perhaps not a good example of a practicing Catholic. The point is that simply because a person says he is a Catholic does not mean he knows, or follows, the correct teaching of the Church. One of the wonderful things about the Catholic Church is we have set beliefs. If a person feels artifical birth control is not a sin, that is their opinion and not the teaching of the Church.

 

[vern_humphrey]

A person who rejects Catholic de fide teaching does indeed separate himself from the Church. A catholic who accepts artificial birth control in violation of *Humane Vitae *commits a grevious sin. A Catholic who participates in an abortion excommunicates him self latae sententae.

 

[Tom]

A person who rejects Catholic de fide teaching does indeed separate himself from the Church. A catholic who accepts artificial birth control in violation of *Humane Vitae *commits a grevious sin. A Catholic who participates in an abortion excommunicates him self latae sententae.

This is quite far off the topic, but excommunication is more a medicinal than a vindictive penalty. It is intended, not so much to punish as to correct, and bring the person back to the path of righteousness. The term “true” Catholic is meaningless. Someone who is under an excommunication is still a Catholic. To say someone is not a true Catholic would, to me, infer the person was not able to receive absolution.

 

[vern_humphrey]

This is quite far off the topic, but excommunication is more a medicinal than a vindictive penalty. It is intended, not so much to punish as to correct, and bring the person back to the path of righteousness. The term “true” Catholic is meaningless. Someone who is under an excommunication is still a Catholic.

You are quite correct in that formal excommuinication is often in the nature of a “shot across the bows” – a warning and corrective measure to make the person in question realize the seriousness of his offense.

There is also excommunication latae sententae – self-excommunication, where one commits a serious sin that makes him inelligible to receive the sacrements. (Formal participation in an abortion is a good example of such a sin.)

When a person has excommunicated himself, it is much more serious – since they have deliberately separated themselves from the Church. Such a person sins if they continue to take the Sacrament, and the very nature of the offense (including as it does overwheening pride) renders such persons unlikely to seek forgiveness.

To say someone is not a true Catholic would, to me, infer the person was not able to receive absolution.

There are many definitions of the word “true.” I would suggest that one who holds a heretical position (such as advancing abortion) and teaches it to others, is not “true.” Catholic, they may be, but “true” they are not.