The Johan Sebastian Bach Argument

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Peter Kreeft, in his 20 proofs for the existence of God that he put into his “Handndbook of Catholic Apologetics”, offers this proof, with brief commentary:

**There is the music of Johan Sebastian Bach.
Therefore, there is a God.

You either see this one or you don’t.**

What are the merits of the proof? Discuss.
 
Stated that way, the merits are not too apparent.

From my particular apologetic stance, I would argue that apart from the Catholic worldview there is no basis for objective standards of esthetics. Typically, this kind of claim and it’s attendant argumentation is much more forceful and direct when the subject matter is ethics, epistemology or metaphysics. but I believe it works with esthetics as well.

Unbeleivers have no objective standards by which to judge the music of JSB to be qualitatively distinct and superior to, say, a “farting orangutan” (thonk you, Homer Simspon, for that comparison).

Bill G
 
Stated that way, the merits are not too apparent.

From my particular apologetic stance, I would argue that apart from the Catholic worldview there is no basis for objective standards of esthetics. Typically, this kind of claim and it’s attendant argumentation is much more forceful and direct when the subject matter is ethics, epistemology or metaphysics. but I believe it works with esthetics as well.

Unbeleivers have no objective standards by which to judge the music of JSB to be qualitatively distinct and superior to, say, a “farting orangutan” (thonk you, Homer Simspon, for that comparison).

Bill G
Haha you made me laugh out loud 👍
 
On the surface, the main merit of that is that it’s a joke and you’re supposed to laugh at it.

Beyond that, however, it is an argument about design and intelligence. Without seeing Dr. Kreeft’s commentary (which I’m sure is very good), I’d be hard pressed to comment on what he’s getting at with it.

-ACEGC
 
On the surface, the main merit of that is that it’s a joke and you’re supposed to laugh at it.

Beyond that, however, it is an argument about design and intelligence. Without seeing Dr. Kreeft’s commentary (which I’m sure is very good), I’d be hard pressed to comment on what he’s getting at with it.

-ACEGC
“You either see this or you don’t” IS the commentary I was referring to.

IMO Dr. Kreeft is going for a “degrees of perfection” argument, sort of like what Aquinas used in the Second Way. The theory being that Johann Sebastian Bach’s music is as close to perfect as music is going to get. If you concede that you concede that there are degrees of perfection, and after going through a few more steps you’d have to conclude there’s a God.

I’ve read that section of the book for my Apologetics class and it’s clear from the questions at the end of the chapter that he intends for us to take the “proof” seriously. For my part, I felt embarrassed that it was in there; I felt like it made the book lose credibility because the argument was so ridiculous.

But I suppose reformulated a certain way it sort of kind of has merit if you squint at it in the right light.
 
that a creature could come so far as to be able to create something so mathmatically perfect and profound and moving could not happen by happenstance?

plus the spirituality of the piece.
 
Bach is no proof of God, that’s silly.

Now Puccini, *he * is an irrefutable proof of God.
 
that a creature could come so far as to be able to create something so mathmatically perfect and profound and moving could not happen by happenstance?
I think that’s probably something sort of like what he’s going for. But it’s horribly unclear if that’s what he meant by the way he wrote it.

Not only that, I disagree with this formulation of the proof. Consider:
  1. Bach’s music is mathematically perfect and profound
  2. A human creature could not create something so mathematically perfect and profound by happenstance
  3. The reason he can’t create it by happenstance is ???
  4. Therefore God must have created such a creature
There’s a huge hole in 3.
 
I have a CD of Bach organ music in my car right now. It IS from God.
 
I think he’s just acknowledging God in the beauty of other things, I don’t think it’s necessarily a philosophical argument. It’s like looking at beautiful scenery and being amazed spiritually, thinking - what beauty God has created.
 
Peter Kreeft, in his 20 proofs for the existence of God that he put into his “Handndbook of Catholic Apologetics”, offers this proof, with brief commentary:

**There is the music of Johan Sebastian Bach.
Therefore, there is a God.

You either see this one or you don’t.**

What are the merits of the proof? Discuss.
This is a common argument. From memory, I think Herman Hesse uses it, E.M. Cioran (who is normally considered an atheist) also says Bach is greatest proof of God. I think Nietzsche said the same. I believe it, absolutely.

The music of Bach shows the possibility of a beautiful, ordered universe (even for those [like me, unfortunately] who believe this world does not!). The music of Bach reflect the presence of a transcendental reality (otherwise, what is its organising principal), which resonates with something inside us humans. If you listen to Bach, say the Passacaglia in C minor) you will KNOW God exists. Surely, this can only be a foretaste of the Beautific Vision.

People believe that the existence of a meaningful, well-ordered and beautiful universe would prove God. And there is one- it is Bach’s Art of Fugue.

If I can be quasi-gnostic for a moment, it realizes and exemplifies the possibility of a world free from the constraints of space, time and matter- an emotion which transcends, and yet perfects, the movements of human heart.

The same can be said for much other music, as well. I would say Bon Jovi and U2.
 
I think he’s just acknowledging God in the beauty of other things, I don’t think it’s necessarily a philosophical argument. It’s like looking at beautiful scenery and being amazed spiritually thinking - what beauty God has created.
My heart goes out to people who love such beauty and do not have God to raise their voice in thanksgiving. I think it was G.K. Chesterson that said that it is a sad thing to have a heart filled with gratitude and no one thank.
 
“You either see this or you don’t” IS the commentary I was referring to.

IMO Dr. Kreeft is going for a “degrees of perfection” argument, sort of like what Aquinas used in the Second Way. The theory being that Johann Sebastian Bach’s music is as close to perfect as music is going to get. If you concede that you concede that there are degrees of perfection, and after going through a few more steps you’d have to conclude there’s a God.

I’ve read that section of the book for my Apologetics class and it’s clear from the questions at the end of the chapter that he intends for us to take the “proof” seriously. For my part, I felt embarrassed that it was in there; I felt like it made the book lose credibility because the argument was so ridiculous.
I don’t think it’s ridiculous at all. But I agree with him that “you see it or you don’t.”

This is my wife’s major reason for believing in God. I once had the difficult task of trying to “translate” it into more rationalistic terms for a friend of ours who has abandoned Christianity.

Perhaps I should have imitated Kreeft and not tried!

But I commend him for including it. Intuition has its place alongside (not instead of) discursive reason.

In God, of course, the two are one, because God has intellect and not reason (as per Aquinas).

Edwin
 
Peter Kreeft, in his 20 proofs for the existence of God that he put into his “Handndbook of Catholic Apologetics”, offers this proof, with brief commentary:

**There is the music of Johan Sebastian Bach.
Therefore, there is a God.

You either see this one or you don’t.**

What are the merits of the proof? Discuss.
This is not a proof, not by the silliest standards of proof. Kreeft deserves a place in the Nancy Pelosi Hall of Fame, if that is indeed what he wrote.

It meets no standards for classical, logical proof, nor for a common-sense proof that leads stepwise from assertion to conclusion. There is only an assertion, and its terms are not defined.

For example, what specific properties are implicit in the word “God?” How are these properties related to JSB and his music? What is the connection between JSB’s music and “God?”

Then suppose that instead of JS Bach, another person was inserted in the “proof?” Try Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin on for size, and watch what happens, in your mind, to this phony “proof.”

Or, walk into a big city slum and pick out any handy cretin with an I.Q. of 70, who survives on government food stamps which he sells to buy meth, and give him a name, let’s say, Joe Blivet.

Reword the “proof” accordingly—

There are the meth-snorting skills and various accomplishments of Joe Blivet, such as tying his shoelaces and picking his nose.
Therefore, there is a God.

That doesn’t have quite the same emotional connection, does it?

Kreeft’s “proof” is no more than a simpleminded assertion designed to appeal to the many believers who have never performed an act of critical thinking in their entire lives, and who are determined never to do so.
 
This is not a proof, not by the silliest standards of proof. Kreeft deserves a place in the Nancy Pelosi Hall of Fame, if that is indeed what he wrote.

It meets no standards for classical, logical proof, nor for a common-sense proof that leads stepwise from assertion to conclusion. There is only an assertion, and its terms are not defined.

For example, what specific properties are implicit in the word “God?” How are these properties related to JSB and his music? What is the connection between JSB’s music and “God?”

Then suppose that instead of JS Bach, another person was inserted in the “proof?” Try Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin on for size, and watch what happens, in your mind, to this phony “proof.”

Or, walk into a big city slum and pick out any handy cretin with an I.Q. of 70, who survives on government food stamps which he sells to buy meth, and give him a name, let’s say, Joe Blivet.

Reword the “proof” accordingly—

There are the meth-snorting skills and various accomplishments of Joe Blivet, such as tying his shoelaces and picking his nose.
Therefore, there is a God.

That doesn’t have quite the same emotional connection, does it?

Kreeft’s “proof” is no more than a simpleminded assertion designed to appeal to the many believers who have never performed an act of critical thinking in their entire lives, and who are determined never to do so.
Ok, here is a logical formulation of the argument.
  • The music of Bach communicates [to some people] a sense of the transcendent.
  • Therefore a sense of the transcendent must exist.
  • Therefore the transcendent must exist.
  • Therefore, a transcendent ‘something’ must exist.
  • This transcendent ‘something’ is God.
Another, simpler form.
  • People encounter something they call ‘God’ in the music of Bach.
  • Therefore, this ‘thing’ which they call ‘God’ must exist.
 
This is good. I am not sure what a reference to Nancy Pelosi has to do with it but I guess someone has to dirty the water.

JS Bach, Biber, Mozart, Hayden, Beethoven Symphonies and String Quartets, Puccini, Wagner, Mahler, Gorecki, Reich, Arvo Part, Tavener are all magnificent examples of the presence of God in music. Magnificent.
I think the Bach example has been around for a very long time and for good reason. His music is perfect.
I have worn out many an E. Power Biggs Bach Organ Lp, happily worn out, and now am scratching up CDs in my truck. The impervious CD that is crushed with one fatal drop.
The best thing about playing or listening to Bach organ or solo violin works is the sheer and immense power that is the music itself.
 
greylorn

Then suppose that instead of JS Bach, another person was inserted in the “proof?” Try Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin on for size, and watch what happens, in your mind, to this phony "proof."

Not really. You just revise the equation.

Hitler and Stalin do not prove God. They prove Satan. 😃
 
This is not a proof, not by the silliest standards of proof. Kreeft deserves a place in the Nancy Pelosi Hall of Fame, if that is indeed what he wrote.

It meets no standards for classical, logical proof, nor for a common-sense proof that leads stepwise from assertion to conclusion. There is only an assertion, and its terms are not defined.

For example, what specific properties are implicit in the word “God?” How are these properties related to JSB and his music? What is the connection between JSB’s music and “God?”

Then suppose that instead of JS Bach, another person was inserted in the “proof?” Try Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin on for size, and watch what happens, in your mind, to this phony “proof.”

Or, walk into a big city slum and pick out any handy cretin with an I.Q. of 70, who survives on government food stamps which he sells to buy meth, and give him a name, let’s say, Joe Blivet.

Reword the “proof” accordingly—

There are the meth-snorting skills and various accomplishments of Joe Blivet, such as tying his shoelaces and picking his nose.
Therefore, there is a God.

That doesn’t have quite the same emotional connection, does it?

Kreeft’s “proof” is no more than a simpleminded assertion designed to appeal to the many believers who have never performed an act of critical thinking in their entire lives, and who are determined never to do so.
Ad hominims out of place. Of course the " proof " doesn’t satisfy everyone. However I think it is pretty darn good. The point is that in a world without God, which just always existed without a cause, and just evolved by chance, there really is no place for a creature capable of aesthetic appreciation. That would be sort of unnecessary. But since there is a creature capable of appreciating the endless kinds of beauty in the universe, including Bach, the sunrise, the sunset, mountain vistas, a silent misy mornint beside the farm pond watching the bass rise, etc. just steaks to a loving creator, endlessly beautiful in Himself. It is a proof that speaks to the soul.

No proofs are absolute, God wants us use our minds and wills to respond to the signs. He always " speaks " to the humble, we are free to accept or reject, He wants a free choice. If the " proofs " were irrefutable were would be the merit?

 
Well stated, Linus. The sublime nature of our Creator is not easily understood, but is surely easily felt. It is warming to see discussions on the Arts and how we relate to God through the Arts, through nature and through one another. We best express our Lord when we express love and compassion.
 
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