The keys given to Peter

[Church_Militant]

Hmmm, Lessee, the Greek in the NT is singular when it says “you” in the passage about the keys, which proves that Jesus was indeed speaking to Cephas and not to the apostles as a whole. I don’t see the problem Edwin…I am of the opinion that whatever Jesus does and says is always right, whether it makes sense to me or not, so since Jesus did indeed give those keys and authority to Cephas, I have absolutely NO problem gettin’ in line behind the annointed of God just as King David talks about in 1st & 2nd Samuel.

If Jesus ordained that Peter lead His church, who am I to argure with Him? You can if you want to…
Pax vobiscum,

 

[edwinG]

Tom:

Too many points to cover in one post, sorry.
you’re again confusing impeccability with infallibility. The Church (Catholic Church) has never failed, however the leaders of His Church have often failed. They are humans, I think the fact that every one of His Apostles deserted Him, one even betrayed Him, and the leader, this Peter, even denied Him, yet to whom does He return? It is to these sinners, all of whom deserted Him. It is to these sinners He established His Church. It is to these sinners that He reveals all of the Scriptures. Yes, the people who run the Church have sinned, often quite horribly. This does not prove His Holy Catholic Church is incorrect, actually it proves it is led by the Holy Spirit, for if it were not it would have dissolved long ago.

Hi Tom,
Your loyalty is admirable.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
That name is spelt, J-e-s-u-s C-h-r-i-s-t
Not R-o-m-a-n C-a-t-h-o-l-ic.
Words are very powerful tools. Christ is the Word of God.
The Catholic Church has never failed. Ask millions of souls throughout history about the name, Catholic Church. If “name” means anything, and Christ says it does, the name Catholic Church does have things to answer for. And so do all denominal churches.
But His Church, His body, is blameless, sinless, infallible and love.If we live in Him, the Church (His body), we are sinless, and then can become a part of the living temple of God.
Think spiritual Tom.
Yes blessed are the feet which spread the word. Yes there has to be a visible church of men, but because it is of men, it is fallible. Look at history, the visible church is fallible. Yes the visible church endures because of the Holy Spirit, yes the visible church was split but this scattering was of God, to help the word penetrate. These denominations believe in Jesus, believe that He was sent by God, His only begotten Son. This is the work of the visible church, which is another thread, to preach the gospel, that men might believe and come to Christ. This is for us, not for God, that we work for Him, plant and reap. This is His wisdom. And we are His servants listening to the Holy Spirit and in obedience doing God’s work on earth, caring for the sinners, especially the children.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Church Militant:

Hmmm, Lessee, the Greek in the NT is singular when it says “you” in the passage about the keys, which proves that Jesus was indeed speaking to Cephas and not to the apostles as a whole. I don’t see the problem Edwin…I am of the opinion that whatever Jesus does and says is always right, whether it makes sense to me or not, so since Jesus did indeed give those keys and authority to Cephas, I have absolutely NO problem gettin’ in line behind the annointed of God just as King David talks about in 1st & 2nd Samuel.

If Jesus ordained that Peter lead His church, who am I to argure with Him? You can if you want to…
Pax vobiscum,

Hi Church Militant,
Thanks for your post. I am not disputing that Cephas was given authority. We are in agreement on this point.
But I see Christ leading the Church, in Him God has placed all authority. He is alive. We have a structure in the visible church for order, not infallibility. Christ uses those who follow the leading of the Holy Spirit to do His visible work here on earth. All of His work is not done by fire or rain coming down from heaven.I dont deny that one can follow passively and actively but those who follow actively do a lot more work for Him, and are more fruitful. Testimonies on this forum would indicate active following of the Holy Spirit. I want you all to participate in this glorious work and receive greater honor in heaven.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[Curridabat]

I was raised by Mennonites, but I knew that when Christ told Peter he was the rock upon which he would build his church he ment the Catholic church. We are the Church. The people who form the body. I think I must have been a closet Catholic. Thanks be to God, I finially made it home.

 

[TheGarg]

edwinG:

Is the pope filled with doubt, this may be an infallible teaching but this one, may be wrong but I will do it anyhow in a state of confusion. This I have trouble with Tom.
** The pope is or the pope isnt . To me He isnt ootherwise Christ could be dead because He is not needed.
** Walk in love
edwinG

If it wasn’t for these “popes” over the last 1900+ years, you would not even know about Jesus Christ, and would definately not have your bible that you cherish.

I just got done “debating” with this Doctor Doom fella on freeconservatives.com, and unlike him, at least you are respectful. But like him, not attitude-wise, but belief wise, you celebrate your own truth instead of the Truth Christ gave us.

I am not being mean so don’t take this the wrong way.
Every view, or interpretation, you have on “scripture” and the way things are is wrong…How can i know this???

They originate from YOU…you, like me, ARE fallible. We are not ROCKS or PILLARS and we will be forgotten through the ages. The CCC is infallible. It is the rock that we can turn to to be never changing, or contradicting.

I have yet to **grow **into the fullness of the Truth. The Truth is a constant, not some puzzle to be figured out. Why would Christ make it a puzzle. He didn’t. He established a way for that truth to go on After he ascended into Heaven. His Church.

The difference between you and I, a protestant and a Catholic, is that you have yet to discover the Truth revealed by Christ, since you have nothing to base it on, except for your limited experiance.

All your beliefs are not new, they come from the ideas of other men’s ideas created around ealry 1500. Ideas that allow YOU , the laymen, some control, or not to have to fully submit, to the authority of Christ’s Church.

Why do you resist His Church?..pride…control[still falls under pride].

You pick and choose through scripture, like every other protestant, till you come to a Truth that SUITS you. The original protestants have protestants. It will never stop untill all submit to the Truth, and stop coming up with thier own version.

If the Catholic Church were to dissappear tommorrow, how long do you think Christianity would last???

I wouldn’t give it more than a year. The dissent from the dissenters, who dissented would never cease until even the Name of Jesus would be fogotten, because someone would interperet it differnetly, get mad, and start their own “church”.

Sometimes the Truth is hard, and when It gets hard, I must change to suit the Truth, not change the Truth to suit me.

Peace of the Lord be with you!!!

 

[edwinG]

Catholic Dude:

I have no disagreement here. The problem that we are tying to get across is that its a jungle out there, (literally where you live), and **we need solid teachers **whom have had such authority passed on to them to teach us.

Hi Catholic Dude,
We have a teacher, Jesus Christ. He is fully alive and fully able to teach. He teaches me, ask and He will teach you. The work of the earthly church is to go out and give the gospel message so that people may believe. Of course the church can do many things to assist Christ. But the work of the earthly church is not to stand between God and man
14 15 you may indeed set as king over you him whom the LORD your God will choose.
. The bottom line here is that people need Leadership, not every man for himself working out his own personal beliefs, but a heirarchy, that ultimately comes down to the authority of one man, who in turn answers only to God. This king can make decisions on almost anything he wants, he is the king, yet he is not in that position to glorify himself, but to lead his people and keep them safe. All through the Bible there are leaders whom the people look to, they dont put themself in that position, but are chosen by God either directly or indirectly by someone whom God sent.
The King that they were to have doesnt get a free pass to go around an do evil, but instead he knows the rules/law (God makes sure everyone He picks has the ability and knowledge to do His Will), and has the authority to make decisions that are God backed as true and binding, especially for things not explicitly stated in the law, or need clarification. Even after King Saul, King David (and others) wrote things that were inspired by God and included in sacred scripture that we use today. They wrote these things with authority. It is a similar situation with the New Testament, Jesus picked out a few men and put them in charge, they knew the rules and what Christ expected, even if it took them a while to fully realize it themself. Jesus didnt abandon the world by appointing Apostles, He did so that we may have authorized people teach us, man to man, with God’s presece there the whole time. They were even authorized to write scripture which He inspired, which we use today. When things come up that need clarifying or guiding then we look to those leaders whom Jesus promised us would never lead us astray. Now that doesnt mean that they dont sin, but that His Church will always stand and be the pillar and foundation of truth, it will not lead people away from Him, but toward Him.

Hi Catholic Dude,
God talking to Samuel.
1Samuel 8:7 And the Lord told him; “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected but they have rejected me as their king.”
The punishment of rejecting God as their king and appointing a person in His place.
1 Samuel 12:14 If you fear the Lord and serve and obey Him and do not rebel against His commands and if BOTH you and the king who reigns over you follow the Lord your God-good. But if you do not obey the Lord and if you rebel against His commands, His hand will be against you, as it was against your fathers.
1 Samuel 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest now? I willl call upon the Lord to send thunder and rain. And you will relaize what an evil thing you did in the eyes of the Lord when you asked for a king.
18 Then Samuel called upon the Lord and that same day, the Lord sent thunder and rain. So all the people stood in awe of the Lord and of Samuel.
1 Samuel 12:25 Yet if you persist in doing evil, both you and your king will be swept away.

So not only is it a rejection of God, to have someone, anyone between Him and you but you imperil yourself because you are tied to his sin and he is tied to your sin. So in the Catholic Church you are tied to the sin of your popes and also the sins of the magisterium, at least and they to your sins. And you agree on the sins of at least some popes. You personally are tied to those popes sins plus.
Truly you are all a lot worse off. If you loved your pope etc, you would free him from your sins at least.
God has made it abundantly clear always that He wants a personal relationship with you. And people keep asking God for some one else. Christ is your only mediator but you wont even accept that.
Men dont work out their own personal beliefs if they put their trust in Christ, they have the Holy Spirit.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Curridabat:

I was raised by Mennonites, but I knew that when Christ told Peter he was the rock upon which he would build his church he ment the Catholic church. We are the Church. The people who form the body. I think I must have been a closet Catholic. Thanks be to God, I finially made it home.

Hi Curridabat,
Thanks for being a part of the post. Yes we who are in Christ are all building blocks of the temple of God, Jesus Christ the cornerstone, all the prophets and apostles being a part of the foundation.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

TheGarg:

If it wasn’t for these “popes” over the last 1900+ years, you would not even know about Jesus Christ, and would definately not have your bible that you cherish.

I just got done “debating” with this Doctor Doom fella on freeconservatives.com, and unlike him, at least you are respectful. But like him, not attitude-wise, but belief wise, you celebrate your own truth instead of the Truth Christ gave us.

I am not being mean so don’t take this the wrong way.
Every view, or interpretation, you have on “scripture” and the way things are is wrong…How can i know this???

They originate from YOU…you, like me, ARE fallible. We are not ROCKS or PILLARS and we will be forgotten through the ages. The CCC is infallible. It is the rock that we can turn to to be never changing, or contradicting.

I have yet to **grow **into the fullness of the Truth. The Truth is a constant, not some puzzle to be figured out. Why would Christ make it a puzzle. He didn’t. He established a way for that truth to go on After he ascended into Heaven. His Church.

The difference between you and I, a protestant and a Catholic, is that you have yet to discover the Truth revealed by Christ, since you have nothing to base it on, except for your limited experiance.

All your beliefs are not new, they come from the ideas of other men’s ideas created around ealry 1500. Ideas that allow YOU , the laymen, some control, or not to have to fully submit, to the authority of Christ’s Church.

Why do you resist His Church?..pride…control[still falls under pride].

You pick and choose through scripture, like every other protestant, till you come to a Truth that SUITS you. The original protestants have protestants. It will never stop untill all submit to the Truth, and stop coming up with thier own version.

If the Catholic Church were to dissappear tommorrow, how long do you think Christianity would last???

I wouldn’t give it more than a year. The dissent from the dissenters, who dissented would never cease until even the Name of Jesus would be fogotten, because someone would interperet it differnetly, get mad, and start their own “church”.

Sometimes the Truth is hard, and when It gets hard, I must change to suit the Truth, not change the Truth to suit me.

Peace of the Lord be with you!!!

Hi Garg,
No, I have not taken it the wrong way and thank you for the considertion. Your sincerity shows through.
Thank you also for reading the posts.
walk in love
edwinG

 

[edwinG]

Tom:

Sorry for pasting so much, but it was getting tiring answering points on what infallibility is NOT. Edwin, to make you feel better, I would have problems with infallibility also if it meant what you believed it meant.
May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you
Tom

Hi Tom,
What a marathon effort you have put in. Yes , I can understand what you are saying as you can understand what I am saying. You are a very loyal person Tom.
I think the real issue here is the role of the denominational church. Now we certainly differ on our expectations of the denominational church.
Many of the same issues would arise.
I will leave it to you, if you would like to start up a thread on the role of the denominational church since Christ.
Thanks again for your great contributions
walk in love
edwinG

 

[prodromos]

Church Militant:

Hmmm, Lessee, the Greek in the NT is singular when it says “you” in the passage about the keys, which proves that Jesus was indeed speaking to Cephas and not to the apostles as a whole.

If you understand the keys of the kingdom as being the authority to bind and loose as is the patristic concensus, then you cannot fail to see Christ giving this same authority to ALL the apostles in Matt 18:18, when “you” is spoken in the plural. If you understand the keys as being something else, then it is incumbant on you to define their meaning and show where the Fathers teach this meaning.

Christos Anesti! Christ is Risen!
John.

 

[prodromos]

TheGarg:

If it wasn’t for these “popes” over the last 1900+ years, you would not even know about Jesus Christ, and would definately not have your bible that you cherish.

Tsk tsk, so little faith in the Holy Spirit. See what damage that little “filioque” clause has done to your faith, subordinating the Holy Spirit to the point where He has been all but forgotten. Need you be reminded that it is the Holy Spirit who guides the Church into all truth, not the Pope. Need you be reminded that the promise of the Holy Spirit was given to the Church and not to an individual.

Christos Anesti! Christ is Risen!
John

 

[TheGarg]

prodromos:

Tsk tsk, so little faith in the Holy Spirit. See what damage that little “filioque” clause has done to your faith, subordinating the Holy Spirit to the point where He has been all but forgotten. Need you be reminded that it is the Holy Spirit who guides the Church into all truth, not the Pope. Need you be reminded that the promise of the Holy Spirit was given to the Church and not to an individual.

Christos Anesti! Christ is Risen!
John

Well the Holy Spirit sure didn’t guide anyone else but the Catholic Churches through the Popes as their leader…your point sir?

 

[silverknights]

**
**The Spirit of God present in the Church guarantees that the message given to men through Jesus Christ will never be lost, and that God’s people will not lose their way to the Kingdom. Surrounded and protected by this exceptional gift, the community of the elect must live and operate with fallibility. To understand this situation is liberation for us all. No one must pretend that his statements come straight from God. Rather he should submit everything he articulates to the good sense of the community, and ultimately to those who have the final authority to judge, namely, the college of the bishops and the Pope, so that what is missing in his vision could be completed by the ministry of the Church. Dialogue is possible and necessary precisely because we are fallible; otherwise the Church would be a resounding cacophony of final statements.

The Good News never promised that each of us or every freely associated group will have the power to articulate the final truth, but it promised that “in everything God works for good with those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose” ( Rom.8:28 ). A biblical blank check–God takes care of our well-meaning mistakes.**

**
Quoted from *STUDIES in the Spirituality of Jesuits Toward a theological Evaluation of Communal Discernment *by Ladislas Orsy,S.J.

I liked this text a lot, though I didnt mean to undermine the gift of discerning and preserving the fundamental and eternal truths of the faith entrusted to the Catholic Church in any way.However as Vatican II stressed, Its important to have a prudent yet dynamic attitude to the Church’s teaching on infallibility*.*

 

[silverknights]

**
III. THE INTERPRETATION OF THE HERITAGE OF FAITH

***The heritage of faith entrusted to the whole of the Church ***
The apostles entrusted the “Sacred deposit” of the faith (the depositum fidei),45 contained in Sacred Scripture and Tradition, to the whole of the Church. "By adhering to [this heritage] the entire holy people, united to its pastors, remains always faithful to the teaching of the apostles, to the brotherhood, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. So, in maintaining, practicing and professing the faith that has been handed on, there should be a remarkable harmony between the bishops and the faithful."46

***The Magisterium of the Church ***
"The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.
"Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48
**Mindful of Christ’s words to his apostles: “He who hears you, hears me”,49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms. **

The dogmas of the faith
The Church’s Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.
There is an organic connection between our spiritual life and the dogmas. Dogmas are lights along the path of faith; they illuminate it and make it secure. Conversely, if our life is upright, our intellect and heart will be open to welcome the light shed by the dogmas of faith.50
**The mutual connections between dogmas, and their coherence, can be found in the whole of the Revelation of the mystery of Christ.51 "In Catholic doctrine there exists an order or hierarchy of truths, since they vary in their relation to the foundation of the Christian faith."52 **

Quoted from the Catechism of the Catholic Church …to be contd…**

 

[silverknights]

…contd…from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

---

The supernatural sense of faith
All the faithful share in understanding and handing on revealed truth. They have received the anointing of the Holy Spirit, who instructs them53 and guides them into all truth.54
**"The whole body of the faithful. . . cannot err in matters of belief. This characteristic is shown in the supernatural appreciation of faith (sensus fidei) on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals."55 **
"By this appreciation of the faith, aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth, the People of God, guided by the sacred teaching authority (Magisterium),. . . receives. . . the faith, once for all delivered to the saints. . . The People unfailingly adheres to this faith, penetrates it more deeply with right judgment, and applies it more fully in daily life."56

***Growth in understanding the faith ***
**Thanks to the assistance of the Holy Spirit, the understanding of both the realities and the words of the heritage of faith is able to grow in the life of the Church: **
**- “through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts”;57 it is in particular “theological research [which] deepens knowledge of revealed truth”.58 **
**- “from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which [believers] experience”,59 the sacred Scriptures "grow with the one who reads them."60 **
- “from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth”.61
"It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls."62

---

 

[Church_Militant]

edwinG:

Hi Church Militant,
Thanks for your post. I am not disputing that Cephas was given authority. We are in agreement on this point.
But I see Christ leading the Church, in Him God has placed all authority. He is alive. We have a structure in the visible church for order, not infallibility. Christ uses those who follow the leading of the Holy Spirit to do His visible work here on earth. All of His work is not done by fire or rain coming down from heaven.I dont deny that one can follow passively and actively but those who follow actively do a lot more work for Him, and are more fruitful. Testimonies on this forum would indicate active following of the Holy Spirit. I want you all to participate in this glorious work and receive greater honor in heaven.
walk in love
edwinG

If it doesn’t include infallibility then there is no meaning to the promise that the gates of hell will not prevail then is there, and we are at the mercy of every wind of doctrine that has (and still does) blown through the world?
(rhetorical) Question: Doesn’t Our Lord use His people to lead His church just as He did in the NT?

In witnessing the myriad strange teachings of men that are prevalent around the world and especially here in the US. I have to rejoice that I am where I am by the grace of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Pax tecum,

 

[edwinG]

Church Militant:

If it doesn’t include infallibility then there is no meaning to the promise that the gates of hell will not prevail then is there, and we are at the mercy of every wind of doctrine that has (and still does) blown through the world?
(rhetorical) Question: Doesn’t Our Lord use His people to lead His church just as He did in the NT?

In witnessing the myriad strange teachings of men that are prevalent around the world and especially here in the US. I have to rejoice that I am where I am by the grace of God and the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Pax tecum,

Hi Church Militant,
The gates will not prevail.
This world we live in is under the control of the prince of darkness, satan. Everyone on earth is born to sin. One has to be born again, spiritually to be free of this world, yet live in it.
So as all who live here were under satan’s control at some time, we can envisage them as being locked in, but when a persons hears the Word, the gates dont keep him locked in, The gates will not prevail against the Word. We who hear the word and respond are not at the mercy of any wind of change, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. We may choose to disobey, that is our choice but we are not at the mercy of any wind of change. We also dont automatically lose all of our sinful nature. Christ in His wisdom, empowers us, bit by bit to shed , one at a time, the bondages of particular sins. It is not a Hey Presto, no more sin affair. We have to learn many things as we overcome sin my sin. Of course if we want to retain some sin, we wont invite Him in. We may idolise food so we wont invite Christ in to curb our eating. We then stay a victim to the desire for excess food, and this desire robs us of our joy and peace,all for the sake of a few moments of earthly pleasure.
Rhetorical Question. No, we do not lead the church. Christ is the Church, we follow Him by obedience to His word and by obedience to the Holy Spirit who leads us to Him. Obedience is the key and always has been the key and God has always wanted a personal relationship with each and every person, in the old testament and in the new.
The structure of the Roman Catholic Church means that you are all guilty of each others sins, popes,bishops and lay people etc and will suffer as a unit because you obey a head before Christ. How sad it is to think all those beautiful people here and elsewhere in the Roman Catholic Church will suffer the same as the most sinful Roman Catholic who has the same belief in the structure you have created.
Walk in love
edwinG

 

[TheGarg]

edwinG:

Hi Church Militant,
The gates will not prevail against the Word.

And where does it say this???

Matthew 16:17-19 (New International Version)

 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18**And I tell you that you are Peter,[a](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=16&verse=17&end_verse=19&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-23691a)] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades**("http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=16&verse=17&end_verse=19&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-23691b")] will not overcome it.**[c](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=16&verse=17&end_verse=19&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-23691c)] 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[d](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=16&verse=17&end_verse=19&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-23692d)] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[e](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=16&verse=17&end_verse=19&version=31&context=context#fen-NIV-23692e)] loosed in heaven."

Now I see where Jesus promised us that the gates of hell would not over come His Church, but I am at a loss where He promised that the gates or hell would not overcome “The Word”.

His Holy Catholic Church defends the Word, throught the ages, from those that would change it, and The Holy Spirit defends the Church, which is the only reason the His Church could have survived this long, and is still going strong.

your thoughts?

Peace of the Lord be with you!

 

[DustinsDad]

Interesting twist…a new one I haven’t heard before. Alas, you are lost from your opening premise:

edwinG:

These keys along with the authority to bind and loose which was given to all of the apostles was not the passing on of infallibility. Peter proved himself infallible after Christ died by playing the hypocrite and leading others away from the truth, damaging their faith. So that is not the answer.

First of all, Christ promised to give Peter the keys - future tense - he didn’t give 'em to Peter just then:
“I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” (Matt 16:19)
Secondly, Christ knew full well that Peter would stumble during the Lord’s suffering and crucifixion - but that he would repent, turn again to the Lord, and fufill one of the roles of the head apostle - to strenghten his brethren (the other apostles):
“Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again, strengthen your brethren.” (Luke 22:31-32)
**
Which is exactly what Peter did, and what his successor is still doing today in that church Christ established.

And finally, the mere fact that Peter stumbled doesn’t disprove infallibility - it merely proves that you don’t quite understand what the Catholic Church’s teaching is in this regard. It doesn’t mean sinlessness or “impeccability”:

(CCC 891) “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful - who confirms his brethren in the faith he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals. . . . The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council. When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,” and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions “must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.” This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.

Nowthen, given that your opening premise is in error - the rest of your somewhat interesting and novel theory crumbles. I’m sorry.

I cordially invite you to the fullness of truth found in the church Christ established.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[Catholic_Dude]

edwinG:

Hi Catholic Dude,
We have a teacher, Jesus Christ. He is fully alive and fully able to teach. He teaches me, ask and He will teach you. The work of the earthly church is to go out and give the gospel message so that people may believe. Of course the church can do many things to assist Christ. But the work of the earthly church is not to stand between God and man.

Nothing is standing between God and man. But man knows the truth about God from the messengers whom He sends. One of this biggest problems going on in the NT is the issue of people going around preaching things that were false, especially false Gospels: Gal1- 6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel-- 7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
Do you agree that this kind of talk and warning about false gospels and incorrect teachings happened all through the NT?
It should be clear we need men like St Paul to teach and guide us, St Paul isnt standing between God and man, on the contrary, he is building up all Christians using his gifts and authority to do so, furthering God’s plan of spreading the Gospel and living Christian lives.
Also not everything Christ said was easy to understand, thats why He had to explain to the apostles in private all the time. The Gospel writers learned this stuff from the Apostles who were there at the time. There were many important times when only Peter, James and John were with Jesus and the only way others would know about it was if P, J or J told them what happened.

God talking to Samuel.

Yes but long before Samuel, in the most sacred writings (ie The Law), God talks about this very situation which I quoted in Deuteronomy.

7 And the LORD said to Samuel, “Hearken to the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me from being king over them. 8 According to all the deeds which they have done to me, from the day I brought them up out of Egypt even to this day,** forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are also doing to you.** 9 Now then, hearken to their voice; only, you shall solemnly warn them, and show them the ways of the king who shall reign over them.”]
The punishment of rejecting God as their king and appointing a person in His place.

Here is the passge in context. The Jews were never looking to God in the first place, also ignoring the fact that Samuel was chosen by God to be the leader. They didnt make that connection, they were into what their neighbors were doing “forsaking me, serving other gods”. 19 But the people refused to listen to the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No! but we will have a king over us, 20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may govern us and go out before us and fight our battles.”
The real rejection was not that they wanted a king, but that they wanted a king ASIDE from God, they wanted God out of the picture!! A key verse is that they wanted a human to fight the battles, when they should have known God does the fighting.

There was no eternal punishment the way your making it sound.
The cost of having a king was listed in vv11-17, They were stupid in the fact that God was there the whole time, but they couldnt see that and wanted to be like the other guys. When the Jews had a King they were living their best years. If there was no King there would be no Psalms, Temple, Autonomy (from other countries), etc
God talked about that situation in Deuteronomy and made it out to be a successful institution IF they kept the laws. God even promised David that his lineage would be great, and as Christians we know what that meant. All through the OT there is someone on earth who is in charge, Samuel was in charge in this situation as God’s spokesman, do you agree?

1 Samuel 12:14 If you fear the Lord and serve and obey Him and do not rebel against His commands and if BOTH you and the king who reigns over you follow the Lord your God-good. But if you do not obey the Lord and if you rebel against His commands, His hand will be against you, as it was against your fathers.

So here it is, if they stay on the good path they will be fine.