The keys given to Peter

[Catholic_Dude]

1 Samuel 12:17 Is it not wheat harvest now? I willl call upon the Lord to send thunder and rain. And you will relaize what an evil thing you did in the eyes of the Lord when you asked for a king.
18 Then Samuel called upon the Lord and that same day, the Lord sent thunder and rain. So all the people stood in awe of the Lord and of Samuel.
1 Samuel 12:25 Yet if you persist in doing evil, both you and your king will be swept away.

1Sam11-13 But Saul said, “Not a man shall be put to death this day, for today the LORD has wrought deliverance in Israel.” 14 Then Samuel said to the people, “Come, let us go to Gilgal and there renew the kingdom.” 15 So all the people went to Gilgal, and there they made Saul king before the LORD in Gilgal. There they sacrificed peace offerings before the LORD, and there Saul and all the men of Israel rejoiced greatly.
The Promised Land would see its best years under a king, that doesnt sound like a curse to me. The problem was that the idea for a king came out of an agenda to take God out of the picture and be godless like their neighbors, God never left the picture, and even chose the king.

So not only is it a rejection of God, to have someone, anyone between Him and you but you imperil yourself because you are tied to his sin and he is tied to your sin.

You dont want to take this out of context, what the Jews were really in trouble for. About being tied to sins, that is how the old rules were, punishing the children for generations if someone in the family did evil.
We dont want to go down the path of confusing what the original post was about.There are serious differences between the OT and NT form of government. When I claimed that God favored a single leader over popular vote and I quoted that passage. There was never a time when the Jews didnt have a leader, I claimed a monarchy was the ideal, because the king is there to serve the people and yet give the glory to God. Same with the Apostles, they were in charge, (especially Peter), yet they were not to take the credit, but instead be doing God’s will.

So in the Catholic Church you are tied to the sin of your popes and also the sins of the magisterium, at least and they to your sins. And you agree on the sins of at least some popes. You personally are tied to those popes sins plus.

NO! You have lost sight of the picture. We arent operating under that system like the Jews were. For one we have a new forgiveness system. Your jumping to bogus claims. Both St Peter and St Paul were Church leaders, yet they sinned in their life, does that mean if someone was Baptized by them they take on part of that punishment P and P deserve or something? Thats the false logic your getting at.

Truly you are all a lot worse off. If you loved your pope etc, you would free him from your sins at least.
God has made it abundantly clear always that He wants a personal relationship with you. And people keep asking God for some one else. Christ is your only mediator but you wont even accept that.

Do you have children? You should abandon them quickly, because all they need is God, your getting in the way of God, right? NO! Dont dont abandon them! God is working through you to raise good Christian children, your not getting in the way, that is your duty! God does want a personal relationship with everyone, but not without a change on your part as well. One change on your part is to be Baptized as Jesus commanded:
Mark16:15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to the whole creation. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
You cant Baptize yourself, you need a human to do it. Thats what Jesus said. Even if that human has sinned and is not perfect, he can still do God’s will through the authority given him by Jesus himself.

Men dont work out their own personal beliefs if they put their trust in Christ, they have the Holy Spirit.

Are you saying that all you need is faith in Jesus, and after that you can do or say whatever you want? From the range of stuff I have read that sounds like thats what your getting at, it is a false gospel called “Faith Alone”.

 

[Church_Militant]

edwinG:

The structure of the Roman Catholic Church means that you are all guilty of each others sins, popes,bishops and lay people etc and will suffer as a unit because you obey a head before Christ. How sad it is to think all those beautiful people here and elsewhere in the Roman Catholic Church will suffer the same as the most sinful Roman Catholic who has the same belief in the structure you have created.
Walk in love
edwinG

Edwin, that is about the most anti-Catholic and bigoted bunk I’ve ever heard drivel out of your computer and I am deeply offended that you choose to take such a stand and then dress it up with your usual signature. You have chosen to buy into anti-Catholic rhetoric as opposed to reading and listening to what we really teach and believe.

“Walk in love”, my achin’ foot! You clearly don’t know a blessed thing about Catholicism despite your long tenure here among us. All our attempts at dialogue with you have proved to be a waste of time because you have neither read the tracts and articles that the ma(name removed by moderator)age library has made easily available or engage us to find out what we believe.

We didn’t “Create” a belief system…these are the teachings that Christ left with the apostles and have been the same for over 2,000 years, unlike your own pentecostal belief system which is less that 200 years old.

You are so off base in your remarks that I can’t believe that you have read even the first post from us since you came here…
Pax tecum,

 

[Tom]

Edwin, I’m sorry, I thought we were discussing infallibility, what in the world does this:

edwinG:

Your loyalty is admirable.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
That name is spelt, J-e-s-u-s C-h-r-i-s-t
Not R-o-m-a-n C-a-t-h-o-l-ic.

What does this have to do with infallibility? But to answer your post, it is loyalty to the Word of our Lord and savior, Jesus the Christ which by His authority is represented in the Catholic Church. No one ever made any question as to whether there is any other name by which there is salvation.
CCC:
169 Salvation comes from God alone; but because we receive the life of faith through the Church, she is our mother: “We believe the Church as the mother of our new birth, and not in the Church as if she were the author of our salvation.” Because she is our mother, she is also our teacher in the faith.
1741 Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. “For freedom Christ has set us free.” In him we have communion with the “truth that makes us free.” The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, “Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.” Already we glory in the “liberty of the children of God.”

I could continue to post the Catholic teaching but lately you don’t seem very interested in discussing.

May the peace and love of our Lord, Jesus the Christ, be with you
Tom

 

[vern_humphrey]

edwinG:

Hi Tom,
Your loyalty is admirable.
Acts 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.
That name is spelt, J-e-s-u-s C-h-r-i-s-t
Not R-o-m-a-n C-a-t-h-o-l-ic.

I love it!!

When dealing with claims like this, it always helps to go to the Bible and read the cited verse in context:

Acts 4,8-12:

8 Then Peter, filled with the holy Spirit, answered them, “Leaders of the people and elders: 9 If we are being examined today about a good deed done to a cripple, namely, by what means he was saved, 10 then all of you and all the people of Israel should know that it was in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarean whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead; in his name this man stands before you healed. 11 He is ‘the stone rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.’ 12 There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved.” There is Peter, the man with the keys, Christ’s Steward, the Rock on which Christ built His Church, acting as Christ commissioned him!http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[LSK]

EdwinG…remember - one does not spell it E-D-W-I-N-G but J-E-S-U-S C-H-R-I-S-T.

You are making some very definite statements - numerous ones - and that requires me to accept your interpretation and your premises. I prefer to look to the magisterium simply because these are people ordained in the Sacred Tradition and deeply schooled in reading and study of Holy Scripture.

For instance, your confusion regarding infallibility and impecability leads me to question your interpretation of situations outlined in Holy Scripture. Your pronouncement that St. Peter “played the hypocrite” is a good example - to me, and to my Church, he was not playing at anything: he was, like most humans, subject to poor judgement based on fear. This does not mean that, as Pope, he was not granted the gift of infallibility through the auspices of the Holy Spirit - it means that he needed a confessor, just like every Pope in the Church’s history.

I know of individual humans who have committed murder hiding behind their interpretation of HolyScripture or what THEY have determined is the Word of God. The Church, Protestant Denominations and/or two or three gathering “in His Name” are not the only groups that appear to have sanctioned murder. However, if one looks closely one can see that it was not the Church or Her many brothers and sisters that did so - it was done by people claiming the Church’s authority.

If I use your logic and extrapilate from it, all men would be condemned for any crimes ever committed by a man or a group of men against women, children or other’s deemed weaker than they- do you want to take that responsibility and be deemed irelevant as a result?

You have read a lot but your arguments require the acceptance of premises that are suspect. I am glad you are willing to engage - that means you are open to the Love of Christ and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Congratulations and keep reading…and at least you can use the fancy colors…I can’t even spell check on this thing!

 

[TheGarg]

I’d say edwin just had his A$$ handed to him on a platter…Sorry edwin and peace be to you! just ribbing you lol

 

[Exporter]

edwinG,

What has happened to you Brother? Usually you are somewhat acceptable, but the way you started your thread (this one) is jumble of factsand theories which resulted in heresy.

edwinG , I like you, but when you post unfactually I have to speak out. You wrote…“Hi,
These keys along with the authority to bind and loose which was given to all of the apostles was not the passing on of infallibility. Peter proved himself infallible after Christ died by playing the hypocrite and leading others away from the truth, damaging their faith. So that is not the answer.
I believe this is from the Holy Spirit.
The keys and authority were given so that Peter and the apostles would establish a societal law here on earth. The old testament law of an eye for an eye was given as a law of mercy to limit the degree of revenge taken against a person.”

---

edwinG. The underlined statement says Peter was a hypocrite afetr Christ’s death. You say Peter LEAD OTHERS** AWAY** FROM JESUS. You must be out on a limb, all by yourself. This is the first time I have heard that St. Peter lead people AWAY from Christ. I wonder why you would take this position.

The first sentance in bold type said that Jesus gave the authority to loose and bind to all of the Apostles. If you were to read Matthew 16 : v 17 - 19 you will see that Jesus is talking to Simon-Bar-Jonah (who was given the name Peter - Petros). Jesus used the pronound YOU. Jesus did not address “all the other aplostles”. Jesus was talking to Peter. Jesus had given the name of Peter to Simon Bar Jonah the first time Jesus saw him. In the Jewsish culture tto give a man a new name signified that the man had taken on a new job of great importance.

Jesus Christ DID NOT give new names to the other 11 Apostles, does that ring a bell? So the two sentances I questioned have flavored your entire post as an Anti-Catholic post at the least and an unfactual reguard for the Bible at the most. Of course you don’t have the advantage of Tradition, both oral and written nor the wisdom of the Magisterium being helped by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Curridabat]

I think you are all making this out to be WORK. What ever happened to FAITH? In the New Testament Christ tells Peter that he is THE ROCK UPON WHICH HE WILL BUILD HIS CHURCH! What more do you need? Please excuse me for shouting ,but good grief!! Believe, have faith, become as children in your inner selves. Children have faith without questioning or requiring proof. Remember Jesus to us to have faith like little children Don’t make it so hard.