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2ndGen
Guest
To whom did Jesus give them to?
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L
Lev23
Guest
2
2ndGen
Guest
Some Christians believe that Jesus gave The Keys of The Kingdom of Heaven to Peter’s confession.
M
mark_a
Guest
That can happen if one cherry-picks verses from the good book.
John Martignoni suggests reading a whole chapter or at least the verse before and after a proof text to help get the correct context.
I think its strange that Jesus would give the keys to the kingdom to a little rock or pebble or a female rock or a rockette or an insignificant stone.
F
FaithofAbraham
Guest
Or a black stone.
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2ndGen
Guest
Know what’s funny about the whole “little rock/big rock” comment? No phrases for little rock or big rock exist in the Koine Greek that the NT was written in. Only in modern Greek. So that would make that translation (in modern Greek) “unscriptural”.
Best one I heard to date?
“Peter is not the rock! Jesus was pointing to Himself when He said I will build My Church on this rock!”
And their so proud of themselves when they say that.
M
mark_a
Guest
I haven’t heard that one.
M
mark_a
Guest
I read somewhere that most Protestants considered Peter to be the rock. This of course, started to change about 150 years ago.Know what’s funny about the whole “little rock/big rock” comment? No phrases for little rock or big rock exist in the Koine Greek that the NT was written in. Only in modern Greek. So that would make that translation (in modern Greek) “unscriptural”.
Best one I heard to date?
“Peter is not the rock! Jesus was pointing to Himself when He said I will build My Church on this rock!”
And their so proud of themselves when they say that.
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2ndGen
Guest
Really?
Wow.
I’m going to look into that.
So the doctrine that Peter (I always chuckle when I say that because Peter=Pietra=Piedra=Rock literally) “wasn’t” the rock,
is a relatively new doctrine.
Again…Wow.
C
Claire_from_DE
Guest
Here’s another question; what are the keys? And who is the “you” Jesus was speaking to?
Even if the '‘rock’ was Peter’s confession of faith or Jesus himself, the keys were being given by Jesus to someone. That someone couldn’t have been Peter’s confession of faith or Jesus would have said, “I give it the keys…”
So whatever the rock was, can we agree that Jesus gave the metaphorical keys to Peter? If so, what was the significance of the keys?
If we can’t agree the keys were given to Peter, what is the significance of the keys??
Have most Catholic or Protestant biblical scholars come to a concensus on this?
Even if the '‘rock’ was Peter’s confession of faith or Jesus himself, the keys were being given by Jesus to someone. That someone couldn’t have been Peter’s confession of faith or Jesus would have said, “I give it the keys…”
So whatever the rock was, can we agree that Jesus gave the metaphorical keys to Peter? If so, what was the significance of the keys?
If we can’t agree the keys were given to Peter, what is the significance of the keys??
Have most Catholic or Protestant biblical scholars come to a concensus on this?
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2ndGen
Guest
The “keys”…the Davidic Keys…Christ’s authority.
(and no matter how any one slices it…Peter [for all those, “but is it scripture?ists”] means rock!)
(and no matter how any one slices it…Peter [for all those, “but is it scripture?ists”] means rock!)
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2ndGen
Guest
Where is “that” in The Bible?
Isaiah 22:22
“Then I will set the key of the house of David on his shoulder,
When he opens no one will shut,
When he shuts no one will open.”
Let us “compare”:
Matthew 16:19
“I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:
and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven;
and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
No mention of any confession in Isaiah…no mention of confession in Matthew…therefore, the belief that Jesus gave the keys of The Kingdom of Heaven to a confession (some words floating on the air) is “not” Biblical!
Isaiah 22:22
“Then I will set the key of the house of David on his shoulder,
When he opens no one will shut,
When he shuts no one will open.”
Let us “compare”:
Matthew 16:19
“I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:
and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven;
and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
No mention of any confession in Isaiah…no mention of confession in Matthew…therefore, the belief that Jesus gave the keys of The Kingdom of Heaven to a confession (some words floating on the air) is “not” Biblical!
A
Alexius
Guest
No, it hasn’t necessarily changed, they just don’t believe in Apostolic Succession. All the disciples received the authority, but Peter was the first. That is the Orthodox and Eastern view. Most Early Church Fathers believed that the “Rock” was Peter’s faith, not Peter himself. Alot of Protestants believe that, as do the Orthodox.
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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2ndGen
Guest
Which Church Fathers believed that Peter’s confession was The Rock that Jesus gave the Keys of The Kingdom of Heaven to?No, it hasn’t necessarily changed, they just don’t believe in Apostolic Succession. All the disciples received the authority, but Peter was the first. That is the Orthodox and Eastern view. Most Early Church Fathers believed that the “Rock” was Peter’s faith, not Peter himself. Alot of Protestants believe that, as do the Orthodox.
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
Remember, the Rock that Jesus was addressing was also given the Keys.
So would this mean that the keys were given to “words”?
Also, do you have any scriptural support for all the Apostles were given equal authority and if so, why was only one chosen to succeed Jesus as the shephard of His flock?
F
FaithofAbraham
Guest
Jesus has the keys, and Jesus is the cornerstone the builders rejected.
Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
And then he gives them to the two prophets like Moses and Elijah who punish the world which follows after Pharaoh and his false prophets.
Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
And then the people have a Christmas to celebrate their deaths.
Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
And then they are raised to life and taken to Heaven.
Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
And after that Jesus returns to kill Pharaoh and judge all the wicked people who worshiped him.
Revelation 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
And then he gives them to the two prophets like Moses and Elijah who punish the world which follows after Pharaoh and his false prophets.
Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
And then the people have a Christmas to celebrate their deaths.
Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
And then they are raised to life and taken to Heaven.
Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
And after that Jesus returns to kill Pharaoh and judge all the wicked people who worshiped him.
2
2ndGen
Guest
Ahhh, one of my favorite quotes to show The Catholic Church’s mention in Revelation!
See, at the time of judgement, Jesus get’s the keys back from Peter. Why? Because there are no more persons to be judged or taught by Peter. All are in the judgement (end times) days.
So Peter has fullfilled his obligation and now, the authority that Jesus gave to Peter in Matthew 16 and The Church that was founded upon Peter, is no longer needed on earth.
And The Catholic Church is the only Church that has existed since the time of Christ. No other church could’ve received the keys.
And Peter is historically known to have only founded one Church…so The Catholic Church is the one that Jesus referred to as (if you were to actually use the complete passage and not just part of it):
Revelation 3:
12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith to the churches.
He’s addressing The Catholic Church here…the only Church founded by The Apostle Peter…the only person on earth that Jesus gave The Keys To The Kingdom of Heaven.
J
japhy
Guest
No, you’re being daft. Jesus said “I will give you the keys”, so he is speaking to a person, regardless of what he meant by “upon this rock”.
As for the ECFs, Augustine in his “retractions” offered that the rock needn’t necessarily be Peter (as he had previously written) but could be the profession of faith. Here’s an overview.
P
paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
I like this interpretition; to whom does it belong originally?
This would be then according to :
1 Corinthians 10 DR
4 And all drank the same spiritual drink; (and they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ.)
Thanks
P
paarsurrey
Guest
Hi
A letter written by Ignatius to Christians in Smyrna [1] **around 106 **is the earliest surviving witness to the use of the term “Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 8).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic#History_of_usage
According to wikipedia, the Catholic Church was founded and named as such around 106; how would you reconcile it , please?
Thanks
2
2ndGen
Guest
Well, you and I definately agree on point one (who got the keys), but I said that because if Jesus was referring to Peter’s confession as the rock that he was building His Church upon, then when does Jesus switch back to Peter?
See my point?
Jesus would have to say this:
I’m changing your name to a rock
I am going to build My Church on your words
But you’re the one that I’m going to give authority to
You see?
There’s no way for anybody to make that assertion.
I always thought of the many ways that rock could be interpreted and Augustine was right, it could be interpreted as what Peter said, but then again, it could also be interpreted as if Jesus was literally talking about the very ground He was standing on (if He had been standing on a large boulder or something).
See, to believe something in scripture, it has to conform with it’s references in other passages. Since the teaching or belief that one’s confession is sufficient for Jesus to build a Church upon, then that one single solitary belief is unique and cannot be substantiated by other verses.
And, it would be completely taking it out of the context in Isaiah and Revelations. It’s like saying that this (His discussion with Peter) was the moment that Isa & Rev spoke about, but with one unique detail that wasn’t part of it’s original prophecy in Isa and wasn’t mentioned in retrospect in Rev.
So, it being based upon Peter’s confession is a personal interpretion of the reader which to be honest, only a relatively few Christians believe in where as the overwhelming majority of The Body of Christ see the verse for what it is…
…Jesus called Simon “rock” (aka, Peter).
And the Christian belief that Peter would go on to lead The Church is sufficiently supported throughtout the text of Scripture.
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