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gracepoole
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:sad_yes:Many young Catholics feel that they have been denied an inheritance that was rightly theirs. They have had to reassemble piecemeal something that should have been handed to them intact.
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PaulfromIowa
Guest
The kids are old rite? Not really. In the Americas, at least, the number of Catholics attending the traditional Latin Mass, even where available, is less than one percent of total Mass attendance. I think that it may be correct to say that seminarians are “more traditional” than many of their elders. However, that does not mean a preference for the Latin Mass. The Latin-only priestly groups remain very small as a percentage of total priests. The author mentions the situation in France. The fact that the Church is in a state of grave crisis in several European countries has little to do with the modern vs. old Mass.
In short, all orthodox Catholics are traditional, but traditional does not mean attached to the Latin Mass. I mean no offense by that, I sometimes attend the TLM Mass fifteen miles from my home. They are a great group, albeit small.
In short, all orthodox Catholics are traditional, but traditional does not mean attached to the Latin Mass. I mean no offense by that, I sometimes attend the TLM Mass fifteen miles from my home. They are a great group, albeit small.
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johnnyc176
Guest
Lol…sure.I mean no offense by that, I sometimes attend the TLM Mass fifteen miles from my home.
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reggieM
Guest
That’s true. First, there is a grave crisis. Many folks here don’t want to see or admit it. Second, the causes are complex and not reducible to that one thing. But the key point in the article, and I’ve seen this explained with data elsewhere is this:The author mentions the situation in France. The fact that the Church is in a state of grave crisis in several European countries has little to do with the modern vs. old Mass.
The EF priestly communities are growing with young priests. Ordinations for the OF are shrinking (in France, anyway). This may not seem significant since, as you said, the TLM support is so small. However, Catholics will go where the priest is. If there’s only a TLM available, Catholics will go there for Mass - they have to. So, the situation does change over time.In France, in 20 years’ time a majority of priests will celebrate exclusively the traditional Latin mass.
All orthodox Catholics are traditional since they adhere to the Tradition of the Church, yes. However, Catholics often have an option about what to believe, how to act and what to think. When a Catholic encounters an optional scenario - the traditional Catholic will always favor (not always choose, but just tend towards) the traditional (lower ‘t’) option - the time-honored Catholic concept, thought, practice.In short, all orthodox Catholics are traditional, but traditional does not mean attached to the Latin Mass.
A traditional Catholic reveres the Catholic heritage and past that has been handed down. This is much different from the modern Catholic - who may be orthodox- but who may (and often does) ridicule or even despise good aspects of the Catholic past and does not revere them. This could include even an irreverence towards saints, sacred art, spiritual teachings, pastoral guidance - many things. The modern Catholic judges everything from the modern perspective, thinking that contemporary ideas are always better than the past. Often, no effort is made to understand the people and ideas of our Catholic history. Secular sciences are upheld as superior to spiritual wisdom that was gained through much sacrifice and prayer in the past.
So, yes - every Catholic who adheres to the teaching of the Magisterium is a traditional Catholic in a certain way. But in another sense - no. In fact, Catholics who may be 100% orthodox can rip apart and destroy the Catholic tradition of our heritage without even caring about what they’re doing, leaving behind just a shell of the Faith - only the “minimum of what we need to believe”.
I see that here on CAF all the time.
But a traditional Catholic in the fuller sense realizes that the “unessential” heritage of Catholic tradition actually supports, fosters, builds and protects the Faith. Stripping all of that away, as we have mostly done in the modern age, leaves the Catholic Faith vulnerable and exposed to errors and dangers, even though the “mandatory teachings” are preserved. I believe we can see the results of that stripping down the Faith all over the world today.
Yes, some modern revisions and reforms have proven to be good. I’m not condemning it all. There is a certain prudential judgement needed. But let’s just say, many changes in the Church in contemporary times were done without good reasoning, argumentation or justification - and much of this has left the Church weaker in the face of secular and other hostilities.
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grannymh
Guest
Personally, I believe that it is Traditional Catholicism which will hold the fort.
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Samuel_Mary
Guest
I don’t believe mass defections to Vetus Ordo parishes or societies of apostolic life will happen, although I acknowledge its steady (not exponential) growth and its higher-than-anticipated popularity among the young.
As a liturgical Ratzingerian if you will, or a liturgical conservative within the context of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, I am very encouraged by this nonetheless.
The far-fetched restoration of the Vetus Ordo as the sole form of the Roman Rite is not going to happen, contrary to the dreams of the trads, but for us semi-trads the real story is how the Vetus ordo is serving as a sort of ‘benchmark’ forming young people’s expectations of the liturgy, which they are taking back to their Ordinary Form parishes. Liturgically ‘liberal’ Catholic commentators have been among the first to acknowledge this phenomenon, though lamenting rather than celebrating it of course.
The normalisation and mainstreaming of the Vetus Ordo and its attendant aesthetic, ten years on from Summorum Pontificum, is a big part - though not the only factor - in why young Priests and laity of the generation born under JPII have embraced and recovered tradition.
When you see a young Priest wearing the cassock and/or biretta, chanting EP1 almost exclusively at Sunday Masses, having the Marian antiphon sung after Mass in Latin, when I see the young teenagers in my parish mostly receiving on the tongue; all these little touches, these individual and subtle re-connections with Catholic history, that is the real ‘reform of the reform’.
It cannot easily be declared impossible by top-down, even recent ‘magisterial’ pronouncements, because it is not top-down in nature, but bottom-up. It occurs *within *the current rubrics and requires little or nothing in the way of ‘hard’ reform. In other words it doesn’t require permission, and it doesn’t happen in a militant or forceful way, but gradual and organic.
It is the spiritual destiny our generation. The Traditional Latin Mass is not in itself, sorry to the traditionalists - the primary ‘end’ desired by all this. It has, however, served well as a catalyst, and an ongoing driver (and is a beautiful form of the Mass which I enjoy occasionally, don’t get me wrong).
At any rate once this unofficial ‘reform’ is more realised, in the next ten to twenty years as the JPII babies gain more influence and the Spirit of VII generation are less of a plurality, I expect interest in the Vetus Ordo to taper off a bit - since a more traditional and reverent Ordinary Form Mass, which is more in continuity with 1,970 years of prior Catholic tradition, will be the norm, or at least significantly more common. This would make the Vetus Ordo less necessary both as an escape from the now-dying out folk/guitar Masses, and as a ‘political statement’
So…the kids are Old Rite? Not entirely. A few are devotedly Old Rite, but a better description is that the Old Rite has played an important role in driving and informing what we are trying to do within the New.
As a liturgical Ratzingerian if you will, or a liturgical conservative within the context of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, I am very encouraged by this nonetheless.
The far-fetched restoration of the Vetus Ordo as the sole form of the Roman Rite is not going to happen, contrary to the dreams of the trads, but for us semi-trads the real story is how the Vetus ordo is serving as a sort of ‘benchmark’ forming young people’s expectations of the liturgy, which they are taking back to their Ordinary Form parishes. Liturgically ‘liberal’ Catholic commentators have been among the first to acknowledge this phenomenon, though lamenting rather than celebrating it of course.
The normalisation and mainstreaming of the Vetus Ordo and its attendant aesthetic, ten years on from Summorum Pontificum, is a big part - though not the only factor - in why young Priests and laity of the generation born under JPII have embraced and recovered tradition.
When you see a young Priest wearing the cassock and/or biretta, chanting EP1 almost exclusively at Sunday Masses, having the Marian antiphon sung after Mass in Latin, when I see the young teenagers in my parish mostly receiving on the tongue; all these little touches, these individual and subtle re-connections with Catholic history, that is the real ‘reform of the reform’.
It cannot easily be declared impossible by top-down, even recent ‘magisterial’ pronouncements, because it is not top-down in nature, but bottom-up. It occurs *within *the current rubrics and requires little or nothing in the way of ‘hard’ reform. In other words it doesn’t require permission, and it doesn’t happen in a militant or forceful way, but gradual and organic.
It is the spiritual destiny our generation. The Traditional Latin Mass is not in itself, sorry to the traditionalists - the primary ‘end’ desired by all this. It has, however, served well as a catalyst, and an ongoing driver (and is a beautiful form of the Mass which I enjoy occasionally, don’t get me wrong).
At any rate once this unofficial ‘reform’ is more realised, in the next ten to twenty years as the JPII babies gain more influence and the Spirit of VII generation are less of a plurality, I expect interest in the Vetus Ordo to taper off a bit - since a more traditional and reverent Ordinary Form Mass, which is more in continuity with 1,970 years of prior Catholic tradition, will be the norm, or at least significantly more common. This would make the Vetus Ordo less necessary both as an escape from the now-dying out folk/guitar Masses, and as a ‘political statement’
So…the kids are Old Rite? Not entirely. A few are devotedly Old Rite, but a better description is that the Old Rite has played an important role in driving and informing what we are trying to do within the New.
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pianistclare
Guest
Anyone who believes that watching a priest pray the Mass with gloves on and in a language that they don’t speak is somehow more appealing to young people likely has never actually worked with young people.
Young people are very interested in the faith, and guess what? We DO teach them that the Mass is a Sacrifice. The Sacrifice of the Mass. Yes, that’s what it is called in textbooks, LT, and classrooms everywhere. You have to GET the kids to class and Mass in the first place though.
The reason why youth is not on their knees is not that education is bad. It’s because their parents won’t bring them, not because there’s not enough incense.
Talk to people about attending Mass and obeying the Commandments. Have THAT talk.
It’s lovely for those who want it desperately, we get it. Really. Go for it. Encourage those parishes. Support them with your $$$ so they can continue.
But it’s not a CURE for what is going on in the church.
Saying it 1000 times is not going to make it happen.
Young people are very interested in the faith, and guess what? We DO teach them that the Mass is a Sacrifice. The Sacrifice of the Mass. Yes, that’s what it is called in textbooks, LT, and classrooms everywhere. You have to GET the kids to class and Mass in the first place though.
The reason why youth is not on their knees is not that education is bad. It’s because their parents won’t bring them, not because there’s not enough incense.
Talk to people about attending Mass and obeying the Commandments. Have THAT talk.
It’s lovely for those who want it desperately, we get it. Really. Go for it. Encourage those parishes. Support them with your $$$ so they can continue.
But it’s not a CURE for what is going on in the church.
Saying it 1000 times is not going to make it happen.
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StGerardMajella
Guest
I generally disagree. At least what I have seen firsthand and statistically, the Latin Mass is very, very popular, and growing by leaps and bounds. In my Archdiocese, for example, we are seeing several parishes celebrating the Latin Mass exclusively compared to a decade ago.The kids are old rite? Not really. In the Americas, at least, the number of Catholics attending the traditional Latin Mass, even where available, is less than one percent of total Mass attendance. I think that it may be correct to say that seminarians are “more traditional” than many of their elders. However, that does not mean a preference for the Latin Mass. The Latin-only priestly groups remain very small as a percentage of total priests.
Seminaries that train in the Latin Rite exclusively cannot keep up with demand. It will be a slow process, but in the decade since the Motu Proprio liberalized the Latin Mass, the growth has been nothing short of phenomenal. This is especially true with very large Catholic families with young children. The long-term trajectory has a steep growth curve.
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reggieM
Guest
That’s a very important point. We have several families with more than 8 children each. And many more with 4, 5, 6 … when we do the math and look at the long-term, then there is quite a big impact.This is especially true with very large Catholic families with young children. The long-term trajectory has a steep growth curve.
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OraLabora
Guest
One of the fastest growing, most dynamic communities in France is the communauté Saint-Martin. Latin, Gregorian chant, and a wonderful Latin-French antiphonary, all in the Ordinary Form.
They have a large seminary, and they staff parishes in threes: three priests per parish, to break the sense of isolation that no doubt contributed to some extent to the sexual crisis with priests.
They embrace the true spirit of the council: liturgical renewal while preserving the rich traditional patrimony of chant handed down to us over the centuries.
As for the article’s comments on monastics, I see healthy interest by young people equally in monasteries of either form. The mother abbey of ours, in France, is exclusively OF, but Latin and the original Benedictine schema for the Divine Office. Ours uses a newer schema with all 150 psalms in a week, but Latin for Lauds and Vespers, and Mass, all in the OF. The young monks have no interest other than continuing in this way.
FWIW, I chant the LOTH daily in Latin using the St Martin antiphonary, or sometimes in the Monastic Rite using the Solesmes antiphonary.
But to someone on this thread insists on labelling me a liberal, LOL!
They have a large seminary, and they staff parishes in threes: three priests per parish, to break the sense of isolation that no doubt contributed to some extent to the sexual crisis with priests.
They embrace the true spirit of the council: liturgical renewal while preserving the rich traditional patrimony of chant handed down to us over the centuries.
As for the article’s comments on monastics, I see healthy interest by young people equally in monasteries of either form. The mother abbey of ours, in France, is exclusively OF, but Latin and the original Benedictine schema for the Divine Office. Ours uses a newer schema with all 150 psalms in a week, but Latin for Lauds and Vespers, and Mass, all in the OF. The young monks have no interest other than continuing in this way.
FWIW, I chant the LOTH daily in Latin using the St Martin antiphonary, or sometimes in the Monastic Rite using the Solesmes antiphonary.
But to someone on this thread insists on labelling me a liberal, LOL!
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Jerome1974
Guest
" I don’t mind other [forms of the mass]
That’s fine, I know them all pretty well
But I know sometimes I must get out in the light
Better leave [it] behind with the kids, they’re alright
The kids are alright "
I’m 43, as my user name suggests, so I don’t know where I fit in on that spectrum. I will however say that when I was a young Catholic in the 80’s, I thought it was actually rad the very few times I saw a priest in a cassock and it would have been totally rad to see a monk in a cowl. I only ever saw that once in my life, though, I think in 2005. I’m going to search for one of these masses in my diocese. True, it may not be for everyone any more than “mass” at an undisclosed parish in 1999 was for me.
I know I’m taking John 14:2 out of context, but I think that such diversity is a good thing.
“Liberals have reason to be glad: Francis has shown that he is sympathetic to their desire for a liturgy that feels more like a communal meal than an ancient sacrifice. But does Francis’s declaration mean that after millennia of development liturgical evolution has arrived at a final state and now must stop?”
That’s fine, I know them all pretty well
But I know sometimes I must get out in the light
Better leave [it] behind with the kids, they’re alright
The kids are alright "
I’m 43, as my user name suggests, so I don’t know where I fit in on that spectrum. I will however say that when I was a young Catholic in the 80’s, I thought it was actually rad the very few times I saw a priest in a cassock and it would have been totally rad to see a monk in a cowl. I only ever saw that once in my life, though, I think in 2005. I’m going to search for one of these masses in my diocese. True, it may not be for everyone any more than “mass” at an undisclosed parish in 1999 was for me.
I know I’m taking John 14:2 out of context, but I think that such diversity is a good thing.
“Liberals have reason to be glad: Francis has shown that he is sympathetic to their desire for a liturgy that feels more like a communal meal than an ancient sacrifice. But does Francis’s declaration mean that after millennia of development liturgical evolution has arrived at a final state and now must stop?”
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reggieM
Guest
At one time I recall hearing from priests and bishops that nobody was interested in the old rite. Then they said it was just old people who couldn’t adjust to the new. So, yes - there is a higher-than-anticipated popularity among the young and that has provided a lot of vitality for the EF communities around the world. The FSSP had to build a new seminary in the U.S. and it’s is already filled to capacity now.I don’t believe mass defections to Vetus Ordo parishes or societies of apostolic life will happen, although I acknowledge its steady (not exponential) growth and its higher-than-anticipated popularity among the young.
I’m sympathetic with your interests and hopes, but I’d also be a bit concerned about the direction Pope Francis seems to be moving in. It does not seem to go towards Pope Benedict’s hope of a reform of the reform.As a liturgical Ratzingerian if you will, or a liturgical conservative within the context of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, I am very encouraged by this nonetheless.
True - that has been a success story.The normalisation and mainstreaming of the Vetus Ordo and its attendant aesthetic, ten years on from Summorum Pontificum, is a big part - though not the only factor - in why young Priests and laity of the generation born under JPII have embraced and recovered tradition.
The liturgy is not an end in itself anyway. In this case, the TLM has a formative role as you mentioned, and this extends to mental, spiritual and cultural formation as people are connected with the ancient prayers and liturgical traditions.It is the spiritual destiny our generation. The Traditional Latin Mass is not in itself, sorry to the traditionalists - the primary ‘end’ desired by all this.
You may be right - none of us knows for sure. But as above, I don’t think we could be as confident in your scenario given Pope Francis’ view on the liturgy and how he sees the future of it.This would make the Vetus Ordo less necessary both as an escape from the now-dying out folk/guitar Masses, and as a ‘political statement’
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reggieM
Guest
That’s a great idea - I hope you do that!I’m going to search for one of these masses in my diocese.
Feel free to post here on your experience as you do. There are also a few threads around with tips for newcomers to the traditional Latin Mass.
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OraLabora
Guest
Where I live, the EF being generally unavailable, this role has been fulfilled by two Benedictine monasteries of thé Solesmes Congregation, one of men, one of women. Both use large doses of Gregorian chant, and all the liturgical pomp for which Solesmes is reknowned. Both use Latin for the Divine Office: the men at Lauds and Vespers, the women all the time.So…the kids are Old Rite? Not entirely. A few are devotedly Old Rite, but a better description is that the Old Rite has played an important role in driving and informing what we are trying to do within the New.
No surprise, the Mass is full every Sunday, and in summer, even on weekdays especially for the men who are located in a resort area.
They have spawned several Gregorian scholas, I’ve been a member of one for 15 years now. Our season resumes Sept. 8 after our summer recess.
Here is the crucial point: in the Benedictine tradition of 100% faithfulness to the Holy Father, both houses were quick to adapt their liturgies to the New Rite, and both now use the OF 1974 Graduale Romanum for their OF Masses.
In short, I find the article makes gross generalizations and exaggerations especially concerning monastics. In the monasteries I’m familiar with here and in Europe, there is no “trend” other than to follow in the traditions of their houses, which have all embraced the OF but never abandoned their tradition of liturgical aesthetics.
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OraLabora
Guest
I prefer to take his words at face value. He said “irreversible”. That does not mean no change, but rather no wholesale going back to the Old Rite. It does not mean the old cannot inform the new… the Benedictines have known that and doing that since the Council!I’m sympathetic with your interests and hopes, but I’d also be a bit concerned about the direction Pope Francis seems to be moving in. It does not seem to go towards Pope Benedict’s hope of a reform of the reform.
It does not mean the liturgy cannot be reformed going forward either, and that those reforms cannot borrow elements from the past; after all this is what the New Rite did!
But let’s be clear, the Holy Father is a Jesuit, and liturgy is not a huge part of their tradition, and that’s OK.
We still have monastics for whom liturgy IS their tradition, and in fact the center of their charism. The Rule of St Benedict devotes some 12 of 73 chapters to liturgy, at least the Divine Office.
They are still part of the Church and will continue to be fonts of liturgical inspiration.
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Samuel_Mary
Guest
If we were looking towards actual top-down reforms such as Cardinal Sarah’s apparently desired combination old-new calendar and Vatican-mandated shift to ad orientem, then of course nothing of the kind is likely to happen under Francis.You may be right - none of us knows for sure. But as above, I don’t think we could be as confident in your scenario given Pope Francis’ view on the liturgy and how he sees the future of it.
But as I said, what is changing is very much at parish-level, and below that at individual level. Those are the primary drivers of this ‘renewal’ (better word than reform) and I think they are ongoing and already in motion, and would be difficult to stop with centralised heavy-handedness. In that sense, the loose rubrics of the Ordinary Form that opened it up to the worst of the 70’s and 80’s irreverances, can conversely bring about its redemption and full realization as a natural continuation of Catholic traditional liturgy.
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Casilda
Guest
Of the EF masses I have attended I am usually the oldest one (over 50). They are overrun by 30-somethings and young families and lots and lots of children. The parishes are very much alive with activity and life. The hope of the future.That’s a very important point. We have several families with more than 8 children each. And many more with 4, 5, 6 … when we do the math and look at the long-term, then there is quite a big impact.
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reggieM
Guest
Again, that seems true and a good scenario. We don’t know what will happen since if it is a bottom-up development, we did have the leadership of Pope Benedict who not only taught clearly but modeled himself a certain liturgical approach. That has taken hold, as you said. But will the current papacy model a different liturgical style, and even perhaps show some hostility towards the traditional forms? Some say that could happen. I do notice also an interest from some Catholics in a more evangelical-Christian (mega-church) styled liturgical form, even with rock band accompaniment. But in any case, you’re probably safe to say that this younger generation of priests will seek greater continuity with the tradition of the past.If we were looking towards actual top-down reforms such as Cardinal Sarah’s apparently desired combination old-new calendar and Vatican-mandated shift to ad orientem, then of course nothing of the kind is likely to happen under Francis.
But as I said, what is changing is very much at parish-level, and below that at individual level. Those are the primary drivers of this ‘renewal’ (better word than reform) and I think they are ongoing and already in motion, and would be difficult to stop with centralised heavy-handedness. In that sense, the loose rubrics of the Ordinary Form that opened it up to the worst of the 70’s and 80’s irreverances, can conversely bring about its redemption and full realization as a natural continuation of Catholic traditional liturgy.
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Samuel_Mary
Guest
I’m sure the Oratorians are a part of it in my area too. They celebrate a very reverent and traditional solemn Mass (OF) as the weekly pinnacle of congregation and parish life., along with Latin vespers (only on Sundays unfortunately), Benediction and so forth.Where I live, the EF being generally unavailable, this role has been fulfilled by two Benedictine monasteries of thé Solesmes Congregation, one of men, one of women. Both use large doses of Gregorian chant, and all the liturgical pomp for which Solesmes is reknowned. Both use Latin for the Divine Office: the men at Lauds and Vespers, the women all the time.
No surprise, the Mass is full every Sunday, and in summer, even on weekdays especially for the men who are located in a resort area.
They have spawned several Gregorian scholas, I’ve been a member of one for 15 years now. Our season resumes Sept. 8 after our summer recess.
Here is the crucial point: in the Benedictine tradition of 100% faithfulness to the Holy Father, both houses were quick to adapt their liturgies to the New Rite, and both now use the OF 1974 Graduale Romanum for their OF Masses.
In short, I find the article makes gross generalizations and exaggerations especially concerning monastics. In the monasteries I’m familiar with here and in Europe, there is no “trend” other than to follow in the traditions of their houses, which have all embraced the OF but never abandoned their tradition of liturgical aesthetics.
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