The Kids Are Old Rite

[Samuel_Mary]

Again, that seems true and a good scenario. We don’t know what will happen since if it is a bottom-up development, we did have the leadership of Pope Benedict who not only taught clearly but modeled himself a certain liturgical approach. That has taken hold, as you said. But will the current papacy model a different liturgical style, and even perhaps show some hostility towards the traditional forms? Some say that could happen.

Well you could say Francis’s attitude as one of hostility, but I don’t think it’s entirely clear that the hostility is to small-t tradition as a whole, rather than simply to the Vetus Ordo and to communities/Catholics that want it exclusively. After all Francis is a fan of classical music and referred to ‘practices that disfigure the liturgy’. I don’t imagine he’s on the same page as Benedict for one moment, but I also don’t think he’s an avowed enemy of* anything and everything* that looks like traditional Catholic liturgical praxis or aesthetic. Francis’s clear agenda is a commitment to the reforms of VII first and foremost, but what that actually means in practice can be a highly nebulous thing and so what happens on the ground is most important in any case.

But you’re right, anything can happen, our quiet revolution could get halted and banal/profane liturgy could have a second wind in the coming years instead. In twenty years time we could end up with Deaconesses leading the congregation in a clap-along rendition of ‘Joy, Joy, Joy deep down in my heart’ being the normative Catholic experience. What would I do then? Bunker down in the FSSP and admit I was naive, optimistic and wrong, I guess.

 

[reggieM]

Well you could say Francis’s attitude as one of hostility, but I don’t think it’s entirely clear that the hostility is to small-t tradition as a whole, rather than simply to the Vetus Ordo and to communities/Catholics that want it exclusively. After all Francis is a fan of classical music and referred to ‘practices that disfigure the liturgy’. I don’t imagine he’s on the same page as Benedict for one moment, but I also don’t think he’s an avowed enemy of* anything and everything* that looks like traditional Catholic liturgical praxis or aesthetic. Francis’s clear agenda is a commitment to the reforms of VII first and foremost, but what that actually means in practice can be a highly nebulous thing and so what happens on the ground is most important in any case.

That’s good to hear. I don’t really know what the Pope is thinking on these matters except for little snippets and then commentary about those snippets. But I was more deeply involved in Pope Benedict’s liturgical views and read his works on them. I also don’t follow what is going on in the OF either - it’s not my Sunday liturgy (I attend weekday OF’s but that’s a different thing). I hear from some that it’s moving away from traditional forms, and from others like you - that it’s moving towards. For me, most of this topic on the liturgy is centered on what happens in seminary formation. For the lay faithful like myself - I can’t do anything much except vote with my feet and I do that with support of the EF. So, the quiet revolution will be affected by the young priests and the kind of liturgical formation they get also.

 

[Samuel_Mary]

That’s good to hear. I don’t really know what the Pope is thinking on these matters except for little snippets and then commentary about those snippets. But I was more deeply involved in Pope Benedict’s liturgical views and read his works on them. I also don’t follow what is going on in the OF either - it’s not my Sunday liturgy (I attend weekday OF’s but that’s a different thing). I hear from some that it’s moving away from traditional forms, and from others like you - that it’s moving towards. For me, most of this topic on the liturgy is centered on what happens in seminary formation. For the lay faithful like myself - I can’t do anything much except vote with my feet and I do that with support of the EF. So, the quiet revolution will be affected by the young priests and the kind of liturgical formation they get also.

I guess a lot depends on people’s locale. I’m quite a parish-hopper within my local area, and I see a clear trend towards tradition in five or six different local churches. Someone else might have a very different experience in their area, but then who knows, if they were living thirty miles to the south, they might again have an experience closer to mine. The very nature of a process that is both generational and bottom-up means it can never be linear.

But yes, all we can do is vote with our feet, make our feelings respectfully known in-parish where applicable, and ‘‘evangelise’’ online by engaging persuasively and respectfully.

 

[reggieM]

I like that idea - and I wish it was true,

But the minority rite does suffer from threats of being wiped out since only a rare few bishops take active steps to preserve or foster it. The survival and growth of the EF has come entirely from painful “warfare” to this point. Pope Benedict offered a marvelous blessing with his document, but even then - hostility remains, there are threats and EF communities always have to compete for respect, resources, availability and many other basic sorts of things in the diocese.
The fact that still not every Catholic has reasonable access to the EF is evidence of the problem. I believe Pope Benedict wanted every Catholic to at least have a reasonable chance to attend. We have Catholics in our community who drive over an hour one-way each Sunday to attend.

But also - as a spiritual and moral principle - I get what you’re saying. We should not treat such matters as a competition among each other.

 

[twf]

The kids are old rite? Not really. In the Americas, at least, the number of Catholics attending the traditional Latin Mass, even where available, is less than one percent of total Mass attendance. I think that it may be correct to say that seminarians are “more traditional” than many of their elders. However, that does not mean a preference for the Latin Mass. The Latin-only priestly groups remain very small as a percentage of total priests. The author mentions the situation in France. The fact that the Church is in a state of grave crisis in several European countries has little to do with the modern vs. old Mass.

In short, all orthodox Catholics are traditional, but traditional does not mean attached to the Latin Mass. I mean no offense by that, I sometimes attend the TLM Mass fifteen miles from my home. They are a great group, albeit small.

I think the broader comment is valid. Younger priests certainly, and even a significant number of younger people, are more interested in traditional elements at Mass… even if that just means a bit of plainchant at the Sunday Ordinary Form Mass. In my experience, younger priests are far more likely to chant or use incense than their elders.

 

[Wampa]

Thanks for posting this, Johnny. It was really interesting, especially the NYC Mass.

 

[grannymh]

This thread is beyond me. It is fast moving and actually that is a good thing considering the unknown new format or platform. All of us need more information about Traditional Catholicism.

I do see a kind of competition between those who believe in the current Catholic Church and those who wish to rebuild the current Catholic Church according to individual preferences. Traditional Catholicism is not in the mode of rebuilding Catholicism. Praise God!

 

[pianistclare]

I like that idea - and I wish it was true,

But the minority rite does suffer from threats of being wiped out since only a rare few bishops take active steps to preserve or foster it. The survival and growth of the EF has come entirely from painful “warfare” to this point. Pope Benedict offered a marvelous blessing with his document, but even then - hostility remains, there are threats and EF communities always have to compete for respect, resources, availability and many other basic sorts of things in the diocese.
The fact that still not every Catholic has reasonable access to the EF is evidence of the problem. I believe Pope Benedict wanted every Catholic to at least have a reasonable chance to attend. We have Catholics in our community who drive over an hour one-way each Sunday to attend.

But also - as a spiritual and moral principle - I get what you’re saying. We should not treat such matters as a competition among each other.

If there were a demand you would have it.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Anyone who believes that watching a priest pray the Mass with gloves on and in a language that they don’t speak is somehow more appealing to young people likely has never actually worked with young people.
Young people are very interested in the faith, and guess what? We DO teach them that the Mass is a Sacrifice. The Sacrifice of the Mass. Yes, that’s what it is called in textbooks, LT, and classrooms everywhere. You have to GET the kids to class and Mass in the first place though.
The reason why youth is not on their knees is not that education is bad. It’s because their parents won’t bring them, not because there’s not enough incense.
Talk to people about attending Mass and obeying the Commandments. Have THAT talk.

It’s lovely for those who want it desperately, we get it. Really. Go for it. Encourage those parishes. Support them with your $$$ so they can continue.

But it’s not a CURE for what is going on in the church.
Saying it 1000 times is not going to make it happen.

This is probably too simple but one could say that adults need to be evangelized so that children can be catechized.

 

[grannymh]

This is probably too simple but one could say that adults need to be evangelized so that children can be catechized.

:flowers:

 

[reggieM]

If there were a demand you would have it.

Just curious, where do you get your information and knowledge about the EF in the Church today? Which sources? Do you get the FSSP newsletter, for example? Do you support your local EF community and discuss with them? Other priests and faithful who support the EF?
Again, just wondering. Thanks.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I can’t say whether it’s true or not that younger people are going more traditional. Perhaps some are, but a lot are just dropping out.

I have been told by young priests that the seminarians and younger priests now are more traditional than their elders, including having an interest in the TLM. That’s anecdotal, and I’ll grant that.

Also, my own adult children are more traditional and more inclined to the TLM, and not just the TLM. Their dislike of lightweight homilies, schmaltzy church music, and a general slovenliness in the liturgy are pretty intense.

Their choices of confessors are also much better thought out than my own. My son goes by appointment before Mass and is often the only one who goes, which is why the appointment is necessary. One of my adult daughters, in fact, goes to confession to an SSPX priest under the “Year of Mercy” dispensation. She praises his understanding, gentleness, and actual spiritual advice. Also the time he takes with her. I don’t know what she’ll do when the “Year of Mercy” ends. Interestingly, though, she doesn’t go to SSPX Masses or anything else they have going; just confession.

I don’t know where any of that came from. While I really dislike some of the hymns, I do like some of them (as do my children) and sing in the choir, including the Marty Haugen and St. Louis Jesuit numbers I really don’t care for. I don’t have a problem with the N.O. I don’t care for Gregorian chant (my son even has a disc he plays in his car while traveling).

I don’t see how they could have gotten their current approaches from me or my wife. I think it’s something different. They’re very earnest and serious about their faith, as we are. But I think it’s something about the mysticism. The Eastern Churches are big into that. I did tell my children that the Latin was used because it was “universal” once as a language, understood by almost everyone in Europe. Also, the Greek “Kyrie” was a remembrance of the former unity with Orthodoxy and a reminder of our brotherhood with the Eastern Catholic Churches. So, here’s all the Latin, then suddenly Greek. There’s a certain richness to all of that; a richness that sometimes seems to have been lost.

So they know something of the history because I taught them about it. They are all very much into history and worship. It might really be a “patrimony” thing; like great-grandfather’s Douay bible.

I remember in some Kipling story or other, his saying when the panther loses its way in hunting, it leaps back and sniffs the ground to see if it can again pick up the scent.

In a Church in which some members and even clergy seem to some to have “lost their way” in some (but certainly not all) respects, it may be the return to previous ways is like Kipling’s panther. If I had to characterize it, I would say it’s almost certainly a good thing.

 

[otjm]

Some years ago there were some articles on what was being labeled the “John Paul 2” priests; young men who were ordained during and after his reign, and had been impacted by his leadership of the Church.

and there was a consistent comment about them. However, the comment was not that they were “traditional”; it was, rather that they were reverent.

In reading those comments and observing since then, One can see that the majority of what have been termed “abuses” were done by priests who were ordained prior to, and for several decades after, Vatican 2. And a significant part of that has been attributed to the fact that whatever the issues were that the older priests were carrying simply don’t exist with the younger priests. they are in essence 2 generations removed from the earliest ordained.

Pope Benedict 16 spoke of a remnant Church, and while people in the US got a twitter about the comment, it was directed towards Europe. People there have abandoned the Church en masse. and so, any comments bout France being almost exclusively EF need to be seen in what is the reality there now.

In 2010, the estimate was made that about 4.5% of Catholics attend Mass regularly. I have seen nowhere any statistics showing any increase since then, and if the decline has continued, then even fewer are attending Mass at all.

la-croix.com/La-France-reste-catholique-mais-moins-pratiquante/article/2407513/4078

It helps, when discussing something, to have a factual understanding of what is being discussed. Rather than a growing increase in the EF, it appears that it is far more likely a growing decrease in Mass attendance overall, consistent with history. France is one of the most secular countries, and the source of the Enlightenment and the French Revolution. Once the world bastion of the Faith, it is not the Bastion of the secular.

 

[Entwhistler]

Once could make the argument that rather than people embracing TLM, people are embracing reverence and solemness. And, as of right now, it might be easier to go to a Latin Parish where the reverence is already there and the chant is already sung and the hymns are already Catholic than trying to change the local Novus Ordo parish. Not that there aren’t awesome Novus Ordo parishes but they don’t seem to be the norm. Unfortunately.

Juts a thought. I don’t know if this is the case. It could be a combination of the search for reverence and the renewed interest in TLM.

 

[reggieM]

Entwhistler:
Wait a second. Did the thread title draw you in as a memory of your namesake, Entwhistle?

My [trad] generation won’t get fooled again [by modernists].

 

[gracepoole]

Once could make the argument that rather than people embracing TLM, people are embracing reverence and solemness. And, as of right now, it might be easier to go to a Latin Parish where the reverence is already there and the chant is already sung and the hymns are already Catholic than trying to change the local Novus Ordo parish. Not that there aren’t awesome Novus Ordo parishes but they don’t seem to be the norm. Unfortunately.

Juts a thought. I don’t know if this is the case. It could be a combination of the search for reverence and the renewed interest in TLM.

You may be on to something. If I travel out of town and attend a different parish, I’ve no idea what I’m in store for. Could be altar bells and incense, could be secular music and social hour all throughout the Mass. If I attend the EF, however, there’s a better chance that I can reasonably expect reverence and solemnity. There’s a better chance that the Mass I attend out of town will be extremely similar to the Mass I’d attend at home.

I say all of this as someone who almost exclusively attends the OF. I just become weary of guessing at what I’ll find when I walk into a new parish. Thankfully, the one thing I can be certain of finding is Christ Himself.

 

[otjm]

You may be on to something. If I travel out of town and attend a different parish, I’ve no idea what I’m in store for. Could be altar bells and incense, could be secular music and social hour all throughout the Mass. /QUOTE]Well, I have no idea what part of the US you are traveling in. But having gone to Mass in North Dakota, Montana, Washington, northern California, and my own state of Oregon (numerous parishes), I have never gone to a Mass that was a social hour throughout it - or social hour for any part of it; and never experienced secular music.

I am sorry you have had those experiences.

 

[reggieM]

You may be on to something. If I travel out of town and attend a different parish, I’ve no idea what I’m in store for. Could be altar bells and incense, could be secular music and social hour all throughout the Mass. If I attend the EF, however, there’s a better chance that I can reasonably expect reverence and solemnity. There’s a better chance that the Mass I attend out of town will be extremely similar to the Mass I’d attend at home.

I say all of this as someone who almost exclusively attends the OF. I just become weary of guessing at what I’ll find when I walk into a new parish. Thankfully, the one thing I can be certain of finding is Christ Himself.

I think that’s a key concern for many who adhere just to the EF. Since the OF does permit such a wide variety of styles, it’s hard to know where and when a more reverent styled OF can be found. If a pastor is changed, even this can change in a parish. Whereas, when people seek out the EF - it’s totally consistent from place to place. Priests are trained and they offer Mass in the same way with the same reverent forms.

 

[reggieM]

One of my adult daughters, in fact, goes to confession to an SSPX priest under the “Year of Mercy” dispensation. She praises his understanding, gentleness, and actual spiritual advice. Also the time he takes with her. I don’t know what she’ll do when the “Year of Mercy” ends. Interestingly, though, she doesn’t go to SSPX Masses or anything else they have going; just confession.

I’m hoping that mercy will be extended indefinitely - or rather, permanently. I can see good fruits coming from it, as in this case.

I don’t know where any of that came from. While I really dislike some of the hymns, I do like some of them (as do my children) and sing in the choir, including the Marty Haugen and St. Louis Jesuit numbers I really don’t care for. I don’t have a problem with the N.O. I don’t care for Gregorian chant (my son even has a disc he plays in his car while traveling).

Maybe in this case, kids are rebelling against Dad a bit but perhaps you’re also too modest - it sounds like these are some very well-formed young Catholics and family life and faith of the parents usually has a lot to do with that. But throughout the EF communities I’ve visited, I’ve found this intensity - it’s a youthful spirit that is very serious and it doesn’t like the laid-back approach that is found almost everywhere among priests and faithful.

There’s a certain richness to all of that; a richness that sometimes seems to have been lost.

Exactly. The younger generations can see how we have lost our roots. They look around and see a culture and society adrift - they see this among Catholics. There’s a lack of identity. Many parishes do not form people in the Faith - it’s more like a social gathering. Plus, most importantly - many modern Catholics actually have a contempt for the tradition of the past, it will be ridiculed and shunned. The modern Catholic approach has stripped away all of the mysticism - it’s worldly and secular. But when someone looks at that richness that you mention - the depth of Catholic history in saints and holy lives of the past, the EF connects the believer to those ancient times, and to the timelessness of the Catholic Faith better, in the minds of those who see it that way, than the more modern approaches can do.

In a Church in which some members and even clergy seem to some to have “lost their way” in some (but certainly not all) respects, it may be the return to previous ways is like Kipling’s panther. If I had to characterize it, I would say it’s almost certainly a good thing.

I fully agree - and great post. Thanks.

 

[gracepoole]

Well, I have no idea what part of the US you are traveling in. But having gone to Mass in North Dakota, Montana, Washington, northern California, and my own state of Oregon (numerous parishes), I have never gone to a Mass that was a social hour throughout it - or social hour for any part of it; and never experienced secular music.

I am sorry you have had those experiences.

You’ve never had the, erm, privilege of attending a Mass during which “Morning Has Broken” was played? I envy you. And my word, even at my regular parish, people talk loudly right up until the opening hymn is announced, they repeat this at the sign of peace, and once the closing hymn begins it starts all over again.