The Killer Law!

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zerinus

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A law passed in Nicaragua last November banning all abortions under any circumstances (even when the life of the mother is at risk) has so far led to (at least) 82 avoidable deaths of pregnant women (and their babies, I presume). Here are some news reports:

ippf.org/NR/exeres/07FDE066-6CB9-4A65-8B72-9F59619D5643.htm
parentdish.com/2007/10/10/abortion-ban-in-nicaragua-leads-to-death/
iht.com/articles/2006/11/27/america/web.1127nicaragua.php

Is this Catholicism?

zerinus
Evil means never justify the ends.
How many lives were saved because of this law?
 
It’s hardly comparable to the killing of thousands of babies is it? I’d say that is a very low mortality rate in comparison to the mortality rate when abortion is legal.
 
A law passed in Nicaragua last November banning all abortions under any circumstances (even when the life of the mother is at risk) has so far led to (at least) 82 avoidable deaths of pregnant women (and their babies, I presume). Here are some news reports:

ippf.org/NR/exeres/07FDE066-6CB9-4A65-8B72-9F59619D5643.htm
parentdish.com/2007/10/10/abortion-ban-in-nicaragua-leads-to-death/
iht.com/articles/2006/11/27/america/web.1127nicaragua.php

Is this Catholicism?

zerinus
Well, Z, you are showing a Mormon’s true colors - pro-abortion all the way.
 
It’s hardly comparable to the killing of thousands of babies is it? I’d say that is a very low mortality rate in comparison to the mortality rate when abortion is legal.
I forgot to add that abortion rate in Nicaragua before the passing of this law was extremely low anyway; and the above figure is only what is known. The true figure is likely to be much higher.

zerinus
 
At least millions of innocent babies aren’t being butchered.
 
I forgot to add that abortion rate in Nicaragua before the passing of this law was extremely low anyway; and the above figure is only what is known. The true figure is likely to be much higher.

zerinus
How come you can give the exact number of fatalities, but just say “abortion rate…is extremely low.” Do you know the exact figures?
 
Yeah, it was the lack of abortion that killed those women and not the horrible medical services generally available in Nicaragua. I guess if one can believe God is a “perfected man,” one can believe just about anything.

– Mark L. Chance.
 
How come you can give the exact number of fatalities, but just say “abortion rate…is extremely low.” Do you know the exact figures?
None of the figures are mine. I didn’t invent the figures. I obtained them from the same news reports. If you put the right search terms in Google, you will get lots of hits. I selected three of them to post here, but there were many more.

zerinus
 
Oh, wait, I found the stats on my own from one of your links:
Abortion is criminalized throughout majority-Catholic Latin America, except in Cuba. Exceptions are made in most countries to save the mother’s life, a procedure known throughout the region as “therapeutic abortion.” Yet women in the region, who have poor access to contraception, have some of the highest rates of abortion in the world – with an estimated 3.9 million annually, or nearly one per woman over her lifetime.
Yeah, that’s pretty low.
 
Evil means never justify the ends.
So you believe it is right to hang the mother no matter what. Congratulations!
How many lives were saved because of this law?
Probably not many. It will still be carried out in secret in dangerous circumstances. But that is not the issue. The issue is, Do you genuinely believe that is is right to kill the mother and the baby, when it is possible to let the baby die and save the mother? Is that what the Catholic Church teaches?

zerinus
 
At least millions of innocent babies aren’t being butchered.
That is not the question. See my last post. It is possible to pass a law banning all abortions, except when the life of the mother is endangered. Why can’t the Catholics see the difference?

zerinus
 
Evil means never justify the ends.
How many lives were saved because of this law?
NONE. If the law allowed abortion under the condition of life threatening medical emergencies, then it would have saved some lives.
 
A law passed in Nicaragua last November banning all abortions under any circumstances (even when the life of the mother is at risk) has so far led to (at least) 82 avoidable deaths of pregnant women (and their babies, I presume).
When you come up with a cite stating that the babies perished, please post it. Until then, we will “presume” that those children were saved, even though the mothers died.
 
So you believe it is right to hang the mother no matter what. Congratulations!

Probably not many. It will still be carried out in secret in dangerous circumstances. But that is not the issue. The issue is, Do you genuinely believe that is is right to kill the mother and the baby, when it is possible to let the baby die and save the mother? Is that what the Catholic Church teaches?

zerinus
Zerinus, think it through. The Catholic teaching is that no direct killing action against the baby is permitted because that is murder.

Look at it this way…imagine that some fella said that he was going to kill me and the only way I could save myself was to have you (an innocent third party) killed. What right do I have to take your life? Same principle applies, unless you think that the unborn infant is somehow less of a person.
 
TOTAL, 1920 - 2006: 804,000,000 reported abortions, estimated 929,000,000 total abortions
Estimated current global monthly average: 1,202,000 abortions
johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/

Holland to allow ‘baby euthanasia’
AMSTERDAM, Netherlands - A hospital in the Netherlands — the first nation to permit euthanasia — recently proposed guidelines for mercy killings of terminally ill newborns, and then made a startling revelation: It has already begun carrying out such procedures, which include administering a lethal dose of sedatives.

The announcement by the Groningen Academic Hospital came amid a growing discussion in Holland on whether to legalize euthanasia on people incapable of deciding for themselves whether they want to end their lives — a prospect viewed with horror by euthanasia opponents and as a natural evolution by advocates.
msnbc.msn.com/id/6621588/

A relatively high percentage of babies born in the U.S. die before their first birthday, compared with other industrialized nations. Forty countries, including Cuba, Taiwan and most of Europe had lower infant mortality rates than the U.S. in 2004. The U.S. rate was 6.8 deaths for every 1,000 live births. It was 13.7 for Black Americans, the same as Saudi Arabia.
apnews.myway.com/article/20070812/D8QVEIRO0.html

2 Guatemala Candidates Shot Before Vote
Two candidates from Nobel Laureate and presidential hopeful Rigoberta Menchu’s political party were shot dead Wednesday amid a wave of campaign-related violence that has claimed about 50 lives.

The victims were running for municipal council seats in San Raymundo, 30 kilometers (20 miles) north of Guatemala City. This has been the most violent campaign in Guatemala’s recent history. About 50 politicians, activists and their relatives have been killed during the past four months of campaigning to replace the president, federal lawmakers and local officials in the election Sunday.
lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-sa/2007/sep/05/090506725.html

Nicaraguan Leader Rails at U.S. Hegemony
Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega accused the U.S. of imposing a worldwide dictatorship and defended the right of Iran and North Korea to pursue nuclear technology in a speech Tuesday before the U.N. General Assembly meeting.

Ortega also angrily denounced President Bush for criticizing Cuban leader Fidel Castro during his speech earlier in the day. Ortega, who took office in January, said little had changed since he last addressed the world body as the Marxist leader of Nicaragua’s Sandinista-run government two decades ago.
lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/w-sa/2007/sep/25/092509979.html
 
Yeah, it was the lack of abortion that killed those women and not the horrible medical services generally available in Nicaragua. I guess if one can believe God is a “perfected man,” one can believe just about anything.

– Mark L. Chance.
There are some complicated pregnancies (rare though they may be) that inevitably lead to the death of the mother and the baby if not terminated. Those are the recorded instances in the reports probably. One particular example (of an ectopic pregnancy) was mentioned in the reports. Why do Catholics believe that it is better to let the mother and the baby die, when it is possible to save the life of the mother and let the baby die? What is the moral, scriptural, theological, or philosophical justification for this?

zerinus
 
When you come up with a cite stating that the babies perished, please post it. Until then, we will “presume” that those children were saved, even though the mothers died.
Unlikely. One example of a woman was mentioned in the reports that died with her baby.

zerinus
 
There are some complicated pregnancies (rare though they may be) that inevitably lead to the death of the mother and the baby if not terminated. Those are the recorded instances in the reports probably. One particular example (of an ectopic pregnancy) was mentioned in the reports. Why do Catholics believe that it is better to let the mother and the baby die, when it is possible to save the life of the mother and let the baby die? What is the moral, scriptural, theological, or philosophical justification for this?

zerinus
Zerinus,

Catholic moral theology allows for certain effective treatments of ectopic pregnancy that do not directly attack the baby. Read this for more info: cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=57
 
There are some complicated pregnancies (rare though they may be) that inevitably lead to the death of the mother and the baby if not terminated. Those are the recorded instances in the reports probably. One particular example (of an ectopic pregnancy) was mentioned in the reports. Why do Catholics believe that it is better to let the mother and the baby die, when it is possible to save the life of the mother and let the baby die? What is the moral, scriptural, theological, or philosophical justification for this?

zerinus
Catholic:

baby = human with a soul
mother = human with a soul

human = human = equal lives worth saving

An abortion is not “letting the baby die”. It is purposefully taking a life.

The Catholic position is that both lives are equally worth saving. Medically, everything should be done to save both lives, and not take either life purposefully.

How is this NOT moral?

Thou shalt not kill is the scripture you’re looking for.
 
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