The killer V2 spirit's full removal brings Springtime

[foolishmortal]

I love the Latin Mass! The music is angelic and the art and architecture is uplifting. Still, I wish for Vatican 2 Fathers’ and Pope Paul 6’s intentions for the Mass to be implemented and nothing else because most aren’t open to the Latin Mass. I’d even be comfortable with EWTN Masses if they had been what all Masses around the world were like, but the Masses around the world exemplify the “spirit” of Vatican 2. I don’t think the “Springtime” will be here until the deadening “spirit” of Vatican 2 is banished. God bless those bishops and priests that have been open to Ecclesia Dei, but those who want a well-done Mass shouldn’t need Ecclesia Dei because, technically, nothing should have been done except the 1970 Missal and some more vernacular (I however, think nothing should have been done with the '62 liturgy though some more vernacular wouldn’t have killed it) Those bishops need to remove all those in parishes who obstinately, not just ignorantly, scandalize the “little ones” with “the spirit of V2” so that people in the pews don’t need EWTN TV Masses to observe Catholic culture and hear good informational sermons. The way we pray is the way we believe, and the way we pray is seriously being screwed around with and needs to stop using negative consequences, if necessary, despite this era of positive thinking. This “spirit”, not homosexuality alone, helped foster the sexual scandel. Do we need another scandel before we take care of the real problem–the one pre-Vatican 2 Popes took care of correctly, in my opinion?

 

[m134e5]

foolishmortal:

IThis “spirit”, not homosexuality alone, helped foster the sexual scandel. Do we need another scandel before we take care of the real problem–the one pre-Vatican 2 Popes took care of correctly, in my opinion?

I agree with you- but just for thought…how do we know this hasn’t been happening for generations? I mean…today, a child would be ashamed to say he was molested- in the 1800’s, when ‘such things’ simply were not talked about, and the parish priests were respected and admired more and questioned and accused less, it would have been practically unthinkable to tell his parents what happened (and even if he did, the parents just might keep quiet about it too, out of embarrassment). I’m not saying it always happened as much as it did just after Vatican II, but there’s really no way of knowing how frequent it was 100 years ago.

 

[Agricola]

m134e5:

… but there’s really no way of knowing how frequent it was 100 years ago.

That would mean that we couldn’t assume that it did happen, wouldn’t it? Let’s try not to speculate on the extent of scandals of the past, present, or future, please. It does the Church no good.

As for the “spirit” of Vatican II, I have to agree with the OP. Whenever I hear of something being done in the name of the “spirit” of VII it raises the hairs on the back of my neck and I brace myself for an onslaught of desention of one kind or another. It is really a shame since the Council Fathers were truly inspired and the results have been disasterous.

I hope with all sincerity that our Holy Father, Benedict XVI, is able to instruct the Church sufficiently on the intentions of the Council, remind them that no doctrinal changes were made, and that the longstanding traditions of the Church were not thrown out, but added to for the sake of the people.

God bless,

Agricola

 

[foolishmortal]

I may have been a bit hard on clerics. I’m sure most do a good job, but are trying to reach out as Vatican said to do but I doubt in that way, but I think they could do it better by reaching out with all the Church has in a way modern people get. . We present Shakespeare to kids and explain the difficult language, but we dumb down moral theology and Bible language.

Some, however, are rebels. If, post Vatican 2, Lefebvre was excommunicated for his rebelliousness and nuns thinking they’d get holy orders got theirs, it should be done with knowingly obstinate clergy and heads and teachers of seminaries and Catholic schools.
Regarding art, architecture, liturgy and music, I guess punishment can’t be given to those with bad taste if no desire to undermine peoples’ Catholic Faith can be known in doing so, but I think bishops shouldn’t allow it because it has psychologically negative effects on Faith. Our heritage in the above fields should be promoted unless they want to admit an inorganic split from our past and not some “fresh air” being let in (even Pope John 23rd liked Latin).
We have the religious liberty and we’re all being nice to the Jews and everyone else. Let’s bring the novus ordo back to the intentions of the Vatican 2 Fathers and keep it in lock with the ascribed words (but changing “for all” to “for many” in the consecration prayer over the wine–as the Bible has it). Let’s give the people a truly heaven-on-Earth Mass (like EWTN’s) and not rock music, pastoral additives (which sets a bad precedent for weird interludes in the liturgy), televangelist backgrounds, and a horizontal-minded atmosphere that inspires no greatness higher than ourselves. We need to learn things at sermons and have art, music, and architecture create an atmosphere that lifts our hearts to heaven. We’re tired after a week. We need inspiration. We’re weary from the world and need to be reminded of what we need to know to not screw up our lives. We also need to know about the saints and happy stuff as well as admonitions they’ve given us so we wouldn’t think of leaving the Church for another

   Overall, things are getting better, I think.  There are benedictions and Stations of the Cross events and bulletins mentioning orthodox Catholic events and radio stations.  New good orders are popping up.  However, if the Vatican 2 lovers want Vatican 2 reforms and if they really believe in all of it, they may have to do some hard things to get it--all of it.   If clergy are to be shepherds, they'll have to get rid of some wolves that prey upon their sheep (with necessary charity, of course, but due assertion and execution of warnings).   They didn't and we had an adolescent (though pretty young adolescent) sex abuse nightmare and many more who don't know their faith and don't care (but hopefully more that do).
    
   If the wolves are not run out of positions of influence, a generation or 2 after the Pope John Paul 2's  youth grow up, the extreme liberals will still be in control still preying on those who didn't get to benefit from EWTN or the indult Latin Mass communities.   My siblings and I never heard of EWTN growing up.  Mass at our parish was by the book and nothing funny, as it is now.  We still never heard about the evils of contraception, abortion, porn, etc--not at Mass, at least--and much can be forgotten years after school.  We never heard of St. Liguori, St. Majella or St. Gemma or what they said about things--not that I remember.

A fresh air breeze, though seems to be blowing and more and more of the smoke of Satan out the rooms–I have hope it’s a Spring breeze.

 

[spiritblows]

m134e5:

I agree with you- but just for thought…how do we know this hasn’t been happening for generations? I mean…today, a child would be ashamed to say he was molested- in the 1800’s, when ‘such things’ simply were not talked about, and the parish priests were respected and admired more and questioned and accused less, it would have been practically unthinkable to tell his parents what happened (and even if he did, the parents just might keep quiet about it too, out of embarrassment). I’m not saying it always happened as much as it did just after Vatican II, but there’s really no way of knowing how frequent it was 100 years ago.

I think you speak the truth here. Child sexual abuse was basically not acknowledged way back when. I have no doubt whatsoever that there were the same problems with sin and temptation, since human beings are human beings.

Our culture, simultaneous with the post-V2 era, became much more open in many ways, not all of which were bad. There have been positive changes in the way we deal with issues such as abuse and this has led people to more freely speak out when they’ve been victimized.

 

[Ham1]

A significantly large number of the priests who committed the abuse in the 40’s - 80’s were ordained prior to Vatican II. So, don’t think that everything was all great prior to Vatican II. It wasn’t. The seminaries were in serious trouble in the 40’s and 50’s.

It’s nice that you like the Latin Mass. Find an indult. But don’t blame the problems in the Church on Vatican II because it just doesn’t make all that much sense.

Also, keep in mind that the “smoke of Satan” could very well be the Traditionalist movement. Think about it what a great coup for the devil. He finally gets his hands on devout Catholics and separates them from Christ’s Church. He must think of that as his masterpiece.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

I’m sick of hearing about this alleged springtime. Only people who live in an insular world could look at our Church today and see anything approaching a springtime. Lackeys tell those in charge pretty much what they want to hear. But when you’re on the ground at the parish level amongst the real people, it looks pretty much like a cold, barren winter.

But then, I am one of Satan’s obedient servants so maybe I’ve been blinded to the stunning renewal of our Faith over the past 40 years.

 

[katy]

Ham, I hope you are not referring to the folks who love the Indult TLM. I kind of go between it at the regular English Mass (also celebrated reverently) at our parish. The TLM priest and regular attendees seem quite devoted to the Church. Maybe you were referring to the Lefebre group.

 

[Ham1]

katy:

Ham, I hope you are not referring to the folks who love the Indult TLM. I kind of go between it at the regular English Mass (also celebrated reverently) at our parish. The TLM priest and regular attendees seem quite devoted to the Church. Maybe you were referring to the Lefebre group.

No not at all. The indult Mass is a good and wonderful thing. I am indeed referring to the schismatics who are outside the Church. I apologize for the confusion.

 

[Ham1]

Dr. Bombay:

I’m sick of hearing about this alleged springtime. Only people who live in an insular world could look at our Church today and see anything approaching a springtime. Lackeys tell those in charge pretty much what they want to hear. But when you’re on the ground at the parish level amongst the real people, it looks pretty much like a cold, barren winter.

But then, I am one of Satan’s obedient servants so maybe I’ve been blinded to the stunning renewal of our Faith over the past 40 years.

I suppose it depends on who you know and what parishes are around you. It seems that every young priest I come into contact with is wonderful and orthodox. I have friends who have just been ordained and they rave about the quality of their new fellow priests. We have many devout Bishops who are being placed in increasingly significant roles. It seems to me that many of the “problem” priests are 45+. Give it time. they will eventually be replaced by the next and better formed generation.

 

[bear06]

Dr. Bombay:

I’m sick of hearing about this alleged springtime. Only people who live in an insular world could look at our Church today and see anything approaching a springtime. Lackeys tell those in charge pretty much what they want to hear. But when you’re on the ground at the parish level amongst the real people, it looks pretty much like a cold, barren winter.

But then, I am one of Satan’s obedient servants so maybe I’ve been blinded to the stunning renewal of our Faith over the past 40 years.

You’re getting so cynical in your old age. At least the last 2 popes have used this phrase. I hardly live in an insular world. (I think that might be impossible with 6 kids). You should see the “springtime” in my diocese since my new, wonderful bishop arrived. Maybe you’re just in the southern hemisphere!

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Ham1:

I suppose it depends on who you know and what parishes are around you. It seems that every young priest I come into contact with is wonderful and orthodox. I have friends who have just been ordained and they rave about the quality of their new fellow priests. We have many devout Bishops who are being placed in increasingly significant roles. It seems to me that many of the “problem” priests are 45+. Give it time. they will eventually be replaced by the next and better formed generation.

Ham, I hope and pray you are correct. The irreverance at Mass that I witness is what most discourages me. I mean, it’s one thing to correct known liturgical abuses. But how do you restore reverence to two generations of Catholics who’ve known nothing but talking loudly in church before and after Mass and never so much as nod at the Blessed Sacrament? It is a monumental task and if the Magnificent One couldn’t do it, just who can?

I’ll have to keep making those Acts of Hope.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

bear06:

You’re getting so cynical in your old age. At least the last 2 popes have used this phrase. I hardly live in an insular world. (I think that might be impossible with 6 kids). You should see the “springtime” in my diocese since my new, wonderful bishop arrived. Maybe you’re just in the southern hemisphere!

I’ve always been cynical. Now I’m crotchety too.

We have a great new, faithful bishop as well. He’s been here less than a year. But I haven’t seen any great changes at least at the parish level. The horror I witnessed on Christmas Eve assured me that the status quo keeps going and going, like that little pink battery bunny.

I obviously need to pray for patience too.

 

[Ave_Maria_1]

I do not know what it will take to restore the faith in America–and elsewhere. We have generations that are uncatechised now. We have had 40 years of wandering in the liturgical desert.

I visited my former parish for Christmas Eve and was upset for a week. I was upset all the time after the new pastor came for the year before. I changed to the other parish in town that I can tolerate although it is still ‘american catholic’ and there are abuses,etc.

I LONG for holy and reverent Masses. I would gladly attend a Latin indult Mass but my bishop will not allow it. He will allow pro-abortion speakers for a diocesan fundraiser though. He retires in 2008 and I have been praying for years for a holy next bishop.
Or conversion for this one!

I would love to have our Mass of the ages back and our Church back but it took 40 years to disintegrate in this country and it will not be rebuilt as it was anytime soon. The protestant churches are peopled with Catholics who did not know their faith or the great Gift of God in our midst in the Holy Eucharist and in the Sacramental life.

Lord, have mercy!
Lord, restore us!
Lord, grant us holy priests and BISHOPS!

Ave Maria!

 

[Ham1]

Dr. Bombay:

Ham, I hope and pray you are correct. The irreverance at Mass that I witness is what most discourages me. I mean, it’s one thing to correct known liturgical abuses. But how do you restore reverence to two generations of Catholics who’ve known nothing but talking loudly in church before and after Mass and never so much as nod at the Blessed Sacrament? It is a monumental task and if the Magnificent One couldn’t do it, just who can?

I’ll have to keep making those Acts of Hope.

It will happen one great priest at a time. Slowly but surely, the priests who were never correctly formed will retire and be replaced by better men. It may take 30 years but it WILL happen.

Look at it this way: Compare now to 20 years ago…I would say now there is far less liturgical abuse, there are MUCH stronger bishops and there is MORE respect for the Eucharist (think how many pertpetual adoration chapels exist). I think it’s fairly easy to make a case that things have improved substantially since 1985.

 

[ComradeAndrei]

At all the vocation retreats I go to, talking to seminarians, etc. it looks a lot better to me. I am constantly suprised (I shouldn’t be though) at how the up and coming crop of priests seem to want to do things by the book, in an orthodox and reverent manner.

We should never fall into despair. Christ promised that His Church would never fail-and so it won’t. However, always pray and always work so that the Lord can make us of us for this renewal of orthodoxy.

 

[slewi]

I have a FSSP church near me, and today while out running errands for work, I stopped there. They were having adoration of the Blessed Sacrament in honor of it being First Friday.

The first thing that struck me when I entered was that the church smelled of incense.

There were multiple signs in the back of the church that said something like: “The Blessed Sacrament is reserved here. Please show your respect by being silent and dressing appropriately.”

There were four people in the pews praying. The women were veiled. And also the parish priest was in the front pew praying as well. As people came and went they all double genuflected and stayed in that position for a few seconds with their heads bowed before getting up.

I compared this to my home parish’s attempt at adoration back in October. I walked into the church, and it was empty, save for the Lord. Not even the priest. I felt so sad and embarrased that he was all alone. I went up to the altar rail so I could be closer to him and prayed.

No one double genuflected that I recall. Perhaps one of the older folks may have. Not many even genuflected. Some laypeople entering the sanctuary for the benediction later in the evening hardly noticed he was there.

At the FSSP church I felt comforted and welcomed by the Lord. I felt that all present had a firm understanding of what was going on.

At my home parish I felt comforted and welcomed by the Lord, but that social concerns were more important to our congregation than our Lord displaying himself for us. I felt as if we were letting him down.

At the FSSP church all felt right and good…

S

 

[bear06]

Dr. Bombay:

I’ve always been cynical. Now I’m crotchety too.

We have a great new, faithful bishop as well. He’s been here less than a year. But I haven’t seen any great changes at least at the parish level. The horror I witnessed on Christmas Eve assured me that the status quo keeps going and going, like that little pink battery bunny.

I obviously need to pray for patience too.

It takes time, my friend, to shake the tree hard enough to get rid of the rotten but keep the ripe. Of course, most of us would be happy if the tree was just drastically pruned in a quick manner but that serves, well, us.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Dr. Bombay:

Ham, I hope and pray you are correct. The irreverance at Mass that I witness is what most discourages me. I mean, it’s one thing to correct known liturgical abuses. But how do you restore reverence to two generations of Catholics who’ve known nothing but talking loudly in church before and after Mass and never so much as nod at the Blessed Sacrament? It is a monumental task and if the Magnificent One couldn’t do it, just who can?

I’ll have to keep making those Acts of Hope.

I think if the priests are brave enough to talk about faith and morals in every one of their homilies, they will restore that education to those generations of Catholics who are so ignorant of their faith.

There are too many water-downed homilies, either because the priests are not strong in their own faith or because the people reprimand the priests every time they speak strongly on matters of faith. (The latter is what happens in my parish).

Keep making those acts of hope, and maybe, just maybe, faith and catechesis can be implemented from the bottom up, parish by parish.

 

[foolishmortal]

maybe the Church is going through a passion so that it looks so ugly that some will set up alternative Catholic (both together being an oxymoron) churches or try to infiltrate it with the world’s values only going so far before getting stopped at the doors of dogma. Others will run off and others will sit by indifferent. What do you think?
The only thing I heard that was going bad was the Latin Mass was being said to quickly. Look at what abuses are going on now. How many “little ones” must be scandalized (and that can include world-weary average-Joe workers who don’t learn about their faith or go to Mass daily) before the 1970 Missal is enforced and Vatican 2 is enforced other than having more lay apostolates, kindness to Jews and other non Christians and Catholics and religious freedom. Shepherds need to run off the wolves in sheep’s clothing. Some are doing that but they still allow scandelous art, architecture, music and sermons to go on.
Maybe some abuser priests were from pre-Vatican 2 times. Some had to badly catechize the Boomers and it wasn’t the Boomers.