The kneeling saga continues

[hopefull]

I go to a church where we kneel at Mass on Sundays and the church has kneelers, but on weekdays I was surprised that at the Mass in the chapel no one was kneeling. About 10% of the chairs had kneelers, and of course none of the chairs in the front row had kneelers. The first time I went, everybody was standing, and I felt terrible afterward, like I had been ashamed to kneel in adoration, like I hadn’t done what my soul was calling me to do.

The next time I just knelt down after the Sanctus, and to my surprise in about 10 seconds an older gentleman joined me in kneeling. I didn’t know if it was so I wouldn’t feel strange or if he was really waiting for someone else to do it first. A year later, about half the chapel kneels and about half stands. The priests don’t comment one way or the other, and I know I still feel unity with the community. Our mutual belief is so much stronger than our body positions. And I would hope that an older or injured person who can’t kneel wouldn’t feel separated from the community either. What this taught me was that some folks were just waiting to be encouraged. Also, it has led to those in the front rows realizing if they don’t kneel, that someone behind them who does want to kneel won’t be able to see the consecration, but instead just the butt of the person in the first row. Just another views.

 

[Magnum_V8]

This morning was interesting. I’ll try to make it as brief as possible.

I’m a local truck driver. If I’m in a certain area, I can pick up the EWTN radio station. Well, I tried to tune in this morning and got nothing but static. So I stopped at a gas station, then as I got back on the freeway, the station came in. It was a call-in show, nearing the end.

The first call that I was able to catch was a question about getting communion rails installed in a church. The guest, a Monsignor, answered that communion would not be ministered that way, that standing is the norm, but the caller could still receive communion on the tongue.

The second call was to argue that communion could not be refused to a person who chooses to kneel. The Monsignor agreed, but also said the priest is obligated to instruct the communicant on proper procedure, but cannot scold him/her.

Now the third and final call really hit home. It wasn’t a question. The caller wanted to comment that he had been in the military all over the world. He said something to the effect of “if we could kneel on rough concrete, then there’s no reason for not kneeling in church here in the United States.” The Monsignor whole-heartedly agreed.

I immediately thought, “wow, I guess I know now what God wants from me.” The circumstances were just too coincidental. I do believe that was God’s way of sending me a message.

This coming Sunday I will be kneeling.

 

[SORROWS]

This morning was interesting. I’ll try to make it as brief as possible.

I’m a local truck driver. If I’m in a certain area, I can pick up the EWTN radio station. Well, I tried to tune in this morning and got nothing but static. So I stopped at a gas station, then as I got back on the freeway, the station came in. It was a call-in show, nearing the end.

The first call that I was able to catch was a question about getting communion rails installed in a church. The guest, a Monsignor, answered that communion would not be ministered that way, that standing is the norm, but the caller could still receive communion on the tongue.

The second call was to argue that communion could not be refused to a person who chooses to kneel. The Monsignor agreed, but also said the priest is obligated to instruct the communicant on proper procedure, but cannot scold him/her.

Now the third and final call really hit home. It wasn’t a question. The caller wanted to comment that he had been in the military all over the world. He said something to the effect of “if we could kneel on rough concrete, then there’s no reason for not kneeling in church here in the United States.” The Monsignor whole-heartedly agreed.

I immediately thought, “wow, I guess I know now what God wants from me.” The circumstances were just too coincidental. I do believe that was God’s way of sending me a message.

This coming Sunday I will be kneeling.

 

[Patchunky]

In some of the Byzantine Church and in some parts of the year, they don’t kneel during the comparable part of the Liturgy of the Word. In other parts of that particular Church and in other parts of the year, they do. Some Byzantine Churches have pews, others don’t. Latinizations have prevented uniformity within the Eastern Rite Churches

In the Byzantine Ruthenian Rite, Holy Tradition says there is no kneeling from Easter Sunday until Pentecost. Kneeling is a sign of penance and there is to be great joy during the Paschal Season.

In some churches, they had taken back the ancient tradition of standing at Divine Liturgy on Sundays during the whole year. This follows the decree of the Fathers of the 7th Ecumenical Council of Nicea in the 8th century which decreed there was to be no kneeling on Sundays.

Hope this helps…

 

[MaggieOH]

It is not necessary to have kneelers in the church building in order to kneel during the Mass. When I was at school and the Mass was held in the hall we did not have kneelers but we did kneel at the appropriate times.

There are several reasons why I am against the use of kneelers:

1. The kneelers that are made of wood are extremely hard on one’s knees and can lead to osteoarthritis in the knees. This is alleviated on a carpeted floor.
2. They do not add to the process of being in Church. A church that has carpet on the floor is good enough for kneeling.
3. I personally do not kneel because of arthritic problems. I have received permission not to kneel during the Mass because of the back and knee problems.

On the other hand, there are good reasons to talk to the present pastor at that church and seek clarification over the issue of the congregation not kneeling during the appropriate times in the Mass. The removal of kneelers should not mean that everyone is to either stand or sit during the Mass instead of kneeling.

It is the norm in the Eastern Orthodox churches to stand rather than kneel, but standing can be as hard on one’s feet as kneeling on one’s knees. Yes, even sitting on those hard seats can cause all sorts of bother (especially when the tailbone has been fractured)

 

[AnimaChristi]

Hey, first things first…new here, name’s John-Paul.

In a U.S. church that doesn’t have any kneeling during the Mass, should kneeling be done anyway?

The parish that I belong to removed the kneelers 10 years ago, long before I joined the parish. We do not kneel at all during the Mass, and I’m starting to find it rather disrespectful. I grew up in the Novus Ordo, but left the faith for about 13 years. For the past couple years I’ve gradually renewed my faith and things are starting to come back.

The General Instruction of the Roman Missal clearly states that we are to kneel at certain points.

The question is: would I be “holier than thou” to start kneeling on the floor during those particular parts of the liturgy?

Once I get a little more involved in the parish I’m going to try to convince the pastor to bring the kneelers back. Until then, I’m not sure what the best course of action would be. I feel the most reverence for the Lord when I’m kneeling. But I certainly don’t want to interfere with others. However, when I mentioned things like this to a priest from a different parish, he told me to “be the example.”

How commonplace is standing for the traditional kneeling parts of the liturgy?

Thanks.

If you are moved to humble yourself to revere our Lord, then by all means, bend the knees, and kneel on the floor.

 

[drafdog]

I worship at a parish where the church was designed without kneelers. As a consequence there is no room to install kneelers even if we wanted to incur the expense. Some people wanted the pastor to put in kneelers but the architect who designed the church pointed out that we would loose seating capacity at a time when the congregation is still growing. Certainly a contra-productive move. He does not intend to even entertain the idea of adding kneelers.
There is no lose of reverence as we stand to worship. Reverence is an attitude of mind and heart, not of body. Remember the “I” in GIRM stands for “instruction”. It is not a law.

Matthew

 

[Susanjane190]

… I personally do not kneel because of arthritic problems. I have received permission not to kneel during the Mass because of the back and knee problems.

Maggie,

I, too, have knee and back problems-- do I need to ask my pastor for permission to sit in lieu of kneeling or whenever I am no longer able to stand?

Thanks.

 

[Patchunky]

It is the norm in the Eastern Orthodox churches to stand rather than kneel

this is a pic of the new St. Matthew’s Orthodox Church in Columbia, they had their 1st Divine Liturgy at the beginning of Great Lent… and yes the chairs have kneelers attached…

http://www.stmatthewoca.org/construction/20070211-001.jpg

 

[calchiquita]

I worship at a parish where the church was designed without kneelers. As a consequence there is no room to install kneelers even if we wanted to incur the expense. Some people wanted the pastor to put in kneelers but the architect who designed the church pointed out that we would loose seating capacity at a time when the congregation is still growing. Certainly a contra-productive move. He does not intend to even entertain the idea of adding kneelers.
There is no lose of reverence as we stand to worship. Reverence is an attitude of mind and heart, not of body. Remember the “I” in GIRM stands for “instruction”. It is not a law.

Matthew

I’m just guessing, but if it was designed without kneelers there may not be space enough to kneel, in which case you wouldn’t.

 

[kbharbert]

Thanks for making the decision so easy.

As far as my reasons for kneeling if I were to do so, the main reason would be that I feel it is the right thing to do. But, yes, part of it has to do with the fact that it would be following the GIRM and maybe persuading others to do the same.

I believe the priest that removed the kneelers 10 years ago is no longer a priest. I have no idea what his reasoning was, though.

i kind of wonder what made him give up the priesthood?
what you said though reminds me of an old story…
and…maybe…it’s why the kneelers haven’t returned…

a new bride was making her first Christmas ham for their first joint family dinner and was surprised when her husband asked her why she cut both ends off before placing it in the roaster pan.
she replied that she did so because she was ‘supposed’ too.
he looked at the old, yellowed recipe card in front of her.
right there…t the very top it said:
cut ends off ham before cooking.
at Christmas dinner, she commented to her mother that her new husband had questioned the reason they cooked the ham the way they did and since she had taught her to cook, (and given her the recipe) maybe she would be the better one to answer.
her mother replied: well…i’m not SURE really. MY mother taught ME…and SHE gave me that card…let’s ask her.
grandmother replied that she wasn’t sure either…she’d been given the recipe from HER mother BUT…luckily her mother (who had taught HER to cook) was still living and they’d be visiting her at the nursing home after dinner. ‘let’s ask her then’ grandmother said.
now BOTH familys were curious so quite a number tagged along on the visit to great-grandma.
the young husband, who had been the first to ever question the family recipe, was the one chosen to ask great- grandmother so, mouth dry and not a little nervous he approached her bed, took her hand and softly asked:
great-grandmother…why did you say to cut the ends off the ham before cooking?
great-grandmother slowly opened her eyes and in a breathy whisper said:
because if i didn’t, it wouldn’t fit in my roaster pan.

 

[Magnum_V8]

Now that I’ve been elected to the parish council, do you have any ideas on how to bring the issue up? I can pretty much guarantee they will say something to the effect of “we don’t have the money.” Of course, my response would be “we don’t need kneelers, just proper instruction that we are to kneel, per the GIRM.”

My first inclination is to print out the part of the GIRM that discusses that and the bible passage about “…every knee shall bow,” and give every council member a copy.

Any thoughts?

 

[kbharbert]

Now that I’ve been elected to the parish council, do you have any ideas on how to bring the issue up? I can pretty much guarantee they will say something to the effect of “we don’t have the money.” Of course, my response would be “we don’t need kneelers, just proper instruction that we are to kneel, per the GIRM.”

My first inclination is to print out the part of the GIRM that discusses that and the bible passage about “…every knee shall bow,” and give every council member a copy.

Any thoughts?

you could START the conversation with the concern that some may not know the girm instructs us to kneel at certain points and ask whether general instruction might be given.
if THAT seems well received, you could wait a couple of weeks and ca sually mention that kneelers might be a nice thing to have if monies were available.
you may not even need to bring up kneelers.
if instruction is given about kneeling and people are suddenly faced with the hard floor, i assure you, you will probably hear from a number of people who suddenly want them.

 

[RobinTruett]

I don’t know who started putting the thought into our heads, don’t act “holier then thou” but it has stopped good people who love the Lord, to be afraid to follow there heart. We’re told don’t be different, but I wonder who told them it was ok to stand during the Eucharistic Liturgy? So many women I’ve talk to want to wear veils but someone put that phrase in our head so we don’t,(I now wear a veil),Making the sign of the cross in public…signofcross: ops there’s that thought again and so many other Catholic traditions are being lost because we’re afraid of what people might think. I care more about what God thinks. The Saints stood out from the rest and weren’t always liked. They followed the heart, loved the Lord and always showed Him great respect and reverence: And what’s wrong with triing to be holy???is not that what we’re here for… so we can become saints and live happy in heaven with God forever???:heaven:

 

[Magnum_V8]

I don’t know who started putting the thought into our heads, don’t act “holier then thou” but it has stopped good people who love the Lord, to be afraid to follow there heart. We’re told don’t be different, but I wonder who told them it was ok to stand during the Eucharistic Liturgy? So many women I’ve talk to want to wear veils but someone put that phrase in our head so we don’t,(I now wear a veil),Making the sign of the cross in public…signofcross: ops there’s that thought again and so many other Catholic traditions are being lost because we’re afraid of what people might think. I care more about what God thinks. The Saints stood out from the rest and weren’t always liked. They followed the heart, loved the Lord and always showed Him great respect and reverence: And what’s wrong with triing to be holy???is not that what we’re here for… so we can become saints and live happy in heaven with God forever???:heaven:

 

[Magnum_V8]

If you read my other thread you know about the kneeling issue in my church. If you hadn’t, then real quick:

No kneelers, no kneeling. I was on the fence of whether to start kneeling during those specific times of the liturgy or not. By the end of the discussion, and after a few “coincidental” occurrences, I said I would kneel.

Well, I DID. If felt great, even though my heart rate raised at first, because I knew I would cause a little bit of distraction. But my intentions were solely out of personal piety.

I will say though, that I fully expected a “conversation” to follow the mass with either the pastor, the council chairperson, or head usher. But, by the grace of God, none of them approached me to scold or argue.

Tomorrow being Memorial Day, I’ll have the day off and a chance to go to morning Mass. I might use that opportunity to have a discussion with the pastor after Mass.

Something happened before Mass at church that I’m going to post over in “Spirituality.” Be sure to check that out.

God bless you all for your words of encouragement on my other thread.

 

[stbruno]

It’s always scary being a groundbreaker, but I am personally proud of you.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

It’s always scary being a groundbreaker, but I am personally proud of you.

Your not a groundbreaker, we have been doing this for hundreds and hundreds of years. But your are a good teacher and example for others.

 

[stbruno]

Your not a groundbreaker, we have been doing this for hundreds and hundreds of years. But your are a good teacher and example for others.

Call it what you will, but this is rare at his church.

 

[Magnum_V8]

I think he meant “groundbreaker” for my parish.