The kneeling saga continues

[Magnum_V8]

The question at hand is about the practice in the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, not the Eastern Orthodox Church.

Ditto, Br. Rich SFO. I don’t understand why there are so many comparisons.

Aside from that, kneeling can be both repentant and adoring.

From INAESTIMABILE DONUM, approved by Pope John Paul II

#11…When the faithful communicate kneeling, no other sign of reverence towards the Blessed Sacrament is required, since kneeling is itself a sign of adoration.

 

[Sheeniac]

Thanks for making the decision so easy.

As far as my reasons for kneeling if I were to do so, the main reason would be that I feel it is the right thing to do. But, yes, part of it has to do with the fact that it would be following the GIRM and maybe persuading others to do the same.

I believe the priest that removed the kneelers 10 years ago is no longer a priest. I have no idea what his reasoning was, though.

I’ve asked a similar question about genuflecting prior to receiving, so your confusion is very similar.

As an aside, new churches being built w/o kneelers, or having them removed, pains me.

 

[TheGoodLife]

This is quite a learning thread…I never knew so many felt strongly about kneeling. I belong to a modern RC that doesn’t have pews or kneelers, just regular chairs. When I joined this parish ten years ago it did feel strange at first not to kneel, but I’ve come to accept standing and know that it doesn’t take away from my devotion during mass. It’s what’s in our hearts that matters.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

This is quite a learning thread…I never knew so many felt strongly about kneeling. I belong to a modern RC that doesn’t have pews or kneelers, just regular chairs. When I joined this parish ten years ago it did feel strange at first not to kneel, but I’ve come to accept standing and know that it doesn’t take away from my devotion during mass. It’s what’s in our hearts that matters.

I think it was Cardinal George who said that there is no requirement to have kneelers, just a requirement that one kneels.

 

[Seminarian_Matt]

As an aside, new churches being built w/o kneelers, or having them removed, pains me.

When I am given a parish after my ordination (God willing), then I will ensure there are not only kneelers but altar rails.

 

[Seminarian_Matt]

This is quite a learning thread…I never knew so many felt strongly about kneeling. I belong to a modern RC that doesn’t have pews or kneelers, just regular chairs. When I joined this parish ten years ago it did feel strange at first not to kneel, but I’ve come to accept standing and know that it doesn’t take away from my devotion during mass. It’s what’s in our hearts that matters.

As I have said before, the externals are an expression of the internal. The Church declares that you must kneel for the consecration since you are not meeting one of the objections set forth in the GIRM. You must kneel. Jesus Christ is present - please kneel. Write to your bishop about this. PLEASE for the love of Our Eucharistic Lord.

 

[tee_eff_em]

As I have said before, the externals are an expression of the internal. The Church declares that you must kneel for the consecration since you are not meeting one of the objections set forth in the GIRM. You must kneel. Jesus Christ is present - please kneel. Write to your bishop about this. PLEASE for the love of Our Eucharistic Lord.

That’s an awful lot to infer from TheGoodLife’s brief description. Lighten up. :twocents:

(And what constitutes the exception of “some other good reason” anyway? Obedience to your pastor? Obedience to your bishop?)

tee

 

[LilyM]

I’ve never in my life seen a Catholic Church where people stand for the Consecration! It’s Jesus, our Lord and God!

Kneel if you can, sit if you can’t. There’s no reason on earth to STAND!

 

[TheGoodLife]

As I have said before, the externals are an expression of the internal. The Church declares that you must kneel for the consecration since you are not meeting one of the objections set forth in the GIRM. You must kneel. Jesus Christ is present - please kneel. Write to your bishop about this. PLEASE for the love of Our Eucharistic Lord.

Our local bishop has visited the parish during mass, and so has a visiting bishop from Canada, and neither of them said anything about needing to kneel (at least to us parishioners).

 

[Seminarian_Matt]

Commonly found in parishes where hand-holding during the Our Father is prevalent, the disrespect for Jesus truly present is made manifest by refusing to kneel to God. Kneeling is required after the end of the “Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God” prayer until after the Great Amen of the Eucharistic prayer. Notice that there is no specific provision to avoid kneeling if there are no kneelers in a modernist Church building.

GIRM #21: “For the sake of uniformity in movement and posture, the people should follow the directions given during the celebration by the deacon, the priest, or another minister. Unless other provision is made, at every Mass the people should stand from the beginning of the entrance song or when the priest enters until the end of the opening prayer or collect; for the singing of the Alleluia before the gospel; while the gospel is proclaimed; during the profession of faith and the general intercessions; from the prayer over the gifts to the end of the Mass, except at the places indicated later in this paragraph. They should sit during the readings before the gospel and during the responsorial psalm, for the homily and the presentation of the gifts, and, if this seems helpful, during the period of silence after communion. They should kneel at the consecration unless prevented by the lack of space, the number of people present, or some other good reason.”

GIRM USA Appendix #21: “At its meeting in November, 1969, the National Conference of Catholic Bishops voted that in general, the directives of the “Roman Missal” concerning the posture of the congregation at Mass should be left unchanged, but that no. 21 of the “General Instruction” should be adapted so that the people kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic prayer, that is, before the Lord’s Prayer.”

ourladyswarriors.org/articles/badliturgy.htm

If you bishop will do nothing about this liturgical abuse, please write to the Vatican:

EDIT
As stated in Redemptionis Sacramentum, All Catholics are responsible for correcting abuses in the Liturgy by reporting it to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See (RS-184)

 

[tee_eff_em]

Commonly found in parishes where hand-holding during the Our Father is prevalent, the disrespect for Jesus truly present is made manifest by refusing to kneel to God. Kneeling is required after the end of the “Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God” prayer until after the Great Amen of the Eucharistic prayer. Notice that there is no specific provision to avoid kneeling if there are no kneelers in a modernist Church building.

Notice there is specific provision for lack of space, the number of people present, and (if we are to quote the current GIRM in favor of the former one) reasons of health, or some other good reason. Provision is even made for those cases where the faithful do remain standing (imagine that: it may be legitimate to do so!) “Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.”

The current document further states: “[A]ttention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.” and “With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.”

tee

 

[tee_eff_em]

Commonly found in parishes where hand-holding during the Our Father is prevalent, the disrespect for Jesus truly present is made manifest by refusing to kneel to God. Kneeling is required after the end of the “Holy, Holy, Holy Lord God” prayer until after the Great Amen of the Eucharistic prayer. Notice that there is no specific provision to avoid kneeling if there are no kneelers in a modernist Church building.

Notice there is specific provision for lack of space, the number of people present, and (if we are to quote the current GIRM in favor of the former one) reasons of health, or some other good reason. Provision is even made for those cases where the faithful do remain standing (imagine that: it may be legitimate to do so!) “Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.”

The current document further states: “[A]ttention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.” and “With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.”

tee

 

[Cat]

Seminarian Matt, I think it’s pretty clear in GIRM #21 that there is provision for standing during the consecration:

They should kneel at the consecration unless prevented by the lack of space, the number of people present, or some other good reason.

I have no intention of writing my Bishop about this. The GIRM is very clear that he is not perpetrating a liturgical abuse by allowing families to stand during the consecration during our Children’s Mass in the gymnasium.

Interestingly, I know TRAD families who attend this Mass, and they don’t kneel.

I think it’s more important that we show respect for the decision of our Bishop, the Apostle of Jesus, than that we take matters into our own hands and make a public show of reverence over the Bishop’s head.

Isn’t it more important to kneel in our hearts rather than with our knees? And even more important to keep this attitude of reverence for the Lord with us as we leave the Mass and go out into the world?

As long as the Bishop has declared standing OK–and the Bishop is the apostle of the Lord–isn’t it important to show unity with our brothers and sisters and join with them, rather than making ourselves stand out and possibly pointing out some flaw or lack of holiness in them by kneeling while they all stand?

BTW–it is not a requirement for families with children to attend this Children’s Mass. There are plenty of Masses for families (with children) to attend in which the people kneel during the consecration.

 

[Sheeniac]

“Isn’t it more important to kneel in our hearts rather than with our knees? And even more important to keep this attitude of reverence for the Lord with us as we leave the Mass and go out into the world?”

I would prefer to kneel both internally and externally. While I would still kneel, I wouldn’t look askance at those who stood. I do look with dismay at the churches being built without kneelers.

I would prefer to receive communion kneeling, or genuflect prior to receiving. I’ve seen it done (genuflection) at my parish, and see receiving while kneeling occasionally at the daily mass I try to attend near work.

However, I think if I were to do it it would somehow be more disruptive than not, so out of respect for my fellow Catholics receiving at the same time, I stand.

With respect to kneeling in your heart - I compare it to smiling when you are not in a good mood. A smile helps bring about a good mood. Unfortunately there are times when my concentration wanders during Mass (today being one such day). Kneeling with my body helps my heart to kneel.

 

[Digitonomy]

The 7th Ecumenical of Nicea in the 8th century decreed that there was to be NO KNEELING from Easter Sunday until Pentecost and NO KNEELING on Sundays whatsoever…

Can you provide a cite for that? I was unable to find it at the sites that I checked.

 

[Denae]

I’m in complete shock…I’ve never been to a Catholic Church that didn’t have kneelers!!! How could a Church not have kneelers???

 

[LilyM]

I’m in complete shock…I’ve never been to a Catholic Church that didn’t have kneelers!!! How could a Church not have kneelers???

I’ve been to small chapels and such that didn’t have 'em - but they always had either carpet to kneel on or little cushions for everyone.

 

[Denae]

I’ve been to small chapels and such that didn’t have 'em - but they always had either carpet to kneel on or little cushions for everyone.

Well yeah…I have seen those, I’ve even been to Mass in which there weren’t enough pews for everyone, so we had to go to the lower chapel and kneel on the floor (About 24,000 people were at the Mass I was at…) or outside in a big tent, but I didn’t even know you were ALLOWED to stand for the Consencration!! (I think I spelled that wrong…) I didn’t honestly know until just now that people do this!! (I guess I’m just ignorant huh?)

 

[mdgspencer]

The GIRM does say unless other provision is made. However, I am not aware that provision can be made by an individual bishop, though it seems that it can be made by a national conference of bishops. However, let me know if there is evidence that an individual bishop can alter the liturgy in his discese from the standards made by the national conference of bishops and by the GIRM–I would be interested in seeing this.

Seminarian Matt, I think it’s pretty clear in GIRM #21 that there is provision for standing during the consecration:

They should kneel at the consecration unless prevented by the lack of space, the number of people present, or some other good reason.

I have no intention of writing my Bishop about this. The GIRM is very clear that he is not perpetrating a liturgical abuse by allowing families to stand during the consecration during our Children’s Mass in the gymnasium.

Interestingly, I know TRAD families who attend this Mass, and they don’t kneel.

I think it’s more important that we show respect for the decision of our Bishop, the Apostle of Jesus, than that we take matters into our own hands and make a public show of reverence over the Bishop’s head.

Isn’t it more important to kneel in our hearts rather than with our knees? And even more important to keep this attitude of reverence for the Lord with us as we leave the Mass and go out into the world?

As long as the Bishop has declared standing OK–and the Bishop is the apostle of the Lord–isn’t it important to show unity with our brothers and sisters and join with them, rather than making ourselves stand out and possibly pointing out some flaw or lack of holiness in them by kneeling while they all stand?

BTW–it is not a requirement for families with children to attend this Children’s Mass. There are plenty of Masses for families (with children) to attend in which the people kneel during the consecration.

 

[mdgspencer]

It is true that there are liturgies where people do stand during the consecration–namely the masses in some of the Eastern Catholic rites. Still, I think that it is important to follow Church law, and indeed the Second Vatican Council (and the Catechism of the Catholic Church) insists that no one, bishop or priest, may alter the liturgy. I don’t think that Catholics should take it on themselves to suspend liturgical law. I can understand why some people in the Latin rite would stand, when, for example, they would feel great embarrasment if they are the only person kneeling during the eucharistic prayer, but I don’t think that we can say that doing this is the way the liturgy should be celebrated.

“Isn’t it more important to kneel in our hearts rather than with our knees? And even more important to keep this attitude of reverence for the Lord with us as we leave the Mass and go out into the world?”

I would prefer to kneel both internally and externally. While I would still kneel, I wouldn’t look askance at those who stood. I do look with dismay at the churches being built without kneelers.

I would prefer to receive communion kneeling, or genuflect prior to receiving. I’ve seen it done (genuflection) at my parish, and see receiving while kneeling occasionally at the daily mass I try to attend near work.

However, I think if I were to do it it would somehow be more disruptive than not, so out of respect for my fellow Catholics receiving at the same time, I stand.

With respect to kneeling in your heart - I compare it to smiling when you are not in a good mood. A smile helps bring about a good mood. Unfortunately there are times when my concentration wanders during Mass (today being one such day). Kneeling with my body helps my heart to kneel.