The kneeling saga continues

[Annc]

My husband and I are members of an Eastern Catholic - Byzantine Church. The proper liturgical posture for us is to stand. However, there are a few regular members who are Roman Catholic and for varying reasons do not attend Roman Mass.

So they kneel.

It doesn’t bother me that they are kneeling, but I wonder why they are making an effort (many people travel 30+ miles to get here) to come to this particular church if they’re not going to participate like everyone else.

Because I’m relatively new to the faith, I asked my priest about it one day. His comment was that a lot of people worship in their own way and that’s fine, but to him the old saying stands true.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do. :byzsoc:

I don’t know why they attend your church either. My family attends the parish we do because it is the least objectionable within a 30 minute drive. We went to a more traditional parish for several months but for various reasons, after a lot of prayer, felt that God wanted us closer to home. Some of his reasons have already been revealed (All Praise to Him!) but I have suffered somewhat of a spiritual drought at the same time. Not just the standing but the lack of devotion to the Eucharist (including lack of options for Mass). Pray for those congregants that they find what they are looking for. Perhaps it is possible to stand and have a reverant liturgy and all the things that I have had in the recent past but I haven’t seen it here

Peace.

 

[childofmary1143]

*<ahem> *Leaving aside the matter of Eastern Catholics lawfully following the rubrics of their rites

So what you are saying is: There is no good reason to obey your bishop in matters lawfully under his authority?


tee

I am not saying that at all. I am merely expressing an opinion and i think that the GIRM is very clear that no Bishop can just say that people can stand during the Consecration when there is no reason not to.

 

[TraceCub]

IPray for those congregants that they find what they are looking for. Perhaps it is possible to stand and have a reverant liturgy and all the things that I have had in the recent past but I haven’t seen it here.

Well said.

 

[tm30]

*<ahem> *Leaving aside the matter of Eastern Catholics lawfully following the rubrics of their rites

So what you are saying is: There is no good reason to obey your bishop in matters lawfully under his authority?


tee

If the bishop is compelling you to violate the requirement of the Magisterium that all must be KNEELING from the consecration to the great “Amen” - except perhaps in faraway lands that have never traditionally kneeled - disobedience is not a sin. Where does one draw the line in response to innovations that a Bishop chooses to impose on the flock? The GIRM doesn’t explicitly condemn going up to communion in a kick-line formation, either. If that were required, would you do it because the Bishop said so?

 

[Annc]

Annc,

But the final mentality should be that we are there for Jesus and with Jesus. And not a single one of us could keep our knees from bending if Jesus appeared in human form during Mass.

I was listening to a Catholic Apologetics CD, and the speaker quoted an atheist who said, “If Catholics actually believed what their Church teaches, they’d be on their hands and knees at Mass.” There is some truth to that.

Amen.

 

[Anacharius]

The only Word that was made Flesh who has that privilege to stand would be Christ Jesus, and the Roman Catholic Priest who is saying Mass ( that Mystery which unites Christ Jesus with the Priest ).
As for the rest of us, since we have too go to confession to confess our sins, it is more fitting for us to kneel and beg for God’s Infinite Mercy.
Christ Jesus said Quote " we are to come as little children to Him" An adult who is on their knee’s is about the size of a child.

 

[tee_eff_em]

I am not saying that at all. I am merely expressing an opinion and i think that the GIRM is very clear that no Bishop can just say that people can stand during the Consecration when there is no reason not to.

Fair enough, and I apologize for any mischaracterization.

But I would also say you are mistaken to prefer sitting to standing in cases when there is no kneeling. The GIRM is quite clear that “The faithful should stand … from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.” – ie: If the faithful are prevented from kneeling (as indicated), they ought to be standing.

tee

 

[tee_eff_em]

If the bishop is compelling you to violate the requirement of the Magisterium that all must be KNEELING from the consecration to the great “Amen” - except perhaps in faraway lands that have never traditionally kneeled - disobedience is not a sin.

Since the GIRM itself makes allowance for cases where the faithful are prevented from kneeling, it cannot be a “requirement of the Magisterium that all must be KNEELING”.

tee

 

[childofmary1143]

Fair enough, and I apologize for any mischaracterization.

But I would also say you are mistaken to prefer sitting to standing in cases when there is no kneeling. The GIRM is quite clear that “The faithful should stand … from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.” – ie: If the faithful are prevented from kneeling (as indicated), they ought to be standing.

tee

I have no problem with standing at that point in the Mass. But when the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) begins, it becomes so important that we kneel as Pope John Paul II said in Inaestimable Dominum (sorry for the misspelling) kneeling is an act of adoration and we can all agree that we MUST adore God especially when he comes to us in Physical Form before our very eyes.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

If the bishop is compelling you to violate the requirement of the Magisterium that all must be KNEELING from the consecration to the great “Amen” - except perhaps in faraway lands that have never traditionally kneeled - disobedience is not a sin. Where does one draw the line in response to innovations that a Bishop chooses to impose on the flock? The GIRM doesn’t explicitly condemn going up to communion in a kick-line formation, either. If that were required, would you do it because the Bishop said so?

Hi,

There does seem to be a basic difference here.

I was told (by a very conservative priest) that you are to obey unless you are told to do something against faith or morals. Certainly liturgical norms are not a serious matter against faith or morals.

I am not saying the bishop or priest is right, just that it is more wrong to be defiant or create a disruption during Mass.

re–The GIRM doesn’t explicitly condemn going up to communion in a kick-line formation, either. If that were required, would you do it because the Bishop said so?

This is a rediculous comparison–Standing is an acceptable liturgical posture, and the posture of the resurrection. Kneeling is a penetential posture.
from GIRM

1. …
   In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.5(emphesis mine)

Also it does say [or some other good reason]

Lux

 

[tee_eff_em]

I have no problem with standing at that point in the Mass.

I apologize again if I have misinterpreted you (“Personally I find standing for the Consecration to be bad form. If one can’t kneel for health or space then one should sit.”).

But when the Sanctus (Holy, Holy, Holy) begins, it becomes so important that we kneel as Pope John Paul II said in Inaestimable Dominum (sorry for the misspelling) kneeling is an act of adoration and we can all agree that we MUST adore God especially when he comes to us in Physical Form before our very eyes.

What the Servant of God, Pope John Paul II of blessed memory, wrote in *Inaestimabile Donum *was regarding the reception of the Eucharist while kneeling, and whether any other sign of reverence is called for in that circumstance (Answer: No, one is not).

Do you judge that our Eastern brethren somehow FAIL to adore God by their failure to kneel during the consecration?

tee

 

[Walking_Home]

Hi,

There does seem to be a basic difference here.

I was told (by a very conservative priest) that you are to obey unless you are told to do something against faith or morals. Certainly liturgical norms are not a serious matter against faith or morals.

I am not saying the bishop or priest is right, just that it is more wrong to be defiant or create a disruption during Mass.

This is a rediculous comparison–Standing is an acceptable liturgical posture, and the posture of the resurrection. ** Kneeling is a penetential posture.**
from GIRM

Also it does say [or some other good reason]

Lux

---

According to who----Not the Catholic Church. The following statement though given for posture during communion—well explains that for us Catholics—kneeling is a sure sign of adoration–not penetential.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/communion_denying.htm

“In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.”

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Yes, kneeling is a posture of adoration, but it is also penetential, while standing is the posture of the Ressurection.

Again I’m not saying that kneeling is wrong, just that standing is a reverant and acceptable posture.

This is from St Cyril parish stcyril.org/posture.html
and I have seen it elsewhere, plus heard it from conservative priests and seminarians.

Postures
Standing is a sign of respect and honor. From the earliest days of the Church, standing has been understood as the stance of those who are risen with Christ and seek the things that are above (see Colossians 5). When we stand for prayer, we are assuming our stature before God as a people redeemed by the blood of Christ. We stand when the celebrant and the other ministers process into the church. We stand for the Gospel because we acknowledge that it is Christ himself speaking to us when it is proclaimed. The bishops of the United States have chosen standing as the normal posture for the reception of Holy Communion in this country.

Kneeling signified penitence in the early Church: The awareness of our sin casts us to the ground! In the Middle Ages, kneeling came to signify the homage of a vassal before his liege lord. More recently, kneeling has come to signify humble adoration. It is for this reason that the bishops of the United States have chosen the posture of kneeling for the assembly during the Eucharistic Prayer, from after singing the Holy, Holy, until after singing the Great Amen

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

ps
What about this part of that post?

I was told (by a very conservative priest) that you are to obey unless you are told to do something against faith or morals. Certainly liturgical norms are not a serious matter against faith or morals.

I am not saying the bishop or priest is right, just that it is more wrong to be defiant or create a disruption during Mass.

 

[Walking_Home]

Yes, kneeling is a posture of adoration, but it is also penetential, while standing is the posture of the Ressurection.

Again I’m not saying that kneeling is wrong, just that standing is a reverant and acceptable posture.

This is from St Cyril parish stcyril.org/posture.html
and I have seen it elsewhere, plus heard it from conservative priests and seminarians.

---

You may have heard it—but to us Catholics—kneeling IS a sure sign of adoration.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Priests and seminarians are also Catholic, and so are those in Europe who stand for the Eucharistic Prayer.

 

[Walking_Home]

ps
What about this part of that post?
Quote:
I was told (by a very conservative priest) that you are to obey unless you are told to do something against faith or morals. Certainly liturgical norms are not a serious matter against faith or morals.

I am not saying the bishop or priest is right, just that it is more wrong to be defiant or create a disruption during Mass.

---

Can’t say about your conservative priest—but maybe he should get a better understanding of what Ars Celebrandi is.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis_en.html#Ars_celebrandi

Ars celebrandi

1. In the course of the Synod, there was frequent insistence on the need to avoid any antithesis between the ars celebrandi, the art of proper celebration, and the full, active and fruitful participation of all the faithful. The primary way to foster the participation of the People of God in the sacred rite is the proper celebration of the rite itself. The ars celebrandi is the best way to ensure their actuosa participatio. (114) The ars celebrandi is the fruit of faithful adherence to the liturgical norms in all their richness; indeed, for two thousand years this way of celebrating has sustained the faith life of all believers, called to take part in the celebration as the People of God, a royal priesthood, a holy nation (cf. 1 Pet 2:4-5, 9) (115).

The Bishop, celebrant par excellence

1. While it is true that the whole People of God participates in the eucharistic liturgy, a correct ars celebrandi necessarily entails a specific responsibility on the part of those who have received the sacrament of Holy Orders. Bishops, priests, and deacons, each according to his proper rank, must consider the celebration of the liturgy as their principal duty (116). Above all, this is true of the Diocesan Bishop: as “the chief steward of the mysteries of God in the particular Church entrusted to his care, he is the moderator, promoter, and guardian of the whole of its liturgical life” (117). This is essential for the life of the particular Church, not only because communion with the Bishop is required for the lawfulness of every celebration within his territory, but also because he himself is the celebrant par excellence within his Diocese (118). It is his responsibility to ensure unity and harmony in the celebrations taking place in his territory. Consequently the Bishop must be “determined that the priests, the deacons, and the lay Christian faithful grasp ever more deeply the genuine meaning of the rites and liturgical texts, and thereby be led to an active and fruitful celebration of the Eucharist” (119).** I would ask that every effort be made to ensure that the liturgies which the Bishop celebrates in his Cathedral are carried out with complete respect for the ars celebrandi, so that they can be considered an example for the entire Diocese **(120).

Respect for the liturgical books and the richness of signs

40.** Emphasizing the importance of the ars celebrandi also leads to an appreciation of the value of the liturgical norms**. (121) The ars celebrandi should foster a sense of the sacred and the use of outward signs which help to cultivate this sense, such as, for example, the harmony of the rite, the liturgical vestments, the furnishings and the sacred space. The eucharistic celebration is enhanced when priests and liturgical leaders are committed to making known the current liturgical texts and norms, making available the great riches found in the General Instruction of the Roman Missal and the Order of Readings for Mass. Perhaps we take it for granted that our ecclesial communities already know and appreciate these resources, but this is not always the case. These texts contain riches which have preserved and expressed the faith and experience of the People of God over its two-thousand-year history. Equally important for a correct ars celebrandi is an attentiveness to the various kinds of language that the liturgy employs: words and music, gestures and silence, movement, the liturgical colours of the vestments. By its very nature the liturgy operates on different levels of communication which enable it to engage the whole human person. The simplicity of its gestures and the sobriety of its orderly sequence of signs communicate and inspire more than any contrived and inappropriate additions. Attentiveness and fidelity to the specific structure of the rite express both a recognition of the nature of Eucharist as a gift and, on the part of the minister, a docile openness to receiving this ineffable gift.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

As I said, I am not saying the bishop or priest is right, just that it is more wrong to be defiant or create a disruption during Mass.

Do you feel it would be better to disrupt the Mass, rather than obey and discuss or report later?

Lux

 

[Walking_Home]

As I said, I am not saying the bishop or priest is right, just that it is more wrong to be defiant or create a disruption during Mass.

Do you feel it would be better to disrupt the Mass, rather than obey and discuss or report later?

Lux

---

That would depend. If by being obedient I would be reinforcing, acknowledging, giving credence to someones dis-obedience to the Church. If by being obedient — I make myself a pawn to be manipulated to undermine the Church.

 

[Walking_Home]

Priests and seminarians are also Catholic, and so are those in Europe who stand for the Eucharistic Prayer.

---

They should all be able to acknowledge that kneeling IS a sure form of adoration.