I
I_Believe
Guest
Thank you Brendan. I’ll read Fr Serpas’ comment.
- Status
I
I_Believe
Guest
Thistle, I get your point. You prefer venacular. Fine. You don’t see how the rest of us can learn prayers in Latin. Fine. No one is asking you to.
Now, you were upset with what I said to you. I was upset with you as well. You hijacked my thread.
Two wrongs don’t add up to much, but…
What does venacular vs Latin have to do with the topic ?
Out of 17 posts(not counting my own), I got 2 on topic. A relevent quote from Paramedicgirl and a wonderful recollection of the TLM by Marysann.
And one (welcome) correction to something I was wrong about.
14/17 posts off topic because you had to immediately contradict the very first on topic reply.
I don’t blame the others that debated you on this thread. Your posts begged for attention. You may not have meant to do it, but you hijacked the thread and ruined what might have been a pleasant discussion on The Laity and Their Role at a TLM.
Thistle, I’m not above apologizing to you for the cyber swing I took at you. So I will. Please accept it. I should have simply asked you to start a new thread.
Now, you were upset with what I said to you. I was upset with you as well. You hijacked my thread.
Two wrongs don’t add up to much, but…
What does venacular vs Latin have to do with the topic ?
Out of 17 posts(not counting my own), I got 2 on topic. A relevent quote from Paramedicgirl and a wonderful recollection of the TLM by Marysann.
And one (welcome) correction to something I was wrong about.
14/17 posts off topic because you had to immediately contradict the very first on topic reply.
I don’t blame the others that debated you on this thread. Your posts begged for attention. You may not have meant to do it, but you hijacked the thread and ruined what might have been a pleasant discussion on The Laity and Their Role at a TLM.
Thistle, I’m not above apologizing to you for the cyber swing I took at you. So I will. Please accept it. I should have simply asked you to start a new thread.
M
Marysann
Guest
I_Believe, I have to admitt that all of my Israeli friends are Catholic, and they are all very happy about the Moto Proprio, but I will try to answer your question from what I have read in the local newspapers. First of all, I am not an expert on Israel, but I have lived here for two years. On Sunday, July 8, the Jerusalem Post had a front page story with the headline " Pope’s revial of Latin Mass described as ‘body blow’ to Jewish-Catholic relations", “Benedict XVI slammed over prayer that calls for conversion of Jews.” The article quoted the National Director of the Anti-Defamation League as saying that it was "hurtful and insulting " for Catholics to pray for the conversion of the Jews. The rest of the article was actually quite accurate in reporting that the term “perfidious Jews” had been removed from the Good Friday service in 1959. The writer also quoted a few famous liberals, but ended by quoting a French bishop as saying that freeing the Tridentine Mass did not mean that they whole Church was becoming more fundamentalist.
As things calmed down, articles and letters to the editor appeared in the paper under the headline of “Why worry about other’s prayers.” For example, when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, helped Pope John Paul “though the theological minefield of recoonciliation with the Jewish people, culminating in the Pope’s visit to Yad Vashem [the holocast museum], and the Western Wall.” This visit meant a great deal to Israel. The letter also remined readers that there are a few prayers in their own liturgy that others might find offensive. He also praised Pope Benedict for trying to heal problems in the Church caused by rapid modernization, and wished that his own Jewish leaders would imitate him. He reminded his readers that the Holy Father is the most influential Christian leader in the world, and that he has openly challanged Islam. He ended by saying “Let’s get out noses out of other people’s prayers.”
David Rosen, the international director of interreligious affairs at the the American Jewish Committe, wrote an article “Mix realism with humility”, “How the Jewish community should react to the Catholic Church’s decision on the Latin Mass” which appeared in Sunday’s Jerusalem Post. He said that is was “completely incorrect” to think that the Church has changed its postion on its relationship with Judaism and the Jewish people.
(I’ll continue in the next post.)
As things calmed down, articles and letters to the editor appeared in the paper under the headline of “Why worry about other’s prayers.” For example, when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, helped Pope John Paul “though the theological minefield of recoonciliation with the Jewish people, culminating in the Pope’s visit to Yad Vashem [the holocast museum], and the Western Wall.” This visit meant a great deal to Israel. The letter also remined readers that there are a few prayers in their own liturgy that others might find offensive. He also praised Pope Benedict for trying to heal problems in the Church caused by rapid modernization, and wished that his own Jewish leaders would imitate him. He reminded his readers that the Holy Father is the most influential Christian leader in the world, and that he has openly challanged Islam. He ended by saying “Let’s get out noses out of other people’s prayers.”
David Rosen, the international director of interreligious affairs at the the American Jewish Committe, wrote an article “Mix realism with humility”, “How the Jewish community should react to the Catholic Church’s decision on the Latin Mass” which appeared in Sunday’s Jerusalem Post. He said that is was “completely incorrect” to think that the Church has changed its postion on its relationship with Judaism and the Jewish people.
(I’ll continue in the next post.)
M
Marysann
Guest
He stated that the most vocifeous objections to the freer use of the Tridentine Mass have come from liberal Catholics who fear that it signals a reversal of liturgical and other freedoms. He reminded his readers that the Catholic Church as a commission to promote relations with World Jewry, and that she has abandoned any institutional mission to the Jews. He hopes that the Church will understand that any prayers for the conversion of the Jews will not be seen as “an expression of mutual respect.” He reminds his readers that even though the Catholic Church has rejected proselytism and “a mission to the Jews” as inapropriate, not all Christian groups have. He expresses his respect for the the power and influence of the Catholic Church in the world, and that the international Jewish community has a lot at stake, and a lot to gain in their relationship with the Church. Rosen cautions his readers to watch out how they “publicly address this relationship and how we express our expectations and even our disappointments.”
This made big news in the paper because Israelis are naturally sensitive about any perceived slights to Judaism. I am not an expert, but I doubt that most Israelis care much about this issue at all. With all of the unrest in this region, the Israelis have more important things to worry about.
I apologize if I have gotten too far off the the subject of this tread, but I wanted to answer I_Believe’s question.
This made big news in the paper because Israelis are naturally sensitive about any perceived slights to Judaism. I am not an expert, but I doubt that most Israelis care much about this issue at all. With all of the unrest in this region, the Israelis have more important things to worry about.
I apologize if I have gotten too far off the the subject of this tread, but I wanted to answer I_Believe’s question.
M
Melanie01
Guest
As one of the congregation that attends a chapel that offers Tridentine Mass, I spoke and understood no Latin when I started attending. I can speak no Latin nor understand Latin outside of the Mass…with a missal I have learnt the responses and learned my catechism. The Tridentine Mass is Christ centred, the priest leads the congregation in offering praise to the Lord…it is beautiful…I never tire of it…it takes some time to get the hang of the Missa Cantata as so many things happen together.
On Sunday…the epistle and the gospel are read in English before the homily for added instruction as there may be folk who are just visiting for the first time.
On Sunday…the epistle and the gospel are read in English before the homily for added instruction as there may be folk who are just visiting for the first time.
T
thistle
Guest
There you go again publicly stating a lie about me. I have nothing against Latin or a Latin Mass. In fact I’ve asked our local priest if he intends to have one of the 10 Masses we have have on Sundays in Latin because I would be interested in attending. Stop trying to think you know what is in my mind. Only God knows that or are you trying to put yourself on an equal footing with him?
I expect you to now give me a public apology.
P
Petite
Guest
I grew up in the pre-Vatican II Church, and I assisted at plenty of Masses in Latin. (Back in those days, children in Catholic elementary schools went to Mass every day. At my school, Mass was at 8 AM, and after Mass, we ate breakfast at our desks before we started our classes. Our first class was relgion.)
When I was in the 5th grade, I received a St. Joseph’s Missal, which I faithfully took to Mass every day. (And, I still have this prayer book, along with my late father’s prayerbook, which he, as a Methodist going to Mass with our family, always used.)
The OP asked what people did during the Mass. My recollection is that some followed along with the priest in their prayer books. Some prayed their rosaries or other devotionals. Some went to confession–during the daily Masses–never at the Sunday Masses. Some fell asleep–especially if it was a low Mass-- it was very quiet! A high Mass with a good choir (–my parish back then had an outstanding men’s choir!), was very inspirational to hear. It was even better when the priest saying the high Mass could carry a tune. Some, as I recall, were only marginal singers. I remember when I was in the 8th grade, we sang hymns throughout the Sunday low Masses, only stopping for the Gospel, the sermon, and the consecration.
I am in agreement with Thistle about wanting to think about what every word and expression means as I hear/speak it. I remember wondering WHY we had to have Mass in Latin–when I was quite young! And this was before I even realized what Vatican II was about! It was very difficult to learn some of the Latin text of the hymns. (It was very difficult to keep straight how the NO would be–we studied that in religion class and took quizzes on it! I didn’t do that well, as I recall!)
I think there was a growing fatigue among some Catholics in the time before Vatican II --the Mass was the samo-samo. Catholics packed the churches back then–but, I don’t believe that meant we were more devout than the Catholics of today. FWIW, there was a LOT of guilt in American society back then if you DIDN’T go to church on Sunday. People often judged your moral character on your church attendance. Lazy people slept in on Sunday. I remember my oldest sister (as a young adult who was out partying late on Saturday nights) dragging herself out of bed on Sunday to make it to the ‘noon show’, as she referred to the noon Mass.
It IS edifying to read of the devotion that many express here for the sacred liturgy. I would wager that those in attendance at the Latin Masses of today are far more devout than those of the pre-Vatican II church.
I was ecstatic when parts of the Mass were in English! I may go to a Latin Mass more out of nostalgia than worship. I do find that the words of the liturgy in English stay with me more than Latin ever did. (Although, I still can read the words to Tatum Ergo and O Salutaris–but, I didn’t realize for years what we were singing!)
I have studied three foreign languages (none of which was Latin), and I am quite familiar with what goes into language learning. For me, an all-English Mass is more meaningful than a Latin Mass–even with a translation in front of me. There is an emotional connect I have with English that I never acquired with the Latin.
If having Mass in Latin and in English unites the Church and brings us closer to Our Lord, then let’s move forward!
J
JKirkLVNV
Guest
Or it could simply be that outside of some exceptional circumstances, it simply makes sense to have the Mass in the language of the congregation hearing it. And as some of you are looking askance at Thistle, some of us wonder why there is such a predjudice against the Mass in the vernacular, not against bad translations, but against the whole idea of the Mass in the vernacular.
But as one person has said, we have the ordinary form, you have the extraordinary. Let’s leave it at that.
R
Resurrexit
Guest
Advice once given to someone going to the traditional Mass for the first time:
“Sit down, shut up, and don’t sing the Pater noster.”
“Sit down, shut up, and don’t sing the Pater noster.”
C
CatholicNick
Guest
Advice once given to someone going to the traditional Mass for the first time:
“Sit down, shut up, and don’t sing the Pater noster.”
Very good!
B
BobP123
Guest
You forget the other languages. Masses in English overall aren’t that many. And I fail to see how splitting people up into different cultures can unite. With every new vernacular, I see more division.
B
BobP123
Guest
Except for the priest, everyone’s the same at the TLM. Egos need not be satisfied.Advice once given to someone going to the traditional Mass for the first time:
“Sit down, shut up, and don’t sing the Pater noster.”
R
rwoehmke
Guest
Latin was the easily used sign of unity of the Church, even dopes could grasp it. The oneness of the Church is far deeper than mere language.
P
Petite
Guest
YES!
I did forget that, and I apologize! Yet, I don’t see that this is more division. I agree too that the unity of the Church is deeper than one language. Good point, rwoehmke!
J
Jean_Anthony
Guest
This thread is closed. Thank you all.
- Status