The Last Supper

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psychiatrist

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I’m engaged in a debate with a staunch Protestant who obviously believes the Eucharist is symbolic. His argument revolves around the following: “again, if Christ was speaking literally, then why did He not offer His own flesh or blood at any time (e.g. at the Last Supper) while He was still with the Apostles?”

My understanding is that Jesus did offer his own flesh at the Last Supper when he said “This is my body”. Any rebuttals here or strong arguments here would be appreciated.
 
I’m engaged in a debate with a staunch Protestant who obviously believes the Eucharist is symbolic. His argument revolves around the following: “again, if Christ was speaking literally, then why did He not offer His own flesh or blood at any time (e.g. at the Last Supper) while He was still with the Apostles?”

My understanding is that Jesus did offer his own flesh at the Last Supper when he said “This is my body”. Any rebuttals here or strong arguments here would be appreciated.
You could start with this from [St. Paul in 1 Corinithians 11:23-32 (http://www.usccb.org/bible/1corinthians/11).

Here, Paul warns the peoples of Corinth that some of them who are partaking of the Body and Blood are dying are have died because they have failed to recognize that the Body and Blood must only be partaken “worthly” (while not in a grave state of sin).

Ask your friend, if the Eucharist was just symbolic (as some Corinthians believed in Paul’s account), why would they die from ingesting a mere symbol?

Then point your friend to Matthew 5:17. Christ says, simply: “I did not come to abolish the law or the prophets, but to fulfill them.”

What was the “law and the prophets?” but the teachings of God and the law and traditions formed by God through Moses–what we call the Old Covenant. These teachings formed:
  • God ordering the faithful to offer up a fine animal for sacrifice for atonement of sins (often a lamb)
  • A ministerial priesthood whose purpose was to teach the faithful as well as make the offerings available to God on the altar
  • Over time, the traditions that God established were codified into writing: Scripture
Christ came to earth and broadened the framework of the Old Covenant to form a new one:
  • Christ picked 12 men to serve as his first priests
  • Christ, the Lamb of God, offered himself as the perfect sinless sacrifice that truly abolished sin
  • Christ’s teachings were passed on by word through the Apostles and priests and bishops they appoint, eventually codifying Christ’s teachings into Scripture
**Christ’s words in John 6 **made it clear to his followers that, without the eating of His Body and Blood, salvation was impossible. He did not use hyperbole or parable here as Christ sometimes did in teaching. In fact, He repeats himself again and again as his followers continually re-asked what he meant, thinking he was trying to be symbolic (the Greek text shows He changes his words to eat to clearly indicate consumption and chewing).

The followers would not have left in droves, as Scripture shows after this exchange, if Christ was being symbolic. The followers who left clearly understood Christ’s literalness and were appalled that Christ suggested a form of cannibalism.

Of course, Christ was doing nothing of the kind. At the Last Supper, reflecting on the ancient story of the priest Melchizedek, He tells his followers, “This is my body,” holding up bread. He does not say, “This represents my body” or any other metaphoric phrase. We believe that Christ’s real presence (John 6) exists in place of the consecrated bread and wine not because a priest says so, but because God said so.

The Real Presence must exist because Christ would have been lying otherwise in Matthew 5:17. He replaced the lambs with himself as the perfect Lamb. He established a new priesthood to carry out this Sacrifice.

If your friend questions that Catholics “re-sacrifice Christ” at every Mass, research and explain the Passover. Even after centuries since Moses, Jews who celebrate the Passover speak of it in the present tense, that “today,” the Lord led the Hebrews out of Egypt. The one eternal Sacrifice of our Lord on the Cross is also timeless. We celebrate the one sacrifice for sin because it fulfills the practice seen in the Old Covenant. There was only one Exodus and there was only One Sacrifice. Both are eternal.
 
…My understanding is that Jesus did offer his own flesh at the Last Supper when he said “This is my body”. Any rebuttals here or strong arguments here would be appreciated.
Yes, Catholics do believe Jesus gave the apostles His flesh to eat at the Last Supper – because that is what He said He was doing.

“This is My Body” – “Take and eat”
 
I’m engaged in a debate with a staunch Protestant who obviously believes the Eucharist is symbolic. His argument revolves around the following: “again, if Christ was speaking literally, then why did He not offer His own flesh or blood at any time (e.g. at the Last Supper) while He was still with the Apostles?”

My understanding is that Jesus did offer his own flesh at the Last Supper when he said “This is my body”. Any rebuttals here or strong arguments here would be appreciated.
psychiatrist,

I think we need to understand the objection more before we can interact with it.

It seems to me that what he is saying is something like “why didn’t Christ cut off pieces of his flesh, or fill up a cup with blood from a wound while he was still alive”? Is that the sense you have of his objection?

If so, then I would answer the reason is because that wasn’t what Christ intended, nor what we could have borne, nor would it be able to be perpetuated practically, that it would involve pain, self mutilation, or, if not, then at least the appearance of it, and at the very least it would be unpalatable to us. In short – it just wouldn’t have worked very well.

So, He found a way to give Himself in a form that we could receive and which doesn’t depend on harming him, nor depend on where He is locally at the moment, nor which moment. So that he can be in many places at the same time, unharmed, and locally in Heaven as well.

(And yes, He did give his Body and Blood at the last supper, and held it in His own hands)

VC
 
I’m engaged in a debate with a staunch Protestant who obviously believes the Eucharist is symbolic. His argument revolves around the following: “again, if Christ was speaking literally, then why did He not offer His own flesh or blood at any time (e.g. at the Last Supper) while He was still with the Apostles?”

My understanding is that Jesus did offer his own flesh at the Last Supper when he said “This is my body”. Any rebuttals here or strong arguments here would be appreciated.
From a “protestant” perspective, I would ask what your friend thinks of Martin Luther. If there’s a positive response, offer this quote.
Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that it is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.
Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.”
Just a thought.

Jon
 
Yes, most Protestants attack the Eucharist. This demonstrates that opponents of the Church recognize one of Catholicism’s core doctrines. Which means they’re not always literalists. This is seen in their interpretation of the key biblical passage, sixth chapter of John’s Gospel, in which Christ speaks about the sacrament that will be instituted at the Last Supper.
John 6:30 says the Jews asked Jesus if he could do a miracle so that they might believe in him. As a challenge, they noted that “our ancestors ate manna in the desert.” Could Jesus top that? He told them the real bread from heaven comes from God. “Give us this bread always,” they said. Jesus replied, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger, and whoever believes in me will never thirst.” At this point the Jews understood him to be speaking metaphorically.
Jesus first repeated what he said, then summarized: “‘I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.’ The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’” (John 6:51–52).
His listeners were stupefied because now they understood Jesus literally—and correctly. He again repeated his words, but with even greater emphasis, and introduced the statement about drinking his blood: “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him” (John 6:53–56).
Notice that Jesus made no attempt to soften what he said, no attempt to correct “misunderstandings,” for there were none. Our Lord’s listeners understood him perfectly well. They no longer thought he was speaking metaphorically. If they had, if they mistook what he said, why no correction?
On other occasions when there was confusion, Christ explained just what he meant (cf. Matt. 16:5–12). Here, where any misunderstanding would be fatal, there was no effort by Jesus to correct. Instead, he repeated himself for greater emphasis.
In John 6:60 we read: “Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?’” These were his disciples, people used to his remarkable ways. He warned them not to think carnally, but spiritually: “It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life” (John 6:63; cf. 1 Cor. 2:12–14).
But he did not correct these protesters. Twelve times he said he was the bread that came down from heaven; four times he said they would have “to eat my flesh and drink my blood.” John 6 was an extended promise of what would be instituted at the Last Supper and it was a promise that could not be more explicit. Or so it would seem to a Catholic. Fundamentalists say that in John 6 Jesus was not talking about physical food and drink, but about spiritual food and drink. They quote John 6:35: “Jesus said to them, ‘I am the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, and he who believes in me shall never thirst.’” They claim that coming to him is bread, having faith in him is drink. Thus, eating his flesh and blood merely means believing in Christ.
But there is a problem with that interpretation. As Fr. John A. O’Brien explains, “The phrase ‘to eat the flesh and drink the blood,’ when used figuratively among the Jews, as among the Arabs of today, meant to inflict upon a person some serious injury, especially by calumny or by false accusation. To interpret the phrase figuratively then would be to make our Lord promise life everlasting to the culprit for slandering and hating him, which would reduce the whole passage to utter nonsense.” For an example of this use, see Micah 3:3.
Anti-Catholic writers who comment on John 6 also assert that one can show Christ was speaking only metaphorically by comparing verses like John 10:9 and John 15:1. The problem is that there is not a connection to John 6:35, “I am the bread of life.” “I am the door” and “I am the vine” make sense as metaphors because Christ is like a door—we go to heaven through him—and he is also like a vine—we get our spiritual sap through him. But Christ takes John 6:35 far beyond symbolism by saying, “For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed” (John 6:55).
He continues: “As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me” (John 6:57). The Greek word used for “eats” (trogon) is very blunt and has the sense of “chewing” or “gnawing.” This is not the language of metaphor.
Are we to understand that Christ had just commanded his disciples to eat his flesh, then said their doing so would be pointless? Is that what “the flesh is of no avail” means? “Eat my flesh, but you’ll find it’s a waste of time”—is that what he was saying? Hardly.
The fact is that Christ’s flesh avails much! If it were of no avail, then the Son of God incarnated for no reason, he died for no reason, and he rose from the dead for no reason. Christ’s flesh profits us more than anyone else’s in the world. If it profits us nothing, so that the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ are of no avail, then “your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished” (1 Cor. 15:17–18).
In John 6:63 “flesh profits nothing” refers to mankind’s inclination to think using only what their natural human reason would tell them rather than what God would tell them. Thus in John 8:15–16 Jesus tells his opponents: “You judge according to the flesh, I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he who sent me.”
 
I’m engaged in a debate with a staunch Protestant who obviously believes the Eucharist is symbolic. His argument revolves around the following: “again, if Christ was speaking literally, then why did He not offer His own flesh or blood at any time (e.g. at the Last Supper) while He was still with the Apostles?”

My understanding is that Jesus did offer his own flesh at the Last Supper when he said “This is my body”. Any rebuttals here or strong arguments here would be appreciated.
The sacrifice of Christ on the cross took place in time and space, but the offering of it by Christ to the Father took place in eternity, therefore, the Eucharist was always present in eternity for the truths of God are eternal not temporal only, as we see in these verses found by doing a simple word search:

Matt.13:35 This was to fulfil what was spoken by the prophet: “I will open my mouth in parables,
I will utter what has been hidden since the foundation of the
world
.”

Matt.25:34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

Luke.11:50 that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation,

Eph.1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

Heb.4:3 For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath,
`They shall never enter my rest,’” although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb.9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

1Pet.1:20 He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake.

Rev.13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, every one whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain.
 
psychiatrist,

I think we need to understand the objection more before we can interact with it.

It seems to me that what he is saying is something like “why didn’t Christ cut off pieces of his flesh, or fill up a cup with blood from a wound while he was still alive”? Is that the sense you have of his objection?

If so, then I would answer the reason is because that wasn’t what Christ intended, nor what we could have borne, nor would it be able to be perpetuated practically, that it would involve pain, self mutilation, or, if not, then at least the appearance of it, and at the very least it would be unpalatable to us. In short – it just wouldn’t have worked very well.

So, He found a way to give Himself in a form that we could receive and which doesn’t depend on harming him, nor depend on where He is locally at the moment, nor which moment. So that he can be in many places at the same time, unharmed, and locally in Heaven as well.

(And yes, He did give his Body and Blood at the last supper, and held it in His own hands)

VC
I think the objection is that if those particular Protestants (symbolic minded ones) were to admit that the Catholic Church is right about this, and if the Catholic Church is right about this, then what else is the Catholic Church right about. Before you know it their personal brand of theology starts to crumble and then Heaven Forbid they would have to convert. 😃
 
During the Old Testament period, God did many things to prepare people for various Christian ideas and themes. This is called biblical typology.

For example, Moses and King David were Old Testament “types” of Christ (i.e., some of the messianic prophecies described the Messiah as being a prophet like Moses, and a king in the lineage of David). The Great Flood is a typology of baptism, and there are a number of other typologies as well.

Naturally, the New Testament fulfillment is always greater than the Old Testament typology. For example, whereas Moses was a prophet who preached the Word of God, Christ is the Word of God in the flesh. Whereas David was a king over a certain nation at a certain time, Christ is the eternal King of kings over all the universe. Whereas the Great Flood destroyed evil at a certain time in history (but did not provide for the forgiveness of sin), baptism has the power to wash away all a person’s sins and completely reconcile him with God.

In the 6th Chapter of John, Jesus directly compares and contrasts his Body and Blood with the manna the Jews ate in the wilderness. Therefore, according to Christ himself, the manna was a typology for the Eucharist. According to Catholicism, the Eucharist is much greater than manna (or anything else in creation) because it is the Real Body and Blood of Christ.

Let us keep in mind that the Jews in the wilderness were provided real food in the form of manna, which was prepared by the angels and miraculously appeared each day. So the manna resulted from a miracle and a person could not say that the manna was only a symbol.

If a person says that the Eucharist is “only a symbol” of Christ, then how does that stack up against what the Jews experienced in the manna? So God fed the Jews miraculous bread from heaven but feeds Christians with ordinary bread that can be considered symbolic? Sounds like Christians got “shortchanged”, and this mentality seems to be a direct contradiction against how Jesus described his Body and Blood in John 6. After all, he emphasized that his Body and Blood was far greater than the manna.

If the Eucharist is “only a symbol” of Christ, then this would be the one and only case of a New Testament fulfillment being lesser than its Old Testament typology!!! But that is not how biblical typology works! Christians can, and do, define the Eucharist in different ways, but based on what I have presented, each Christian is challenged to define the Eucharist in a manner that clearly demonstrates that it is superior to the miraculous experience of the manna. Catholic and Orthodox Christian doctrines concerning the Eucharist obviously do just that.
 
As a P.S. to my above post, let me make a slight correction regarding my terminology:

“Typology” is the term that refers to the study of biblical “types”. So when I made statements like, “The New Testament fulfillment is always greater than the Old Testament typology”, I should have said,
“…than the Old Testament type.”

Alas! I wish I had a nickle for all the corrections that didn’t occur to me until long after CAF’s 20-minute editing timer ran out. I’d probably have enough money to buy a nice little island, like Manhattan.
 
psychiatrist,

I think we need to understand the objection more before we can interact with it.

It seems to me that what he is saying is something like “why didn’t Christ cut off pieces of his flesh, or fill up a cup with blood from a wound while he was still alive”? Is that the sense you have of his objection?

If so, then I would answer the reason is because that wasn’t what Christ intended, nor what we could have borne, nor would it be able to be perpetuated practically, that it would involve pain, self mutilation, or, if not, then at least the appearance of it, and at the very least it would be unpalatable to us. In short – it just wouldn’t have worked very well.

So, He found a way to give Himself in a form that we could receive and which doesn’t depend on harming him, nor depend on where He is locally at the moment, nor which moment. So that he can be in many places at the same time, unharmed, and locally in Heaven as well.

(And yes, He did give his Body and Blood at the last supper, and held it in His own hands)

VC
Yes, i think you are right. that is what they want to see. protestant needs to see to believe. that is why they say if it is not splicitly written the words, they dont believe is there. YOu know things like, because the name Catholic is not in the Bible then she is not the Church found by Christ. while their belief system is not found by Christ, we can only understand this is that to them the Church found by Christ is no longer here. trying to reason with them is quite dificult.
 
I’m engaged in a debate with a staunch Protestant who obviously believes the Eucharist is symbolic. His argument revolves around the following: “again, if Christ was speaking literally, then why did He not offer His own flesh or blood at any time (e.g. at the Last Supper) while He was still with the Apostles?”

My understanding is that Jesus did offer his own flesh at the Last Supper when he said “This is my body”. Any rebuttals here or strong arguments here would be appreciated.
First of all never underestimate the ability of protestants to confuse the physical with the spiritual especially when it benefits their belief system. In John 6 we find the discourse on the Eucharist. Here Jesus compares and contrasts the Eucharist with the OT manna. Notice when speaking of the manna the Jews understood him to be speaking literally of a material food. They all knew the story as it was often repeated while they were growing up. But note they knew it literally as well as materially. However, when Jesus speaks of the Eucharist, this new bread from heaven which is His flesh the Jews contine to think in terms of literalness and materialness. They were therefore aghast at His words. To them Jesus was speaking cannibalism. His words were to hard to bear. So they, along with some disciples turned away. So what explanation does Jesus give. He says His words were spirit. That’s it. The Jews understood Him literally and materially but Jesus was speaking literally and spiritually. They did not get it and neither do the protestants. So when Jesus holds up the bread and says at the Last Supper, “This is my Body…” It is literally His body in a spiritual manner. And that is what the Church conveys in the doctrine of Transsubstantiation.

I would like to think that in John 6 when Peter answers the Lord by saying, To whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life" that he got it, that he understood what Jesus was saying. But I am not sure, given his later actions of denying Christ.
 
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