The Last Supper

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frangiuliano115 said:
Please post both.
Pope Paul VI’s encyclical is about number 40 or so.
I’m not familiar with what the Catholic Encyclopedia says.
Should we check with the CCC too?

Which would be no. 1343, BTW.

Are our priests not to be trusted? Didn’t they study enough?

If you post both, readers will be able to make up their own mind. I’m not asking anyone to believe me.
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The Catechism:

CCC 1323 — “At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice** of his Body and Blood.** This he did in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet ‘in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.’”

Which is taken nearly word for word from Sacrosanctum Concilium that I have already posted:

“At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed,** our Savior instituted the Eucharistic Sacrifice of his Body and Blood.** He did this in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the centuries until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a paschal banquet in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us” (Sacrosanctum Concilium 47).

In the Catholic Encyclopedia, under the article Liturgy of the Mass and the subtitled Origin of the Mass, it says "The Western Mass, like all Liturgies, begins, of course, with** the Last Supper.** What Christ then did, repeated as he commanded in memory of Him, is the nucleus of the Mass. "
 
Faith1960 said:
Then how could it be Jesus, if He could walk through walls and such only after He was glorified?
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  1. If it isn’t Jesus, then who could it be?
  2. What does one have to do with the other? Jesus was true God and true Man from the moment of His conception. How can you place any limits on Him regardless as to whether He was glorified or not?
 
Bl. Pope Paul VI wrote in his Credo:
  1. We believe that the Mass, celebrated by the priest representing the person of Christ by virtue of the power received through the Sacrament of Orders, and offered by him in the name of Christ and the members of His Mystical Body, is the sacrifice of Calvary rendered sacramentally present on our altars. We believe that as the bread and wine consecrated by the Lord at the Last Supper were changed into His body and His blood which were to be offered for us on the cross, likewise the bread and wine consecrated by the priest are changed into the body and blood of Christ enthroned gloriously in heaven, and we believe that the mysterious presence of the Lord, under what continues to appear to our senses as before, is a true, real and substantial presence"
Credo of the People of God Bl. Pope Paul VI Emp added…

w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/motu_proprio/documents/hf_p-vi_motu-proprio_19680630_credo.html
 
Faith1960 said:
Then how could it be Jesus, if He could walk through walls and such only after He was glorified?
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Setting aside here the question at hand and just addressing this sentence.

Note that Jesus prior to his resurrection - walked on water, took a few loaves of bread and fed thousands, changed water into wine etc…
 
Bl. Pope Paul VI wrote in his Credo:
  1. We believe that the Mass, celebrated by the priest representing the person of Christ by virtue of the power received through the Sacrament of Orders, and offered by him in the name of Christ and the members of His Mystical Body, is the sacrifice of Calvary rendered sacramentally present on our altars. We believe that as the bread and wine consecrated by the Lord at the Last Supper were changed into His body and His blood which were to be offered for us on the cross, likewise the bread and wine consecrated by the priest are changed into the body and blood of Christ enthroned gloriously in heaven, and we believe that the mysterious presence of the Lord, under what continues to appear to our senses as before, is a true, real and substantial presence"
Credo of the People of God Bl. Pope Paul VI Emp added…

w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/motu_proprio/documents/hf_p-vi_motu-proprio_19680630_credo.html
 
Tim_D said:
The Catechism:

CCC 1323 — “At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, our Savior instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice** of his Body and Blood.** This he did in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the ages until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved Spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a Paschal banquet ‘in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us.’”

Which is taken nearly word for word from Sacrosanctum Concilium that I have already posted:

“At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed,** our Savior instituted the Eucharistic Sacrifice of his Body and Blood.** He did this in order to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross throughout the centuries until he should come again, and so to entrust to his beloved spouse, the Church, a memorial of his death and resurrection: a sacrament of love, a sign of unity, a bond of charity, a paschal banquet in which Christ is consumed, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge of future glory is given to us” (Sacrosanctum Concilium 47).

In the Catholic Encyclopedia, under the article Liturgy of the Mass and the subtitled Origin of the Mass, it says "The Western Mass, like all Liturgies, begins, of course, with** the Last Supper.** What Christ then did, repeated as he commanded in memory of Him, is the nucleus of the Mass. "
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It says INSTITUTED.

Also, you left out what I asked you to read:

CCC no. 1343, you could start with 1341.
 
Bookcat said:
Setting aside here the question at hand and just addressing this sentence.

Note that Jesus prior to his resurrection - walked on water, took a few loaves of bread and fed thousands, changed water into wine etc…
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Before He was glorified could He walk through walls and do the things He did after He was glorified?
 
St. Augustine notes that Christ carried himself in his own hands…

Yes a mystery of mysteries…the depths of divine realities…
 
frangiuliano115 said:
It says INSTITUTED.

Also, you left out what I asked you to read:

CCC no. 1343, you could start with 1341.
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The Eucharistic Sacrifice IS the Mass.

For Jesus to INSTITUTE it requires the He celebrate it which is what He did when He said, “this is my body…this is my blood,” the exact thing that is said each and every time a priest says Mass today.

1341 The command of Jesus to repeat his actions and words “until he comes” does not only ask us to remember Jesus and what he did. It is directed at the liturgical celebration, by the apostles and their successors, of the memorial of Christ, of his life, of his death, of his Resurrection, and of his intercession in the presence of the Father.

Are you suggesting that this means that the Last Supper was some sort of “dry run” for the apostles?
 
Faith1960 said:
Before He was glorified could He walk through walls and do the things He did after He was glorified?
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I would imagine that he could walk through a wall …physical laws of creation were what that were via him…the Logos …the Son of God.

(not that he did for he had not reason to but saved that for later when such would be more apt)

Remember too the reality of his transfiguration…

Prior to the Resurrection.
 
Catechism:

621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: “This is my body which is given for you” (Lk 22:19).

scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a4p2.htm#621
 
Catechism:

612 The cup of the New Covenant, which Jesus anticipated when he offered himself at the Last Supper…
 
Bookcat said:
Bl. Pope Paul VI wrote in his Credo:
  1. **We believe that the Mass, celebrated by the priest representing the person of Christ by virtue of the power received through the Sacrament of Orders, and offered by him in the name of Christ and the members of His Mystical Body, is the sacrifice of Calvary **rendered sacramentally present on our altars. We believe that as the bread and wine consecrated by the Lord at the Last Supper were changed into His body and His blood which were to be offered for us on the cross, likewise the bread and wine consecrated by the priest are changed into the body and blood of Christ enthroned gloriously in heaven, and we believe that the mysterious presence of the Lord, under what continues to appear to our senses as before, is a true, real and substantial presence"
Credo of the People of God Bl. Pope Paul VI Emp added…

w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/motu_proprio/documents/hf_p-vi_motu-proprio_19680630_credo.html
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Bookcat

You’re addressing whether or not the bread and wine were changed.
Tim is discussing if the Last Supper was the first Mass.

Read the beginning of your post above…

We believe that the Mass, celebrated by the priest representing the person of Christ by virtue of the power received through the Sacrament of Orders, and offered by him in the name of Christ and the members of His Mystical Body, is the sacrifice of Calvary

At the Last Supper the sacrifice at Calvary had not happened yet, so how could it have been the first Mass, which is a re-presentation of the sacrifice at Calvary…
 
This “remembrance” spoken of does not imply only remembering a past event. This was a Passover meal, and to a Jew, the sense of remembrance of the Passover included past, present, and future. It was not merely celebrating a memory, it was living the experience as well in the present as if they were there, and knowing it would continue into the future because God made it a perpetual event. Christ could say “This is my body” as well as “which will be given up for you” because the event is eternal, outside of the boundaries of time and space. When He says “do this in memory of me” He is speaking in the eternal sense that the Jewish people were very familiar with, not the linear sense of time we think of. So the Sacrifice of the Mass is an eternal sacrifice, and the Last Supper was the first Mass and where He instituted the Eucharist. To claim it was not the first Mass is not consistent with the eternal sacrifice of Christ’s body and blood. What Jesus did was done in eternity.

There is no reason why Jesus could not walk through walls. He is God. If He could walk on water, turn water into wine, cure blindness, leprosy, and deafness before His glorified state, He could walk through a wall if He chose to. The glorified body of Jesus is a reminder that our bodies will also one day be glorified and we too will not be limited to time, space, and place. We will be like Christ.
 
frangiuliano115 said:
Bookcat

You’re addressing whether or not the bread and wine were changed.
Tim is discussing if the Last Supper was the first Mass.

Read the beginning of your post above…

We believe that the Mass, celebrated by the priest representing the person of Christ by virtue of the power received through the Sacrament of Orders, and offered by him in the name of Christ and the members of His Mystical Body, is the sacrifice of Calvary

At the Last Supper the sacrifice at Calvary had not happened yet, so how could it have been the first Mass, which is a re-presentation of the sacrifice at Calvary…
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Actually, we were discussing how,Jesus could turn Himself into the Eucharist at the Last Supper.
 
CB_Catholic said:
This “remembrance” spoken of does not imply only remembering a past event. This was a Passover meal, and to a Jew, the sense of remembrance of the Passover included past, present, and future. It was not merely celebrating a memory, it was living the experience as well in the present as if they were there, and knowing it would continue into the future because God made it a perpetual event. Christ could say “This is my body” as well as “which will be given up for you” because the event is eternal, outside of the boundaries of time and space. When He says “do this in memory of me” He is speaking in the eternal sense that the Jewish people were very familiar with, not the linear sense of time we think of. So the Sacrifice of the Mass is an eternal sacrifice, and the Last Supper was the first Mass and where He instituted the Eucharist. To claim it was not the first Mass is not consistent with the eternal sacrifice of Christ’s body and blood. What Jesus did was done in eternity.

There is no reason why Jesus could not walk through walls. He is God. If He could walk on water, turn water into wine, cure blindness, leprosy, and deafness before His glorified state, He could walk through a wall if He chose to. The glorified body of Jesus is a reminder that our bodies will also one day be glorified and we too will not be limited to time, space, and place. We will be like Christ.
Click to expand...
So He had the power to walk through walls before His glorification? Then He had the power to turn Himself into the Eucharist, right?
 
Faith1960 said:
So He had the power to walk through walls before His glorification? Then He had the power to turn Himself into the Eucharist, right?
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Listen to what he is saying. If Jesus had the power to perform miracles before His glorification at the resurrection, then Jesus always had the power to do whatever He wished. Jesus is God. God is Jesus. Stop trying to limit what He can and cannot do.
 
frangiuliano115 said:
Bookcat

You’re addressing whether or not the bread and wine were changed.
Tim is discussing if the Last Supper was the first Mass.

Read the beginning of your post above…
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Please read the quote again…beyond your excerpt…That is not the reason I quoted it.
 
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