T
Tim_D
Guest
Jesus said, “I am the bread of life.”
He did not say, “I will turn this bread into me.”
- Status
He did not say, “I will turn this bread into me.”
B
Bookcat
Guest
The Eucharist IS Jesus.
T
Tim_D
Guest
Actually, I am. The question was, “when was the first Mass?”
I have provided ample teachings from the Church that the Last Supper was, indeed, the first Mass.
B
Bookcat
Guest
I actually deleted that part (I mistook “tim” for the first poster…)
Your too quick in your replies.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Catechism:
621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: “This is my body which is given for you” (Lk 22:19).
scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a4p2.htm#621
621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: “This is my body which is given for you” (Lk 22:19).
scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a4p2.htm#621
F
frangiuliano115
Guest
Hi Bookcat
These threads move along quickly.
We were actually discussing whether or not the Last Supper was the first Mass before you came onboard.
If you care to, you could read my post no. 7 and 8. Tim isn’t in agreement.
I kind of thought priests knew what they were talking about but apparently Tim doesn’t.
Every priest and nun I’ve ever known has not believed that the Last Supper was the first Mass. It comes up in discussion because kids have to be taught this. It was Instituted but not Celebrated - which makes perfect sense to me.
Good night
Fran
B
Bookcat
Guest
Twas not the subject of the thread (see first post)…hence that was not what I was responding to.
T
Tim_D
Guest
And I thought that the teaching authority of the Church, through her documents and through the catechism “knew what they were taking about.”
You take a webpage from the internet and ascribe more to it than you do the authority of the Church.
INSTITUE (verb used with an object)
to inaugurate; initiate; start:
I take it, then, that you do suppose that the Last Supper was a “dry run” for the apostles, even though Jesus said, “this is my blood…this is my body.” I can assure you that that is NOT the Catholic position.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Jesus* anticipated his death and resurrection* in giving Apostles* himself* in institution the Holy Eucharist at the Last Supper.
F
frangiuliano115
Guest
I take it that since the sacrifice had not happened yet, it could not be memeorialized.
I don’t really use webpages for my information. I started to copy and paste recently because I realize that my words are really insufficient.
However, I’m beginning to realize that this is also of no value.
Where I actually get my information from is teaching priests who tell catechists what they’re supposed to, in turn, teach kids. I guess I shouldn’t trust them anymore…
Fran
F
Faith1960
Guest
B
Bookcat
Guest
Jesus* anticipated his death and resurrection* in giving Apostles* himself* in institution the Holy Eucharist at the Last Supper.
B
Bookcat
Guest
F
frangiuliano115
Guest
Here’s another option, which is still better than The Last Supper option, it’s a spiritual one. To be a Mass there has to be a liturgy of the word (speaking of something Jesus did) and a liturgy of the eurcharist. Both these happened on the Road to Emmaus when Jesus recounted His entire past re the prophets and also calvary, THEN He and the two disciples broke the bread and celebragted the liturgy of the eucharist:
Fr. Vincent Serpa Fr. Vincent Serpa is offline
Catholic Answers Apologist
Join Date: May 4, 2004
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 4,767
Default Re: Did the first Mass take place on the road to Emmaus?
Dear L & F,
I see your pastor’s point: The Liturgy of the Word is completed by the Eucharist. However, we have to be careful not to generalize or absolutize here regarding our conclusions. It is certainly possible for one to recognize Jesus without both Scripture and the Eucharist. God is not limited in His use of grace. He can use anything or anyone to introduce people to Himself. Faith is always His gift.
The first Mass was offered on Calvary. Both the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist derive from it. Because Calvary transcends time and space, it is present to us in the combination of the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. To participate in such Liturgy is the pinnacle of human existence. Heaven simply consists in more fully appreciating it.
Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.
F
Faith1960
Guest
Just more confusion. I think it’s safe to say that the first Eucharist was at the Last Supper and instituted by Jesus’s divine power.
B
Bookcat
Guest
Was the Eucharist instituted (the bread and wine became Jesus Christ…his body and blood…)? Yes. By his divine Power? Yes.
Wither one calls it the “first Mass” is a different question. But certainly yes the Last Supper was the beginning of the Eucharist…Jesus anticipated his death and resurrection in giving Apostles himself in the institution the Holy Eucharist at the Last Supper.
Catechism:
621 Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: “This is my body which is given for you” (Lk 22:19).
F
frangiuliano115
Guest
Faith 1960
How could Jesus have been the Eucharist, the way we understand it, at the Last Supper?
For all the reasons I’ve stated in previous posts.
At this point He was just telling the apostles what was going to happen and to remember it for all time.
This is from Luke:
And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.”
He’s saying that the cup that is poured out for you is the New Covenant. I think I already said how a Covenant is a Testament and only becomes valid once Jesus had died. A last will and testament is not valid while the person signing it is still alive.
Jesus was glorified AFTER He died, not before. So how could the “eucharist” be glorified?
On the Road to Emmaus, instead, He had already died and been resurrected, so the bread could have been glorified, as you say, because Jesus did have His glorified body at that point.
I can’t think of anywhere this is spoken of, but I don’t see how anything else could make any sense.
Now, of course, Jesus could do what He wanted, as another poster has said. But I don’t think this is what you’re asking.
Will keep following.
Fran
How could Jesus have been the Eucharist, the way we understand it, at the Last Supper?
For all the reasons I’ve stated in previous posts.
At this point He was just telling the apostles what was going to happen and to remember it for all time.
This is from Luke:
And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.”
He’s saying that the cup that is poured out for you is the New Covenant. I think I already said how a Covenant is a Testament and only becomes valid once Jesus had died. A last will and testament is not valid while the person signing it is still alive.
Jesus was glorified AFTER He died, not before. So how could the “eucharist” be glorified?
On the Road to Emmaus, instead, He had already died and been resurrected, so the bread could have been glorified, as you say, because Jesus did have His glorified body at that point.
I can’t think of anywhere this is spoken of, but I don’t see how anything else could make any sense.
Now, of course, Jesus could do what He wanted, as another poster has said. But I don’t think this is what you’re asking.
Will keep following.
Fran
C
Catholic4Christ
Guest
Perhaps (this is just my speculation) the Last Supper can be seen more properly as a part of a larger “First Mass.” Example: In a Catholic Mass, the priest consecrates the Eucharist, but the Sacrifice is not considered to have been offered until the celebrating priest receives the Sacred Species. If he confects the Body and Blood but does not receive, technically it was not a Mass (which is just shorthand for the Holy Sacrifice) - at least this is my understanding.
So perhaps at the Last Supper, Jesus instituted the memorial and communion, but the Sacrifice (Mass) itself was not completed until His death on Calvary. So maybe asking whether the Last Supper was the “First Mass” is like asking if the Eucharistic Narrative is a “Mass.” It isn’t, but it is a necessary part.
As to whether His Body and Blood in the Eucharist was glorified at the Last Supper as it is now, I don’t know. I think that it is possible because God is not constrained by time (I liked another poster’s timely comparison to the Immaculate Conception). But I could just as well see the Sacred Species not being glorified until Emmaus, or whenever the first post-Resurrection Mass was, due to the Resurrection bring the Liturgy to its conclusion (just like during the Sacred Triduum).
So perhaps at the Last Supper, Jesus instituted the memorial and communion, but the Sacrifice (Mass) itself was not completed until His death on Calvary. So maybe asking whether the Last Supper was the “First Mass” is like asking if the Eucharistic Narrative is a “Mass.” It isn’t, but it is a necessary part.
As to whether His Body and Blood in the Eucharist was glorified at the Last Supper as it is now, I don’t know. I think that it is possible because God is not constrained by time (I liked another poster’s timely comparison to the Immaculate Conception). But I could just as well see the Sacred Species not being glorified until Emmaus, or whenever the first post-Resurrection Mass was, due to the Resurrection bring the Liturgy to its conclusion (just like during the Sacred Triduum).
F
frangiuliano115
Guest
Very nice how you reasoned this out. You should read my posts 7 and 8 since it was written by a priest who actually celebrates the Mass and says everything you do. Mass really means The Sending Out or Being Dismissed or Being Sent (Out) but it has come to mean Sacrifice, and rightly so.
Another interesting point that you make without realizing it, is the 4th cup of blessing at the Passover meal. This 4th cup was not drunk by Jesus till He was actually on the cross. Just the first 3 were drunk at the Last Supper. The fourth had to wait till the curcifixion. This could be googled. (the 4 cups of the passover meal) It was interesting when I first learned of it.
Fran
C
Catholic4Christ
Guest
So I suppose the debate in this thread surrounding whether the Last Supper was the First Mass could be seen simply as an issue of semantics?
If I am in a church at the moment when the priest says “Hoc est enim Corpus Meum”, I am indeed “at Mass.” Even if I left for some reason before the Sacrifice was completed, I was at a Mass so long as it was completed.
So the Last Supper could be said to be the “First Mass” insofar as when Jesus and the Apostles were there, Jesus consecrated the bread and wine into Himself as a part of the coming Sacrifice on Calvary. But it isn’t the entire “First Mass” because Good Friday hasn’t been completed yet.
- Status