The Latin Mass and Vatican 2?

[oat_soda]

By and large, the Mass of Paul VI is celebrated with loving reverence and is abuse-free

i agree that reverence is a subjective term, but calling the mass like it’s Paul VI’s product only proves my point. he isn’t the author or owner of the liturgy. this is the problem. we need to see the apostolic origins of our liturgy and treat it as something transendent with a cosmic orientation which has been handed down to us. it isn’t only about us or the community.

in my opinon as a result of a shallow and overly historical understanding of the liturgy, paul vi made a valid mistake when he decided to arbitrarily modify the liturgy. to me, it is represenative of the overly optomistic 60’s. for us to be one church again, the role of the pope must be reevaluated, as is alluded to in ut unam sint.

for our faith to shine even brighter, the pope should be seen as the servant of the servants of Christ and the protector of Tradition and unity and not only as ultimate authority on all things sacred. he is not the master of the liturgy but its protector and servant. the error of deifing the pope only exasterbates the cafeteria catholic craze and maybe even disunity among christians. by each individual as well as the pope learning to treasure our faith, we will have a church that not only works fundamentally from the top down, but also from the bottom up.

when people follow something out of blind obedience and not out of truely loving the deposit of faith as something greater then us, we will never be one with the eastern churches who have for the most part maintained the apostolic traditions without the benefit of a pope for the last 1000 to 1500 years.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I must apologize. I committed the error of genesis, that an idea or argument is bad or wrong because of its source. I haven’t read the work in question, so I shouldn’t have said anything. I just simply do not believe that the problems of the Church can be blamed on the abandonment of the TLM or that the Mass of Paul VI is inherently flawed (Oat Soda, “Mass of Paul VI” is just a handle I prefer over NO Mass).

I hate admitting I’m wrong!

 

[pnewton]

1. The imprimateur has become useless as several books received it and later it had to be rescinded. TGF is an investigation, not a discourse on teaching domatic theology. However, the quotes in it are Church sourced documents. The Popes Against Modern Errors has no Imprimateur, yet it is nothing but 16 Papal Encyclicals faithfully translated.

Then the answer is “No?”

TNT:

1. Does the catechism include the St Pius X Catechism, or the Baltimore Catechism?

I has refereing to the current Catechism, which supercedes these. I know a catechism (any) is just a tool, but when a conflict exists between it and some single author, one is safest sticking to the sure norm of the Catholic faith in our generation.

As to the other documents, how can any individual read all documents the church and all theologians have written? If by some miraculous means we could, how many different conclusions would we all derive from bringing this vast information together? We would surely wind up with more than a handful of schisms and could end up as splintered as the Church outside of Rome’s authority.

I looked up several postive reviews on “The Great Facade.” The reason I will not invest the time and the $21.00 in reading it is the criticism of we (neo-conservatives, I believe he called us) who follow our Church leaders because they are our leaders.

So here is what I do not understand. Who should we follow? Him, because of his great scholarship? Perhaps we should listen to a previous pope, like Pius XII, who is leading us from the grave. Which of the 300+ do we follow? There is always Pope Michael looking for a few good men. It is absurd to provide sustitute leadership.

We should all follow truth. Does that mean truth as we interpret it after a life of mulling through church councils and encyclicals? Better that we go back to Sola Scriptura and each be our own interpreter.

No, we must follow the truth as the Church unfolds it to us. This does not make the Church perfect in judgement used everywhere and in every discipline. But we can trust that God will use or obedience and our faith to bring us to heaven.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

pnewton:

Then the answer is “No?”

I has refereing to the current Catechism, which supercedes these. I know a catechism (any) is just a tool, but when a conflict exists between it and some single author, one is safest sticking to the sure norm of the Catholic faith in our generation.

As to the other documents, how can any individual read all documents the church and all theologians have written? If by some miraculous means we could, how many different conclusions would we all derive from bringing this vast information together? We would surely wind up with more than a handful of schisms and could end up as splintered as the Church outside of Rome’s authority.

I looked up several postive reviews on “The Great Facade.” The reason I will not invest the time and the $21.00 in reading it is the criticism of we (neo-conservatives, I believe he called us) who follow our Church leaders because they are our leaders.

So here is what I do not understand. Who should we follow? Him, because of his great scholarship? Perhaps we should listen to a previous pope, like Pius XII, who is leading us from the grave. Which of the 300+ do we follow? There is always Pope Michael looking for a few good men. It is absurd to provide sustitute leadership.

Excellent points, PNewton!

 

[FindTruth7]

I blame both sides for this sad situtation. The modernist cafeteria Catholics have destroyed the Mass of Paul VI. They pick and choose which doctrines and parts of scripture they want to believe and unite themselves with the world rather than with Heaven. Their lack of faith in the real presence has caused the profaning of Our Dear LORD in the Blessed Sacrament. Their lack-a-daysical attitude toward the faith has fueled the fire of the Anti-Vatican II crowd, especially when said Council is used by those uneducated in the Council’s documents to defend their acts.

What doctrines do they pick and choose from,. And if so, why remain Catholic?