The Latin Mass - Should It Be the Universal Catholic Mass Again?

[OraLabora]

So great to hear about this first part… 1. I havnt seen that kind of mass in 3 different countries in many parishes… then last part… the thing is… in the EF i love the way every thing takes time, and homily is 30 mins long… not being rushed of to fit the 1 hour slot…

Well again there were plenty of very short EF Masses.

The Mass I described above lasts 1h20 min, with about a 15 min homily. But the priests that give them are very holy monks so their homilies always have weight. During the week there is no homily and Mass is about 50 minutes. In both cases about 30 min. longer than a regular parish Mass.

To me this Mass sets the standard for the OF. Of course not all can be as elaborate, especially in small parishes with limited musical resources. But then, if we had a universal return to the EF, there would be plenty of small parishes with limited musical resources, and I don’t think you’d find the EF would have the same quality everywhere. The thing is that you are going to EF Masses in very specific circumstances (just as my OF Mass is a very specific situation), said by people determined to preserve that Mass and all its inherent beauty, just as the monks at my abbey are determined to celebrate the OF correctly and draw out all its inherent beauty.

If the EF were the only form, do you really think there would be NO abuses, that every Mass would have a 30 minute homily and no mass would ever be celebrated in a sloppy manner or sped through quickly? If you believe that, then you have more faith in human nature than I do.

 

[jam070406]

No.

We need to do everything possible to promote better understanding of our Catholic faith, and IMO, conducting the Main Event of the Church in a foreign language is not conducive to better understanding.

Even with a translation guide.

In the past,perhaps Catholics were willing to spend more time studying on their own, and children and teenagers truly paid attention and studied hard in their parish religious education classes.

Those days are gone, and I don’t think they’ll ever return. We are a Sesame Street people now. Some of you aren’t, and you love spending long hours in prayer, contemplation, and study. But that’s not the norm, and isn’t likely to become the norm.

Too bad we can’t catechize using video games. We would have the most educated children and teenagers in history.

You’re not giving the youth much credit. Alot are thirsting for exactly what the TLM offers. And the youth I’ve witnessed, the teenage alter boys included, are fixated on the sacrifice being offered before them. Let’s not make sweeping generalizations.
The Church I attended the TLM at prepared and taught the TLM there before it was implimented. And it has been hugely successful.
Of course, the parish was hugely orthodox to begin with.

 

[Nimzovik]

One language (Latin) would have a unifying effect on Catholics methinks. This is a thing much needed today - yes? I Know that it has been said one can attend a Mass anywhere in the world and know what is going on. This is only partially true. I speak in my own language. I sing in my own language, I think in my own Language, Often I pray in my own language as well.

However, I have since learned to lead a daily prayer group in another language - Spanish. After about a year I am now comfortable saying those specific prayers I learned in Spanish. I can now actually pray those prayers in spanish as well. Methinks I could learn to do the same with Latin.

I have attended a mass where 4 different languages are used in one service. Corresponding to the languages was the music as well, all 4 culturally sensitive different flavors. The languages were English, Spanish, Vietnamese and Tagalog.

Methinks the above described is the Tower of Babel. What a cacaphony! Very not -flowing. Very **not **conducive to meditation,

**I **know I could not benefit from such. It made me dizzy. A shame that I can not focus on Our Lord during such a Mass. I am sure I am not the only one.

I will never attend that church again if at all possible. Period.

Draw what conclusions you will.

I dare say that the ‘Tower of Babel’ dynamic needs serious attention.

 

[Ohana]

Yep, we used to have a parish nicknamed “St. Mary the Quick” for its fast daily Mass. That was done in both EF and OF forms of the Mass.

That being said, any form of the Mass can be beautiful. I like the OF I guess because there was so much I did not understand in the Latin version. I even took Latin, not understanding that there is a difference between classical and ecclesiastical Latin. Learned that here the other day.

What was exciting and wonderful to me was actually understanding the Eucharistic Prayer, and the last Gospel in English - for a time.

I got dinged again by a younger person on another thread, but really, the OF made the Mass something to participate in, not just “attend”.

 

[Melchior_1]

Let’s not make sweeping generalizations.

I’m sorry, but isn’t that what happens on this board all of the time? People talking about their “Novus Ordo priests” and “everything was better pre-Vatican II” and “the EF is abuse free and no abuses ever happen ever and never ever happened in the past!”.

The whole concept of “go to the EF for a safe and abuse free Mass” is a sweeping generalization.

 

[TrueLight]

Yes.

Or something very similar to it because of course throughout the years, the mass has changed organically bit by bit.

All masses should be* ad orientem*, only the priest, servers and sacristan should enter the sanctuary, EMHCs should be eliminated, communion should be on the tongue, while kneeling unless someone is older or has an infirmity.

I wouldn’t mind more hymns though, and personally I would love receiving from a spoon as they do in the east.

Hey, we’re fantasizing right?

 

[OraLabora]

One language (Latin) would have a unifying effect on Catholics methinks. This is a thing much needed today - yes? I Know that it has been said one can attend a Mass anywhere in the world and know what is going on. This is only partially true. I speak in my own language. I sing in my own language, I think in my own Language, Often I pray in my own language as well.

However, I have since learned to lead a daily prayer group in another language - Spanish. After about a year I am now comfortable saying those specific prayers I learned in Spanish. I can now actually pray those prayers in spanish as well. Methinks I could learn to do the same with Latin.

I have attended a mass where 4 different languages are used in one service. Corresponding to the languages was the music as well, all 4 culturally sensitive different flavors. The languages were English, Spanish, Vietnamese and Tagalog.

Methinks the above described is the Tower of Babel. What a cacaphony! Very not -flowing. Very **not **conducive to meditation,

**I **know I could not benefit from such. It made me dizzy. A shame that I can not focus on Our Lord during such a Mass. I am sure I am not the only one.

I will never attend that church again if at all possible. Period.

Draw what conclusions you will.

I dare say that the ‘Tower of Babel’ dynamic needs serious attention.

Of course the use of Latin has nothing to do with whether the Mass is celebrated in the Ordinary or Extraordinary Form.

There are countries and cultures BTW where Latin would be a very real impediment. At least for those of us in the West, especially those of Latin-derived languages like myself (French), Latin isn’t too big an obstacle. Same alphabet, fairly easy to grasp pronunciation, easy enough to understand and follow along in a missal.

But imagine folks in Asia, with completely different alphabets, diction, etc. Much harder both for the celebrant and the laity. Think of Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, etc. The Mass also shouldn’t be an imposition of Western cultural norms on another society. We are meant to be the universal Church, and some sensible adaptation will always be necessary.

I therefore think the vernacular is here to stay, though I agree Latin (but in the OF) should be more widely used. I’ve been to bilingual French/English Masses and indeed it doesn’t flow all that well.

Yes.

Or something very similar to it because of course throughout the years, the mass has changed organically bit by bit.

All masses should be* ad orientem*, only the priest, servers and sacristan should enter the sanctuary, EMHCs should be eliminated, communion should be on the tongue, while kneeling unless someone is older or has an infirmity.

I wouldn’t mind more hymns though, and personally I would love receiving from a spoon as they do in the east.

Hey, we’re fantasizing right?

Wouldn’t work in a Benedictine monastery, where the choir is in the sanctuary and many monks are non-ordained and aren’t involved in serving the Mass. And also where versus populum, to integrate the community, has been the norm for a very long time.

I agree with you on EMHCs, but not communion on the tongue, nor kneeling unless the Church has a communion rail (our abbey doesn’t, it has a cloister gate instead). Unless you plan to provide a crane to lift me back into position

 

[ProVobis]

Yep, we used to have a parish nicknamed “St. Mary the Quick” for its fast daily Mass.

I asked a member of my family once where he attended Mass. He responded “St. Pillow of the Sheets.”

IOW, he didn’t go to Mass at all.

 

[ProVobis]

We should move forwards not backwards.

With what? More linguistical entropy, as I like to call it?

 

[Cat]

One language (Latin) would have a unifying effect on Catholics methinks. This is a thing much needed today - yes? I Know that it has been said one can attend a Mass anywhere in the world and know what is going on. This is only partially true. I speak in my own language. I sing in my own language, I think in my own Language, Often I pray in my own language as well.

However, I have since learned to lead a daily prayer group in another language - Spanish. After about a year I am now comfortable saying those specific prayers I learned in Spanish. I can now actually pray those prayers in spanish as well. Methinks I could learn to do the same with Latin.

I have attended a mass where 4 different languages are used in one service. Corresponding to the languages was the music as well, all 4 culturally sensitive different flavors. The languages were English, Spanish, Vietnamese and Tagalog.

Methinks the above described is the Tower of Babel. What a cacaphony! Very not -flowing. Very **not **conducive to meditation,

**I **know I could not benefit from such. It made me dizzy. A shame that I can not focus on Our Lord during such a Mass. I am sure I am not the only one.

I will never attend that church again if at all possible. Period.

Draw what conclusions you will.

I dare say that the ‘Tower of Babel’ dynamic needs serious attention.

And yet, on Pentecost Sunday, the Holy Spirit gave gifts of tongues to the apostles, and all the people in the city heard the Gospel in their own language.

Surely this demonstrates to us that there can be unity in diversity.

 

[Moore11]

In my opinion it should. But there is no getting that cat back in that bag. Plus, holy Mother Church did not “experiment” here, the NO is not only valid but should be used. The Latin should be used as well.
Again, it is just my opinion as to what I would like, not backed by the Holy Spirit who has spoken through the Church on this matter.

 

[ProVobis]

And yet, on Pentecost Sunday, the Holy Spirit gave gifts of tongues to the apostles, and all the people in the city heard the Gospel in their own language.

And today we have Rosetta Stone.

 

[ProVobis]

And yet, on Pentecost Sunday, the Holy Spirit gave gifts of tongues to the apostles, and all the people in the city heard the Gospel in their own language.

And some of these languages, Syriac, Greek, Latin, Hebrew, etc. are still around if we care to know more about these Gospels.

 

[jam070406]

I’m sorry, but isn’t that what happens on this board all of the time? People talking about their “Novus Ordo priests” and “everything was better pre-Vatican II” and “the EF is abuse free and no abuses ever happen ever and never ever happened in the past!”.

The whole concept of “go to the EF for a safe and abuse free Mass” is a sweeping generalization.

Let’s not make sweeping generalizations of all of today’s youth is what I meant.

 

[JustaServant]

Should the Latin Mass be the universal Catholic mass again?

I am interested in polling how many people think we should return to just the Latin Mass within the church and phase out the Ordinary Format (the mass since Vatican II)…

Bruce

As a general rule the Catholic Church has never decided anything based on a “poll”.

For anyone truly interested in the subject I suggest a study in how liturgy developed over the past 2000 years, the theology behind it, especially in regard to the Sacrafice of the Mass. It’s far more complicated than many realize and there were specific reasons why Latin was used, and logically, why it will continue to be used.

 

[jam070406]

I’m sorry, but isn’t that what happens on this board all of the time? People talking about their “Novus Ordo priests” and “everything was better pre-Vatican II” and “the EF is abuse free and no abuses ever happen ever and never ever happened in the past!”.

The whole concept of “go to the EF for a safe and abuse free Mass” is a sweeping generalization.

Actually what happens is people make the case for why they prefer Traditional Catholicism and try to discuss Traditional Catholicism with others that prefer it but are met by people, that have disdain for Traditional Catholicism, who spend a great deal of time in the Traditional section trying to convince them they are wrong to think the way they do. The section that is to be a place to discuss Traditional Catholicism has become a place of attack against Traditionalists.

 

[sw85]

I’d be interested in seeing some detailed reports on the differential demographics of the regular parishioners for the two forms. My impression is that exclusive adherents to the EF tend to be younger, higher fertility, and (outside the more radical elements of, for instance, the SSPX) less inclined to apostasy or schism than those of the OF. If that impression corresponds to reality, we may end up in a few generations with a Church where the EF is the more celebrated form, anyway.

 

[OraLabora]

Actually what happens is people make the case for why they prefer Traditional Catholicism and try to discuss Traditional Catholicism with others that prefer it but are met by people, that have disdain for Traditional Catholicism, who spend a great deal of time in the Traditional section trying to convince them they are wrong to think the way they do. The section that is to be a place to discuss Traditional Catholicism has become a place of attack against Traditionalists.

I think part of the problem is that traditionalists on this site do have a tendency to equate Traditional Catholicism with specific forms of the rite. Being faithful to Catholic Tradition should not necessarily be attached to a specific form of a rite. The Mass has changed over the centuries. So too has the Divine Office, in fact 3 times in this century alone, with two of those times prior to Vatican II.

There are ways to make authentic Catholic Tradition shine through the modern rites of the Church. Everything is in place for it, the Graduale Romanum, for instance.

Being a “traditionalist” shouldn’t be exclusive. It should be inclusive and also look towards means of making Catholic Tradition visible and alive in all rites of the Church, regardless of form.

 

[ProVobis]

I’d be interested in seeing some detailed reports on the differential demographics of the regular parishioners for the two forms.

My understanding is the pitting the forms against each other violate forum rules. The Latin Mass could be either the EF or OF and that, I thought, was the basis for our discussion.

 

[Melchior_1]

Actually what happens is people make the case for why they prefer Traditional Catholicism and try to discuss Traditional Catholicism with others that prefer it but are met by people, that have disdain for Traditional Catholicism, who spend a great deal of time in the Traditional section trying to convince them they are wrong to think the way they do. The section that is to be a place to discuss Traditional Catholicism has become a place of attack against Traditionalists.

I see very few people in this section who have disdain against traditional Catholicism. Actually, I can’t think of any one of the regulars here who show disdain towards traditional Catholics.