The Latin Mass: Why You Can't Have It

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More and more - especially English speaking people - move to other countries for long terms but the language difference is provided for, whether through translators or support personnel. Business trips are another example. Tourism another. Still other times the country or area is practically bilingual but, naturally, the preference is the native vernacular for Mass.

You’re right, though, it’s rare; notwithstanding, in each and any of those situations mentioned above, the Church’s desire for *full and active participation *of the laity in the liturgy is utterly erased/negated. At times like this I would probably hope an EF was being celebrated somewhere nearby.
I guess one would have to weight the needs of those who travel or move against the needs of those who do not. I suspect that most Catholic feel that having the Mass in their own language helps strongly with their ability to fully and actively participate.

I know for me it does. I tend to close my eyes at various parts of the Mass and attempt to offer myself to God through the prayers of the Priest. During the offering of the gifts, I try to unite myself with that offering, my needs, hurts, problems, hopes, etc. are to be united to the prayers of the priest. If I have my head stuck in a missal or simply do not know what is being said, I have no idea how I will do those things.

Others may have differing needs, and I fully support that. Those are simply mine.
 
I guess one would have to weight the needs of those who travel or move against the needs of those who do not. I suspect that most Catholic feel that having the Mass in their own language helps strongly with their ability to fully and actively participate.

I know for me it does. I tend to close my eyes at various parts of the Mass and attempt to offer myself to God through the prayers of the Priest. During the offering of the gifts, I try to unite myself with that offering, my needs, hurts, problems, hopes, etc. are to be united to the prayers of the priest. If I have my head stuck in a missal or simply do not know what is being said, I have no idea how I will do those things.

Others may have differing needs, and I fully support that. Those are simply mine.
I’m not really following?

My point, based on the catechism, is that what’s most important for full and active participation, as the Church teaches and understands it, is the assent of faith. Now, when the word of God is read to the Church, we respond “Thanks be to God” even before it is expounded to us in the sermon. Why? “Believe that you might understand,” is the reason. We are taught - no, trained - to assent immediately to God’s word, regardless of our understanding of it, in the Church’s liturgy.

Consider that many parts of the Bible are deliberately obscure and easily misunderstood. The only risk with the vernacular is that we judge the words as they come to us and apply an interpretation to it; then we assent to our own interpretation, either with an Amen or Thanks be to God or Praise to You, Lord Jesus Christ. Then the priest expounds these things and we find we may have had completely misunderstood the meaning or import of the words. My faith, notwithstanding, teaches me to assent to the Church’s interpretation or understanding. Now this assent of Faith - if my original idea above would be ever applied - allows me to assent in Faith to God’s word: my actual understanding of it is completely unimportant. So even if it’s in a vernacular I cannot possibly understand, I still assent in faith to God’s word proclaimed in/by the Church. That’s why it was okay to have the whole Mass in Latin in the first place (the Sermon excepted, of course). The object is the assent of Faith, and in this habit we acquire it: “Act as if you had faith, and faith will be given to you.”

All instruction is, ultimately, aimed at acquiring the habit of Faith. A merely intellectual assent or agreement is not Faith and does not give us Faith; though, of course, it can certainly help a lot to that end.
 
Another example: Notwithstanding its being said in the vernacular, how many people understand any of the Trinitarian blessing formulas pronounced by the priest in the Mass? Still we are in the habit of responding with an Amen, usually listening for the signal words, “through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.” Few people - maybe 0.1% of Catholics around the world, have read and understood some treatise expounding the Trinity; notwithstanding, we respond “Amen.” Our faith is actually heightened because it is in pure Faith that we respond “Amen” to something we scarcely understand. Most of the New Testament’s epistles begin and end with some Trinitarian blessing formula, and conclude with an Amen. This is more important than we might realise. Reading the Gospels, we find that the disciples and Apostles constantly had to take Our Lord at His word: they rarely ever comprehended His doctrine; notwithstanding, they trusted Him and knew in Faith that eventually He would expound it [the doctrine] at length to them so that they might have a better understanding.
 
I’m not really following?

My point, based on the catechism, is that what’s most important for full and active participation, as the Church teaches and understands it, is the assent of faith. Now, when the word of God is read to the Church, we respond “Thanks be to God” even before it is expounded to us in the sermon. Why? “Believe that you might understand,” is the reason. We are taught - no, trained - to assent immediately to God’s word, regardless of our understanding of it, in the Church’s liturgy.

Consider that many parts of the Bible are deliberately obscure and easily misunderstood. The only risk with the vernacular is that we judge the words as they come to us and apply an interpretation to it; then we assent to our own interpretation, either with an Amen or Thanks be to God or Praise to You, Lord Jesus Christ. Then the priest expounds these things and we find we may have had completely misunderstood the meaning or import of the words. My faith, notwithstanding, teaches me to assent to the Church’s interpretation or understanding. Now this assent of Faith - if my original idea above would be ever applied - allows me to assent in Faith to God’s word: my actual understanding of it is completely unimportant. So even if it’s in a vernacular I cannot possibly understand, I still assent in faith to God’s word proclaimed in/by the Church. That’s why it was okay to have the whole Mass in Latin in the first place (the Sermon excepted, of course). The object is the assent of Faith, and in this habit we acquire it: “Act as if you had faith, and faith will be given to you.”

All instruction is, ultimately, aimed at acquiring the habit of Faith. A merely intellectual assent or agreement is not Faith and does not give us Faith; though, of course, it can certainly help a lot to that end.
The idea of having the scriptures proclaimed in the language of the people is that the congregation will become familiar with the words of the sacred texts. This is not a new idea. Originally, all 23 Catholic Churches proclaimed the sacred texts in the language of the people. As Latin faded out in the Western world, it became a “foreign” language to the average Catholic.

The Eastern Churches are facing the same problem with the younger generation not being fluent in the traditional languages. Some have adopted the use of the national language to proclaim the scriptures. It’s not for the sake of having the congregation do hermaneutics, but for the sake of having the congregation hear the sacred scripture and become familiar with the text itself.

There is also a difference between exegesis and meditation. The homily is not supposed to be exegesis. It’s a reflection on the text or it can be on the theme of the day. Sometimes the theme of the day and the text don’t harmonize. There is nothing wrong with the person in the pew meditating on the words of the text and getting something for himself that the scholars would not say.

Hermaneutics and exegesis are really for the classroom, not the mass. If one wants to understand how the Church applies the texts, one is better off reading the CCC. It’s very rich in references to the scriptures.

Remember, there are very few passages in scripture on which the Church has given a definitive interpretation. Most are open for reflection and the individual is going to hear different things at different times. This happens everyday to those of us who pray the LOTH. We go through the same 150 psalms and still hear something different. The Word of God is not that rigid that it is reduced to one possible message. It has layers and layers. It is good to present it in the language of the people to allow people to go through these layers at their own pace according to their abilities.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
I’m not really following?
Gotcha. What I am getting at is, for many people of whom I am one, hearing and understanding the Mass is part of “full and active participation”. If, as you suggest, understanding is not really important, why even have Missals with the vernacular in them? At some level, the Church feels it is important for people to understand the words used in the Mass, the Scripture being read, etc. If that was not the case, there would be no missal provided and no translation at all.

One of the commonly cited reasons for some traditionalists not liking the prayers used in the OF of the Mass is that the Mass itself is supposed to serve as catechesis for the Faithful. This would seem to contradict your suggestion that understanding is really not necessary.
 
The idea of having the scriptures proclaimed in the language of the people is that the congregation will become familiar with the words of the sacred texts. This is not a new idea. Originally, all 23 Catholic Churches proclaimed the sacred texts in the language of the people. As Latin faded out in the Western world, it became a “foreign” language to the average Catholic.
Yes, I know: and that is good. Missals being printed in the vernacular and becoming increasingly popular effectively did this also anyways, and perhaps that’s part of the reason why moving to a completely vernacular liturgy became so easy. Even if we retained the EF and never had an OF, more and more people would have, notwithstanding, followed the Mass in a translation in a Missal. This, actually, is a bit of a distraction when you think about it.
The Eastern Churches are facing the same problem with the younger generation not being fluent in the traditional languages. Some have adopted the use of the national language to proclaim the scriptures. It’s not for the sake of having the congregation do hermaneutics, but for the sake of having the congregation hear the sacred scripture and become familiar with the text itself.
That actually almost sounds a bit trivial. Familiarity with the texts does what, exactly? What you are about to say next - meditating on them and contemplating them - sounds rather more to the point.
There is also a difference between exegesis and meditation. The homily is not supposed to be exegesis. It’s a reflection on the text or it can be on the theme of the day. Sometimes the theme of the day and the text don’t harmonize. There is nothing wrong with the person in the pew meditating on the words of the text and getting something for himself that the scholars would not say.
Agreed.
Hermaneutics and exegesis are really for the classroom, not the mass. If one wants to understand how the Church applies the texts, one is better off reading the CCC. It’s very rich in references to the scriptures.

Remember, there are very few passages in scripture on which the Church has given a definitive interpretation.
Well, if you’ve read the CCC [and I know you have :)], that’s not true anymore. The Church has effectively qualified at least one sense of a verse, or a part thereof, everytime she quotes the scriptures as a proof or warrant for some belief/doctrine/practice in the CCC. If you deny this, you are effectively saying all of the parts of the CCC justified in or by the scriptures are optional or pure fiat. The Church reads the scriptures and finds herself in them.
Most are open for reflection and the individual is going to hear different things at different times. This happens everyday to those of us who pray the LOTH. We go through the same 150 psalms and still hear something different. The Word of God is not that rigid that it is reduced to one possible message.
I realize that, but they’re not necessarily completely subjective either, otherwise you’re basically saying that the authors we’re pouring out words without ever wanting to convey anything meaningful, definite or concrete. They obviously did wish to communicate something, and often communicated much more than they possibly realized themselves, being instruments of the Holy Ghost.
It has layers and layers.
Most certainly!
It is good to present it in the language of the people to allow people to go through these layers at their own pace according to their abilities.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Yes I agree. Notwithstanding, returning to my original point, I can’t meditate on the meaning of things when they are in Latin or German or any other language besides English. I can, however, give my assent in Faith to them, along with the whole Church. In that, I certainly participate.
 
Gotcha. What I am getting at is, for many people of whom I am one, hearing and understanding the Mass is part of “full and active participation”. If, as you suggest, understanding is not really important, why even have Missals with the vernacular in them? At some level, the Church feels it is important for people to understand the words used in the Mass, the Scripture being read, etc. If that was not the case, there would be no missal provided and no translation at all.

One of the commonly cited reasons for some traditionalists not liking the prayers used in the OF of the Mass is that the Mass itself is supposed to serve as catechesis for the Faithful. This would seem to contradict your suggestion that understanding is really not necessary.
Understanding is good and important; but no, not actually necessary. A child does not understand - whether said in Latin or the vernacular - the baptismal formula or rite;- notwithstanding, it is the faith of the Church that is communicated.

But if I can neither i) understand nor ii) assent, then the Mass is almost useless from that standpoint, outside of fulfilling an obligation. I can scarcely participate - I can’t understand or meditate upon what is being said; worse, I don’t even know what to do or say or when because I don’t know what’s happening. Now admittedly certain gestures and movements give me a vague idea of what is happening, but I can’t be completely sure. I can summise that the gospel is being read when the priest is reading, but when does it end? I know, perhaps, once the people around me have made a response in their language - but again, I’m like a catechumen in my own Church hearing Mass for the first time: but at least as a catechumen I could understand what was being said even if I didn’t know when responses were appropriate or what responses were appropriate.

The most important thing, though - and this is why I will go to an OF celebrated in Spanish if I’m in Spain - is really faith. My faith tells me that the Mass is the Mass regardless of the form or language it is said in: whether extraordinary or ordinary, English, Spanish or Latin, and that it is important that I be there.

As the Pope in his book, Jesus of Nazareth, has pointed out- of the bare minimums of salvation required from a reading of the scriptures, a knowledge (let alone an actual understanding) of Revelation is hardly ever listed as a criteria; hence, someone can have Baptism of Desire, even if they have never even heard of Christ. This actually makes sense: why would memorizing the dogmas of the Church be necessary for salvation? Why would an ability to recite a list of dogmatic factoids procure for me salvation, especially if I didn’t understand them? How few would be saved if we had to have a precise knowledge of each dogma, for instance, as also a perfect understanding of its full meaning or consequence? If it ever was anything remotely approaching strictly necessary, the Church would have had us do it. But first and foremost is faith. With faith comes the blessings and the promises, as with Abraham the father of faith; moreover, it’s an ancient belief of the Church that understanding tends to follow after belief/faith - not precede it.

The protoevangelium, for instance, was given to our first parents. To what extent did they understand it? How many Catholics know what the protoevangelium is or was? Is it necessary they i) know it and ii) understand its contents? Hardly - but all Catholics, notwithstanding, can safely be assumed to believe in it, if only implicitly.

Consider that we hardly ever read a list of things someone must believe. We don’t find: You need to believe this, and this, and this, and this, and this, etc. No: we need to believe, and we can’t believe if we don’t even have a disposition to believe.
 
How many times have you heard the following retort to the suggestion of having a Latin Mass:
Nobody in this parish would be interested”…
Yet I personally have not seen or even heard of a diocese “polling” their parishioners on the matter.
I mention this because the author of the article, in trying to estimate probable interest…the numbers attending the masses in the Archdiocese of Cincinnati (my home). It’s obvious that there are no actual numbers…reflection of interest among the faithful to be had.
James:

Thank you for reading my recent piece on the Traditional Latin Mass.

I was taken aback by your observation that “it’s obvious that there are no actual numbers.” The figures from the locations are, if anything, generous. The amount at the Dayton location came from the pastor, while that of the Cincinnati location was taken from my experience serving Mass there when I am in town (as I am from there originally). I am well aware of plans to erect a dedicated parish in Cincinnati, at the former St Mark’s. Unfortunately, a number of distinguished and generous Catholic families in the city went to the separatist groups (SSPX, SSPV, etc) during the Bernardin era. Catholics are less than generous in contributing to their parishes, which does not help either.

I am neither aware of parishes taking polls, nor of needing one to provide a TLM. No parish, let alone a diocese, is going to risk human and financial resources on something that MIGHT happen. Additional locations do not necessarily increase numbers, at least not per capita. To wit, I also provided a second example, namely the diocese in which I currently live. It was the very intention of the motu proprio that the demand for the Traditional Mass come from the faithful themselves.

I invite you to give my piece a closer look than that to which you admit. Your concerns are dealt with in great detail, as you are not the first to raise them.

DLA
 
Yes I agree. Notwithstanding, returning to my original point, I can’t meditate on the meaning of things when they are in Latin or German or any other language besides English. I can, however, give my assent in Faith to them, along with the whole Church. In that, I certainly participate.
The question then, to my mind, is whether that level of participation constitutes “full and active”. For myself, I don’t think so.

Others may have a different opinion.
 
Understanding is good and important; but no, not actually necessary. A child does not understand - whether said in Latin or the vernacular - the baptismal formula or rite;- notwithstanding, it is the faith of the Church that is communicated.

But if I can neither i) understand nor ii) assent, then the Mass is almost useless from that standpoint, outside of fulfilling an obligation. I can scarcely participate - I can’t understand or meditate upon what is being said; worse, I don’t even know what to do or say or when because I don’t know what’s happening. Now admittedly certain gestures and movements give me a vague idea of what is happening, but I can’t be completely sure. I can summise that the gospel is being read when the priest is reading, but when does it end? I know, perhaps, once the people around me have made a response in their language - but again, I’m like a catechumen in my own Church hearing Mass for the first time: but at least as a catechumen I could understand what was being said even if I didn’t know when responses were appropriate or what responses were appropriate.

The most important thing, though - and this is why I will go to an OF celebrated in Spanish if I’m in Spain - is really faith. My faith tells me that the Mass is the Mass regardless of the form or language it is said in: whether extraordinary or ordinary, English, Spanish or Latin, and that it is important that I be there.

As the Pope in his book, Jesus of Nazareth, has pointed out- of the bare minimums of salvation required from a reading of the scriptures, a knowledge (let alone an actual understanding) of Revelation is hardly ever listed as a criteria; hence, someone can have Baptism of Desire, even if they have never even heard of Christ. This actually makes sense: why would memorizing the dogmas of the Church be necessary for salvation? Why would an ability to recite a list of dogmatic factoids procure for me salvation, especially if I didn’t understand them? How few would be saved if we had to have a precise knowledge of each dogma, for instance, as also a perfect understanding of its full meaning or consequence? If it ever was anything remotely approaching strictly necessary, the Church would have had us do it. But first and foremost is faith. With faith comes the blessings and the promises, as with Abraham the father of faith; moreover, it’s an ancient belief of the Church that understanding tends to follow after belief/faith - not precede it.

The protoevangelium, for instance, was given to our first parents. To what extent did they understand it? How many Catholics know what the protoevangelium is or was? Is it necessary they i) know it and ii) understand its contents? Hardly - but all Catholics, notwithstanding, can safely be assumed to believe in it, if only implicitly.

Consider that we hardly ever read a list of things someone must believe. We don’t find: You need to believe this, and this, and this, and this, and this, etc. No: we need to believe, and we can’t believe if we don’t even have a disposition to believe.
I think you and I are going in a different direction. I suggest that not having an understanding of documents one has not been exposed to, is very different from not understanding something that you attend weekly, or daily for that matter. As I suggested earlier, one of the things I hear from trads on this forum frequently is that the Mass itself is supposed to serve as a form of education in the faith.
 
Since the thread is about the Latin Mass, I’d like to quote a passage from Dom Prosper Gueranger, who wrote a book in the 19th century (one of many) called ‘The Holy Mass.’
It was written when the missal of St. Pius V was still in use. The missal of Bl. John XXlll was not yet promulgated, which made a few changes to the missal of St. Pius V. The passage I’d like to quote is a partial description of the Preface part of the Latin Mass, which is located between the Orate Fratres, and the Sanctus:

"Although the Priest has been making his petitions on a low voice, yet he terminates this Prayer aloud, exclaiming: Per omnia secula seculorum; to which the faithful respond, ‘Amen,’ that is to say, we ask also, for what thou hast been asking. In fact, the Priest never says anything in the Holy Sacrifice without the assent of the Faithful, who, as we have already noticed, participate in the Priesthood. They have not heard what the Priest has been saying, nevertheless they join therein and approve heartily of all, by answering their ‘Amen,’ yea, our Prayer is one with thine! The dialogue here begun between Priest and his people is maintained for a little while, at length leaving the final word to the priest alone, who gives thanks solemnly, in the name of all there assembled.

The Priest then salutes the people, but this time without turning to them, saying: 'Dominus vobiscum, the Lord be with you: lo! now is the most solemn moment of Prayer! And the faithful respond: Et cum Spirtu tuo, may He be with thy Spirit, may He aid thee, lo! we are one with thee !–Then the Priest says: 'Sursum Corda! lift up your hearts! The Priest requires that their hearts be detached from earthly thoughts, so that they may be directed on God alone; for the Prayers he is about to make is that of Thanksgiving. Admire how well placed is this prayer here, for the Priest is on the point of accomplishing the Sacrifice of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, and this sacrifice is verily for us the Instrument of Thanksgiving; it is the Means whereby we are enabled to render back to God that which we owe Him"

To be continued in another post…
 
But that is the same Liturgy. The OF in Latin is still different than the EF. The argument between the OF and EF is far more than the language used. We can do a bilingual Liturgy switching between two languages, but you can’t switch between the OF and EF mid-Liturgy.
Well, there’s enough in common between the Latin OF and the EF so that most wouldn’t know the difference in the forms as they stand right now. The language whether it’s Spanish or English or Vietnamese seems to be the bigger factor in parish disharmony from my experience.
 
TrueLight has the actual link to the article. Maybe she’ll come around and post it.
Ha ha. I saw this comment by chance. I haven’t really been reading all the posts.

Here is the link: Hybrid Latin Mass by 2013.

I must say I brought this up to two “traditional priests” and they both looked at me with a mixture of horror and skepticism if that is possible. By traditional, I am referring (only in this context) to priests who are part of congregations that only celebrate Mass according to the 1962 Missal (Like the FSSP and the Institute of Christ the King).

First, they didn’t believe anything would be ready as early as 2013 and they dismissed it all as rumors.

Secondly, they scoffed at the idea of saying mass facing the people. They stressed that no traditional priest would do this and the “option” would just be ignored.
 
Explanation of the Preface part of the Latin (EF) Mass, continued:

"…So Holy Mother Church, delighting with intensest relish in this magnificent Prayer, would fain arouse her faithful children with this cry: Sursum Corda! in order that they too may appreciate, as she does, this great Act of Thanksgiving, whereby she offers unto God a Something that is Great and worthy of Him. And now the Faithful hasten to express their reassurances to the Priest: ‘Habemus ad Dominum!’ we have our hearts raised up unto the Lord! Then, replies the Priest, if indeed it be so, let us all unitedly give thanks unto the Lord: ‘Gratias agamus Domino Deo Nostro.’ And the Faithful at once add: ‘Dignum et justum est.’ Thus they do unite themselves wholly with the Thanksgiving of the Preface which the Priest is about to speak–this dialogue is as old as the Church herself, and there is every reason to believe that the Apostles themselves arranged it, because it is to be found in the most ancient Churches and in all Liturgies.
 
Well, there’s enough in common between the Latin OF and the EF so that most wouldn’t know the difference in the forms as they stand right now. The language whether it’s Spanish or English or Vietnamese seems to be the bigger factor in parish disharmony from my experience.
I would agree with some here and say that it is the quality of the prayers in the Liturgy itself. The reason why an English Divine Liturgy isn’t seen as anything less that one in Russian or Slavonic or Greek (modern or classical) is that we use the same exact prayers in every language. People can aruge about how faithful the translation is but the thought of the prayer is there, which is really the most important thing especially to an Eastern Christian.
 
The question then, to my mind, is whether that level of participation constitutes “full and active”. For myself, I don’t think so.

Others may have a different opinion.
I understand what you are saying here: no, that would certainly not be* as full *and active as the ability to meditate and contemplate upon what is being said is. It is, however, *a lot more *than being completely incapable of participating at all.

The instructional or contemplative parts of the Mass make up the bulk of it, especially in the OF. The responses are a miniscule part, but an important part, because they are affirmations of faith or belief, usually exclaimed in a way that also communicates prayerful praise (e.g., “Thanks be to God.” “Lord, I am not worthy that You should enter under my roof, but only say the word, and my soul shall be healed.”). All I have been saying is that if these few phrases were universalized - and the signals that beckon them also - into Latin, then we could all everywhere participate in the Mass: at least certainly feel like we are participating in it; otherwise, we feel strange or lost, though certainly at least we could worship Our Lord by following the priests actions and gestures and noting what the people around us are doing. This would do nothing to detract from the instructional or contemplative parts in the vernacular.
 
Understanding is good and important; but no, not actually necessary. A child does not understand - whether said in Latin or the vernacular - the baptismal formula or rite;- notwithstanding, it is the faith of the Church that is communicated.
Precisely.

I was watching “Peter Pan” with my 2-yr old nephew the other day. He knows barely five words of English but there are enough visuals (in this case, animation) there so he knows when to laugh, be sad, etc. The cartoon could be in Hebrew and he would not understand it less.

My old prayerbook from the Mass didn’t have translations. It had pictures and simple prayers to follow them along with. I caught a little bit of the sermon, whether it was in Polish or English, and that was it. My dad taught me “Dominus vobiscum/ Et cum spiritu tuo” and I believed.
 
"Although the Priest has been making his petitions on a low voice, yet he terminates this Prayer aloud, exclaiming: Per omnia secula seculorum; to which the faithful respond, ‘Amen,’ that is to say, we ask also, for what thou hast been asking. In fact, the Priest never says anything in the Holy Sacrifice without the assent of the Faithful, who, as we have already noticed, participate in the Priesthood…
This is exactly what I’m talking about 🙂
 
I have to say the closest I’ve come to this was back in 2008 at one of the Chicago EFs. The vernacular readings must have been from the OF (they certainly didn’t have any resemblence to what I had in the EF missal) and were said by a woman lector. (Yes, in the sanctuary.) I didn’t think that particular Mass had much future as there weren’t more than 20-30 people in attendance, including the choir.
 
I would agree with some here and say that it is the quality of the prayers in the Liturgy itself.
The prayers which were dropped (Introibo, Offertory, Aufer, Munda, Suscipe, Deus Qui, Offerimus, Lavabo, etc.) are normally said in low-tones (some prayers should be, according to Trent) so unless you’re close to the altar you don’t hear them, if at all. The rest (Gloria, Creed, Preface of the Holy Trinity, EP1, Sanctus, Pater Noster, Agnus Dei) are practically identical in the EF and OF so it would be the difference in language which would be the only audible difference between and within the forms. That’s why I said and will continue to say that most wouldn’t know the difference between the Latin OF and the EF if the texts were their only clue. The visuals and volume are another matter; they have their own language. That would be the tricky part of combining the two forms IMO.
 
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