The Latin Mass: Why You Can't Have It

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Church_defender said:
I have to have 7 classes to be confirmed(Due to my devotion, and the fact that I can answer all questions to be confirmed in as little as a week), and I fully understand the mass.I blew through the Baltimore Catechism #3 in a week, and I could answer everything in there now. I tried a Novus Ordo mass, I personally didn’t like it at all. Don’t act like the Church won’t teach you Latin, or that we are idiots and Novus Ordo people are “smarter”. Most Novus Ordo people I know can’t even come close to my knowledge of the Church, and I’m just 4 months on my trip into the Church for life. Most people at my Church fully know everything about the Church. One of my friends was told by a Novus Ordo priest he could receive the eucharist in the state of mortal sin, after 1 week in the church I already had known this was a complete and utter lie.

This is the reason I signed up. I lurked quite a bit, but I seen this, and I have to say you’re so misguided! WE ARE NOT GNOSTIC OR OCCULTISTS! How can you say that about the people who follow the tradition of the Catholic faith? Your statement is sickening!

My Latin parish has over 500 people come on Sunday, we only have two masses, and our parish only has seating for about 250(270 if you count the cry room). Almost everyone attends every sunday, about 25 come on daily masses(I go on Thursdays, once I start driving I will go everyday). We only offer two masses on Sunday. I’d say we are doing very good for how many we can fit into our parish, not a single pew is empty on Sunday during both low and high. If you are to go by numbers, in the USA and Canada, the Proddies have us beat.

Many Christians will not make it into the Kingdom of Heaven.

I’ve had a better time with friendliness in a traditional Catholic parish than I ever have had with proddies. My ex attends a “superchurch”(I wouldn’t call it “super”, or even a real “church”), I plan on bringing her to my parish, I assume she’ll say the same as other guests to our parish, it’s nicer there than anywhere most people have been.
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Have some humility my brother.

I also felt I knew more than RCIA would have taught me and maybe I did, but remember God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
 
MarMax said:
Brother, I respect you greatly and have followed your posts for a while before registering. That being said, Friars are not the laity and have much more experience to draw from in these random situations. You admit that the readings and homily were lost on you in a Vietnamese Mass (and apparently on the Norwegian and Kenyan)-- does this not render ineffective the argument of Jwinch2, in some sense? Doesn’t this render a material lack of participation in that day’s Propers? I think it does.

I started in the NO, and it honestly reminded me of Protestant services that way I saw them celebrated. Nothing about it spoke to me, due to the feel-good banality and largely touchy-feely weirdness which went on. I have watched videos of the Holy Father on youtube celebrating the NO in Latin, ad orientem and it was fine. Not my cup of tea though. I can’t afford tickets to Rome every Sunday, or whenever he does this. Upon seeing the TLM for the first time, it all clicked.

Again, there is a separation in the community due to language. There is no reason we can’t have a veritable “people of the world” every Sunday in Mass. Instead, it’s a sea of dark faces during the Creole Mass, lighter faces during the Vietnamese Mass, a smattering of brown shades during the Spanish Mass, and a rare earth-tone rainbow in English Mass. It HURTS me. I WANT to see everyone, for how could I not wish to be with my brothers and sisters in Christ? I see that at the TLM. I see the Catholic faith. I see reverence, quiet from the cacophony of the world, an escape… I dislike it when Mass is over. I couldn’t wait for the NO to be over. It offered no reverence, quiet, or escape. Guitar this, hand-holding that (grrr… quit squeezing!), etc. But that isn’t particularly the fault of the form rather than the banal, on-the-spot production which has seeped its way into the form.

So I sought out this mythical Latin Mass… ye olde Tridentine, of yesteryear and cobweb accusations. And I found the Mass my heretical ancestors left. I found the Mass which St. Padre Pio celebrated. I found the Mass which John Sobieski saw before and after riding off to defeat the murderous Turks. I saw the Mass which the great Franciscan missionaries of the American southwest brought to the people. I saw the Mass Saint Maximilian Kolbe must have undoubtedly yearned for when in Auschwitz. I saw THE Mass. And if I go to anywhere this Mass is celebrated, I will know EXACTLY what is being read because it is in Latin and I have an app for that (err, a Missal). Those who assist at the NO could have this too, if they’d just step away from the division of Language. Latin ain’t exactly rocket science. This southern boy picked it up in no time through repetition. I don’t even pray in English once I learn the prayer in Latin. English is banal and grates the ears. It is too familiar. My ancestors prayed Pater Noster… Ave Maria… Gloria Patri… and though they likely didn’t speak Latin fluently, they knew what the prayers meant. Just like the children at the Traditional parishes know their prayers in Latin and their native tongue.

It’s high time Catholics reunite and cast off the division of language in the Liturgy, and it’s high time the Bishops and priests quit thinking of the laity as idiots who can’t pick up a little Latin. After all, it is what the Holy Father wants. Yet, I never had the resources to make good on this until I found the TLM. It’s not the fault or accolade of the form, it’s the fault of Catholics who have lazy tongues and lazier brains.

*Dominus vobiscum. *
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Most people here that prefer the OF of the Mass are very supportive of those who wish to have access to the EF for their own spiritual growth. Unfortunately, there are always cases like this, where those who prefer the EF wish to mandate that on everyone else, and by doing so, take away that which they need to fulfill themselves spiritually. You are doing this, albeit in the form of Latin vs Vernacular instead of the form of the Mass itself. You don’t stop there either. Not content to tell people that they are wrong for what they prefer, you resort to calling them (me) lazy.

I hate guitar masses and irreverence, lack of silence, etc. probably just as much as you do. All of this has absolutely nothing to do with the language in which the Mass is celebrated. There is no reason at all we cannot have beautiful music, reverent celebration, silence, prayer, etc. in an OF Mass in the vernacular. I’ve seen it many times, though not as often as I would prefer. However, I would point out that one of the worst occasions for people talking before Mass and disturbing my ability to pray, was actually at an EF Mass, not the OF.

The bottom line is this, you are free to have your preference, and even explain why you have it, but please stop telling others what their preference ought to be.
 
MarMax said:
My Missal from Angelus Press has tons of explanations on everything and what it symbolizes in addition to the English translation.

Here’s what I don’t understand: if the NO can be translated into umpteen different languages with approval, I see no reason that the TLM can’t be as well. All the publishers would have to do then is throw X language into the section of its place and voilà. Same-same with the NO’s language of celebration.

What would this accomplish? Well, simply put, the Priest would then be praying in Latin EVERYWHERE in the world. Business trip to Thailand? Introibo ad altare Dei… Family vacation to France? Introibo ad altare Dei… Refugee from China coming to America? Introibo ad altare Dei…

As opposed to Thai (what on earth is this man saying? I am at a Catholic Church right?), French (Sounds romantic, Fr., but I have no idea what you’re saying…), and now the sign of Peace (me no unnastan Engrish!).

The Church, anywhere one goes, should feel and be like home. It should be, I dunno, universal. One shouldn’t feel like a stranger in a strange land, when in Mass.

This could be done in the NO, sure. But it won’t be. Instead, businessmen will continue to sit there dumbfounded; families will continue to be assaulted by a romance language without having the ability to bring their own trusty Missals and follow along, and the poor refugee from China will feel the stress of not knowing the language even in a setting which should be absolutely tranquil.

Even more so, language, as is often the case, separates us exactly like the Tower of Babel. The Vietnamese have the Vietnamese Mass. The Haitians have the Haitian Mass in Creole. The Spanish have the Spanish Mass. Us mutt Americans have the English Mass. Do we have any way to empathize with the Vietnamese, Haitians, or various Hispanics? Nope.

Babel accomplished and division apparent. This has nothing to do with the form of the Mass in reality, but the ripping away of the official language of the Church in the Liturgy as commonly celebrated.
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You comments assume that ordinary churchgoers are not able to discern anything about the Mass from the structure of the iturgy itself apart from the language.

I have altar served at Haitian Mass in Creole, Spanish and Korean, without knowing a single word except for maybe being able to pick out “Papa” or “Padre” or something like that.

I had no problem striking my breast at the right time, discerning when the Sanctus was taking place and moving to the wings of the sanctuary to kneel, and ringing the bells at the correct places, even in Korean. I was even able to figure out when to get the Missal to hold for the priest for the opening and closing collects - everyone strikes their breast three times means its time to go get the book and present it to the priest, unless there is a Gloria.

It’s not rocket science for someone who goes to Mass regularly.

-Tim-
 
JReducation said:
But he also wants to perpetuate the mass in the language of the people and has given permission for translations into more language. Originally, the translations were only into the European languages. Now they are into the indigenous languages of Africa, Asia, Oceania and South America. Bl. John Paul did not grant this permission. It was Pope Benedict who opened this door.
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Br. JR, but certainly the Pope knows that 500 years from now, or even 100 years from now, most of these languages will be morphed out of existence, no? I can understand and fully support evangelizing in the vernacular but, as someone who understands a lot of linguistics and politics, you probably can see the real problems in trying to perpetuate all-national-tongued liturgies, I would think. And how sustainable can they be? Yes, today they may have similarities so that one can easily attend in a language he or she doesn’t understand because he’s able to follow the rubrics if nothing else, but even these rubrics (in the form of options) will eventually become so ambiguous that down the road nothing will become familiar if this is all nationalized IMO.
 
My concern is that if the vernacular is used local ‘liturgical experts’ will add their little touches to the rite. The mere fact of a new mass being produced is an encouragement to experimentation.

Fast forward 50 years and they’ll be dancing around the altar. It’s already happening in South America. Once you start emphasising Community and Inculturation, that’s what’ll happen. People think they can legitimately add their own stylings. Inevitably this causes scandal or morphs into actual abuses. Then the letters start flying.

The way around this is to have a standardised, international mass, for this reason: Souls must be saved. Catholics have a right to a solemn mass said according to the mind of the Church.This can’t be jeapordised, long-term, by catering to local cultural fabrications.

Also: People over-complicate the Latin Rite. They think it’s a big deal to learn. The OF isn’t and neither is the EF. You even get cue cards and an MC! It’s harder to learn a substantial part in a play and amateurs do that every day.

We are “the Royal Priesthood of the Laity” but we’re too dull, nationalistic or rebellious to learn Latin responses; that seems to be the idea.
 
RogerDeCourcy said:
My concern is that if the vernacular is used local ‘liturgical experts’ will add their little touches to the rite. The mere fact of a new mass being produced is an encouragement to experimentation.

Fast forward 50 years and they’ll be dancing around the altar. It’s already happening in South America. Once you start emphasising Community and Inculturation, that’s what’ll happen. People think they can legitimately add their own stylings. Inevitably this causes scandal or morphs into actual abuses. Then the letters start flying.

The way around this is to have a standardised, international mass, for this reason: Souls must be saved. Catholics have a right to a solemn mass said according to the mind of the Church.This can’t be jeapordised, long-term, by catering to local cultural fabrications.

Also: People over-complicate the Latin Rite. They think it’s a big deal to learn. The OF isn’t and neither is the EF. You even get cue cards and an MC! It’s harder to learn a substantial part in a play and amateurs do that every day.

We are “the Royal Priesthood of the Laity” but we’re too dull, nationalistic or rebellious to learn Latin responses; that seems to be the idea.
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Go to an Etheopian Orthodox Church if you ever get a chance.

-Tim-
 
jwinch2 said:
I agree completely. Yet, by all accounts I have heard and read of, it (rosary during Mass) was a common occurrence before Vatican II.

Peace,
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I still see it almost every Sunday at my local OF Mass, especially at the times when the “music ministers” are doing what they do.
 
TimothyH said:
Go to an Etheopian Orthodox Church if you ever get a chance.

-Tim-
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Their example is no excuse for Roman, Latin Rite Catholics to boogie at Sunday mass, if that’s what you’re implying(?)
 
RogerDeCourcy said:
Their example is no excuse for Roman, Latin Rite Catholics to boogie at Sunday mass, if that’s what you’re implying(?)
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You said,
RogerDeCourcy said:
The way around this is to have a standardised, international mass, for this reason: Souls must be saved. Catholics have a right to a solemn mass said according to the mind of the Church.This can’t be jeapordised, long-term, by catering to local cultural fabrications.
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My point is that souls are saved by grace, not by any particular form of liturgy. Grace can come to us through many forms of the liturgy, not just through one monolithic, rigid, prescribed mechanism. No matter how beautiful any given liturgy seems to one person, God is not limited by it and saves souls as he sees fit.

-Tim-
 
roadsend said:
I still see it almost every Sunday at my local OF Mass, especially at the times when the “music ministers” are doing what they do.
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Really? I have never seen it at an OF Mass. That is disappointing in the extreme.
 
RogerDeCourcy said:
My concern is that if the vernacular is used local ‘liturgical experts’ will add their little touches to the rite. The mere fact of a new mass being produced is an encouragement to experimentation.

Fast forward 50 years and they’ll be dancing around the altar. It’s already happening in South America. Once you start emphasising Community and Inculturation, that’s what’ll happen. People think they can legitimately add their own stylings. Inevitably this causes scandal or morphs into actual abuses. Then the letters start flying.
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None of these things have anything to do with the language being used and everything to do with disobedience and pride.
The way around this is to have a standardised, international mass, for this reason: Souls must be saved. Catholics have a right to a solemn mass said according to the mind of the Church.This can’t be jeapordised, long-term, by catering to local cultural fabrications.
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We do have a standardize, international Mass. The mind of the Church was expressed in Vatican II and by the Holy Father when he stated that the OF of the Mass was the norm and that the EF of the Mass was not. That things are being done improperly is not the fault of the Mass, it is the fault of people who as always, think they know better than the Church and wish to change her. What is needed is for the Holy Father to instruct Bishops, clearly, to celebrate the Mass according to the rubrics and to cut out the nonsense. Then the Bishops, clearly, need to instruct the Priests on what to do. Get the lay ministers out of the decision tree when it comes to liturgical issues.
Also: People over-complicate the Latin Rite. They think it’s a big deal to learn. The OF isn’t and neither is the EF. You even get cue cards and an MC! It’s harder to learn a substantial part in a play and amateurs do that every day.
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We are “the Royal Priesthood of the Laity” but we’re too dull, nationalistic or rebellious to learn Latin responses; that seems to be the idea.
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I don’t think that is what anyone is suggesting at all. I’m certainly not. Yes, people can learn the responses fairly easily. What about the prayers which change regularly? Are they going to learn those easily as well? Do you really think that for many people putting their nose in a Missal and trying to follow along is going to lead to interior conversion in the same way that hearing the Mass in the language that they have heard and spoken their entire lives will? You may, but I don’t and neither do many others.

I think we forget sometimes that there is a reason that changes were made in the first place. Now, I will be the first to admit that the will of the council has been perverted and things were done which should not be. This seems to be slowly getting better, thank God. However, we must also consider that there is a reason that the council was called, and a reason that the bishops voted for the council documents at a ratio of 9 to 1.

Again I come back to the fact that over and over again on this forum and elsewhere, traditionalists who lament that they don’t have access to the Mass that they prefer seem to be the first ones who wish to take away the preferences of others. There have been a great number of saints since Vatican II was concluded and under the OF of the Mass. If the Mass is so deficient, how has that happened?
 
ProVobis said:
I don’t know if he meant it as a joke, but Cardinal Arinze seems to actually encourage it.

Check at 7:15

youtube.com/watch?v=vHWsmHG80vo
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I honestly don’t think so. He says that people who are “discussing” liturgical dance should spend that time praying the rosary. I don’t think he means that people doing the dance in the Mass should instead pray the rosary during Mass. I interpret that as saying that instead of talking about this and trying to get what they want, they should pray instead and see Mary as an example of obedience and humility. Of course, I could easily be incorrect on my assertions.

As Brother JR has already mentioned, the Rosary, while a wonderful devotion, is just that, a devotion. It is not liturgical prayer and should never be substituted as such.
 
ProVobis said:
In the sense that all Masses and Divine Liturgies should focus on the same substance, yes.
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Yes of course, but also in the sense that the OF of the Mass has the same rubrics throughout the world. There is one Roman Missal for everyone, regardless of the language it is translated into. Its the same Mass, just as the Bible is the same Bible.
 
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