The Latin Mass: Why You Can't Have It

[Petersmate]

Think of it this way. The Church is like one country. One people. It doesn’t matter where you’re from. This one people should have one language. The language of the Church as chosen by God is Latin. If I go from New York to France to Germany, today, I would hear one Mass in English (which I understand), one mass in France (which I don’t understand), and one mass in Germany (which I don’t understand). With the Mass in one language everywhere in the world, I can simply bring my Latin missal and have my Latin to English translation or just simply know the Latin. Everyone in the church would be in unity.

If anyone says, why should I spend time learning Latin? Well, it does not take much for someone to learn basic prayers in Latin. It does not take much for someone to learn some beautiful hymns such as Te Deum, Adoro Te Devote, etc. What, it may take you a week to learn each? If these are things glorifying the Lord, how can we not put the effort to learn them? Why would we not want to learn the Mass in Latin if we are going to go to that Mass once or more every week for our entire lives?

I never understand why people bash the Latin.

So in a nutshell we didn’t “hold fast to our traditions”

 

[Petersmate]

First of all, the piece is not about the Novus Ordo Missae, which was, as a matter of record, background history and curial intrigue notwithstanding, promulgated by Pope Paul VI. It says this on the title page of every copy thereof. Second, the article was the result of extensive experience which is explained in vivid detail therein, as well as research into the attendance at the Traditional Mass in two very different jurisdictions.

You have written nothing to challenge this, and what little you did write is … well, irrelevant. I invite you to “read it again. Slowly.”

Novus Ordo was not given to us by Pope Paul. t

you tare something down it takes a long time to build it back up

 

[manwithblackhat]

Novus Ordo was not given to us by Pope Paul.

Then pray tell us, who did, as a matter of record, and prove it.

I can. You can’t.

DLA

 

[JReducation]

Think of it this way. The Church is like one country. One people. It doesn’t matter where you’re from. This one people should have one language.

This does not hold true in many ways, my friend. Let’s first look at secular nations. Most nations today are not monolingual. Even the USA has two unofficial languages: English and Spanish. Other nations have more than one official language in their constitutions, such as Spain: Spanish, Basque, Gallego, and Catalan.

The language of the Church as chosen by God is Latin.

Whoever told you this is in error. The Church is made up of 23 sui iuris Churches. Each has it’s own language. Each of those language has evolved through history. For example, Greek Catholics today, not not pray in Koine Greek used during the first centuries of the Church. However, they do not use Latin either. God did not choose a language for his Church. The different languages used in the Church came through the normal course of historical development and cultural evolution influenced more by geography than spirituality.

If I go from New York to France to Germany, today, I would hear one Mass in English (which I understand), one mass in France (which I don’t understand), and one mass in Germany (which I don’t understand). With the Mass in one language everywhere in the world, I can simply bring my Latin missal and have my Latin to English translation or just simply know the Latin. Everyone in the church would be in unity.

You attend the Roman Rite mass regularly, you would understand the mass in any language, because you can follow the visual cues. The only thing that you would not understand would be the readings or the homily. But that is also the case when the mass is celebrated in Latin. The readings can be done in the local language and the sermon is in the dominant language.

I lived in Rome for 7 years while working on my STD. I heard mass in every possible European language, since the Pontifical Universities in Rome host seminarians, priests and brothers from around the world and each priest celebrates mass in his language. We had to attend the mass what was being celebrated. The only thing that changed was that the readings and homily were always in Italian. The mass itself was in the language of the celebrant. None of us were lost. You can visually follow and know exactly where you are and what the prayer is. You can can also bring a missal.

If anyone says, why should I spend time learning Latin? Well, it does not take much for someone to learn basic prayers in Latin. It does not take much for someone to learn some beautiful hymns such as Te Deum, Adoro Te Devote, etc. What, it may take you a week to learn each? If these are things glorifying the Lord, how can we not put the effort to learn them? Why would we not want to learn the Mass in Latin if we are going to go to that Mass once or more every week for our entire lives?

I never understand why people bash the Latin.

First of all, you can worship God in any language, including sign language, which I have seen masses entirely in ASL, where the priest whispers the prayers and signs at the same time.

Second, while there are some people who bash Latin, which is ridiculous, because Latin is part of the Latin Catholic Church, as Greek is part of the Greek Catholic Church, it is also upsetting to some people who do appreciate Latin, but choose not to use it or to use it on some occassions to have people shoving it in your face 24/7.

The bashing is wrong, so is pushing and pushing.

I’ll give you an example. In my community, mass is in Latin. Normally, we celebrate the Ordinary Form in Latin and on special occasions we use the Extraordinary Form. This year, we’ll be using the EF for the Feast of Bl. John Paul on October 22, which we must observe, because it’s on the Franciscan calendar.

Despite the fact that we use Latin more than the average parish, it bothers us to no end when people push it and push it and push it. It’s like loving pizza, until someone puts 10 pies in front of you. Then your stomach does not feel so well.

I literally had to stop a brother from yanking off a Traditionalist’s head over this. This brother prays in Latin everyday. But every time we had a ministry meeting, this person would ask, “Why they couldn’t have the mass in Latin” or “Make statements such as the one you made, ‘Latin is God’s language’.”

One day, Brother was not in a good mood. When the person started up, the brother stood up and told him to leave the room immediately and that he would speak to him later. I had to intervene before the brother spoke to him. I knew that he had had it with the perseveration. It’s like the sales person who keeps asking you if he can help you, even though you’ve told him five times that you’re doing fine on your own. After a while, you may decide to leave the store without the article that you need.

We have to slow down here. There are people who unnecessarily bash Latin. There are also people who are like marketers. They can’t stop themselves from trying to make a sale. Both of these people trigger a negative response from the middle section. Often what happens is that you get the opposite response. If you push, the other person leans into you. If you pull toward you, the other person resists by pulling in the opposite direction. Do you see what I’m saying?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[LightBound]

This does not hold true in many ways, my friend. Let’s first look at secular nations. Most nations today are not monolingual. Even the USA has two unofficial languages: English and Spanish. Other nations have more than one official language in their constitutions, such as Spain: Spanish, Basque, Gallego, and Catalan.

Whoever told you this is in error. The Church is made up of 23 sui iuris Churches. Each has it’s own language. Each of those language has evolved through history. For example, Greek Catholics today, not not pray in Koine Greek used during the first centuries of the Church. However, they do not use Latin either. God did not choose a language for his Church. The different languages used in the Church came through the normal course of historical development and cultural evolution influenced more by geography than spirituality.

You attend the Roman Rite mass regularly, you would understand the mass in any language, because you can follow the visual cues. The only thing that you would not understand would be the readings or the homily. But that is also the case when the mass is celebrated in Latin. The readings can be done in the local language and the sermon is in the dominant language.

I lived in Rome for 7 years while working on my STD. I heard mass in every possible European language, since the Pontifical Universities in Rome host seminarians, priests and brothers from around the world and each priest celebrates mass in his language. We had to attend the mass what was being celebrated. The only thing that changed was that the readings and homily were always in Italian. The mass itself was in the language of the celebrant. None of us were lost. You can visually follow and know exactly where you are and what the prayer is. You can can also bring a missal.

First of all, you can worship God in any language, including sign language, which I have seen masses entirely in ASL, where the priest whispers the prayers and signs at the same time.

Second, while there are some people who bash Latin, which is ridiculous, because Latin is part of the Latin Catholic Church, as Greek is part of the Greek Catholic Church, it is also upsetting to some people who do appreciate Latin, but choose not to use it or to use it on some occassions to have people shoving it in your face 24/7.

The bashing is wrong, so is pushing and pushing.

I’ll give you an example. In my community, mass is in Latin. Normally, we celebrate the Ordinary Form in Latin and on special occasions we use the Extraordinary Form. This year, we’ll be using the EF for the Feast of Bl. John Paul on October 22, which we must observe, because it’s on the Franciscan calendar.

Despite the fact that we use Latin more than the average parish, it bothers us to no end when people push it and push it and push it. It’s like loving pizza, until someone puts 10 pies in front of you. Then your stomach does not feel so well.

I literally had to stop a brother from yanking off a Traditionalist’s head over this. This brother prays in Latin everyday. But every time we had a ministry meeting, this person would ask, “Why they couldn’t have the mass in Latin” or “Make statements such as the one you made, ‘Latin is God’s language’.”

One day, Brother was not in a good mood. When the person started up, the brother stood up and told him to leave the room immediately and that he would speak to him later. I had to intervene before the brother spoke to him. I knew that he had had it with the perseveration. It’s like the sales person who keeps asking you if he can help you, even though you’ve told him five times that you’re doing fine on your own. After a while, you may decide to leave the store without the article that you need.

We have to slow down here. There are people who unnecessarily bash Latin. There are also people who are like marketers. They can’t stop themselves from trying to make a sale. Both of these people trigger a negative response from the middle section. Often what happens is that you get the opposite response. If you push, the other person leans into you. If you pull toward you, the other person resists by pulling in the opposite direction. Do you see what I’m saying?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[LilyM]

Think of it this way. The Church is like one country. One people. It doesn’t matter where you’re from. This one people should have one language. The language of the Church as chosen by God is Latin. If I go from New York to France to Germany, today, I would hear one Mass in English (which I understand), one mass in France (which I don’t understand), and one mass in Germany (which I don’t understand). With the Mass in one language everywhere in the world, I can simply bring my Latin missal and have my Latin to English translation or just simply know the Latin. Everyone in the church would be in unity.

If anyone says, why should I spend time learning Latin? Well, it does not take much for someone to learn basic prayers in Latin. It does not take much for someone to learn some beautiful hymns such as Te Deum, Adoro Te Devote, etc. What, it may take you a week to learn each? If these are things glorifying the Lord, how can we not put the effort to learn them? Why would we not want to learn the Mass in Latin if we are going to go to that Mass once or more every week for our entire lives?

I never understand why people bash the Latin.

So for everyone to learn Latin is the answer? - well the homily for starters is still going to be in vernacular, so Latin won’t help there.

And it has proven much easier for me to learn ‘a few basic prayers’ in French if I intend to travel to France, or German or the language of wherever I intend to travel. Because those languages are living, and I know people for whom French, German and whatnot are their native tongues, and so they can impart an understanding to me that comes from a level of fluency that simply no-one possesses when it comes to Latin!

 

[manwithblackhat]

Novus Ordo was not given to us by Pope Paul.

My piece was not about the “Novus Ordo” to begin with, but let’s go over this again.

In the third editio typica of the English-language Sacramentary, the title page reads thus (and it’s in all caps, so is rendered here as such):

THE ROMAN MISSAL

RENEWED BY DECREE OF
THE MOST HOLY SECOND ECUMENICAL COUNCIL OF THE VATICAN,
PROMULGATED BY AUTHORITY OF POPE PAUL VI
AND REVISED AT THE DIRECTION OF POPE JOHN PAUL II.

Now, the intervening process that culminated in the above notwithstanding (and I have concerns about it as well), this is what the record says. My article, and as far as I’m concerned, my discussion here, is confined (I can only hope from here on in) to the application of the motu proprio Summorum Pontificum for the Traditional Mass, and the issues addressed by my article.

DLA

 

[ProVobis]

The mass itself was in the language of the celebrant. None of us were lost. You can visually follow and know exactly where you are and what the prayer is.

Br JR, you may still have a problem, though. It took me three Spanish Masses before I figured out the Creed was skipped altogether in the first two. The Gloria was nicely sung by guitar but it wasn’t the text. And I still don’t know which Preface or EP was being used, but I did recognize the consecration.

Now what you say about the sermon of another language is true, but there are many instances at the beginning of the Mass where the priest will follow his “Good morning” with a lot of pastoral comments. At those points I don’t know whether it’s part of the text or not. There are no changes in the visuals. I bring a side-by-side Latin-Spanish printout but I’m afraid there are just too many options for me to follow even if were to learn Spanish fluently. So I just go with the flow and make the best of it. The effort keeps me awake.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

Had a notion, recently:

In the Catholic Church: A.B.L. (Anything But Latin)
Amongst Christians: A.B.C. (Anything But Catholicism)
In the World: A.B.C. (Anything But Christianity)

 

[TrueLight]

Had a notion, recently:

In the Catholic Church: A.B.L. (Anything But Latin)
Amongst Christians: A.B.C. (Anything But Catholicism)
In the World: A.B.C. (Anything But Christianity)