The Latin(o) Mass

[10thCrusader]

It’s very understandable. Take a few examples.

1. Spain handed the government of the colonies to the Conquistadores. As the title says, they were Conquerors. These were not nice pilgrims looking for a new home.
2. When there was a problem, it took six months for a letter to reach the Spanish and Portuguese crown and six more months to get a response. In the meantime, the colonial governors ruled like lords. They could be as corrupt as possible, because the crown was not present.

3 The wealthy who came built the big cities and the huge cathedrals that mimicked those of Europe. The first thing that the natives noticed was that Jesus, the Blessed Mother and the saints did not look like them. They were very European looking… Our art does not represent Mary and Jesus with darker skin. In Mexico, they have Our Lady of Guadalupe. She appeared as an Aztec Princess. The Latin Americans never really had a single image of Christ and his mother that even looked Jewish, just less like them.

Pedagogic lectures like this on past cruelties do not serve any purpose, but to create divisions, and only serve to further ghettoize the minorities by harping on their oppressed status. The pre-Columbian Americans were no angels either. The ruling classes were horribly oppressive and committed terrible atrocities against the lower classes and captured tribes.

We can learn from history, but there’s no point in just dredging it up to create bad feeling and divisions. Most modern Americans are past that. Again, I’m waiting for those constructive ideas…

 

[The_Curt_Jester]

My home parish has a Mexican community, but they are entirely separated from the rest of the parish. They have their own fundraisers, their own activities, their own staff, their own Mass, their own groups, and they rarely interact with any of the other parishioners. As someone said earlier in this thread, it’s like having two parishes. Having a TLM that they can all attend would actually be something to draw them together instead of driving them further apart as the cultural liturgies end up doing.

As for those who like the TLM being higher-class, that’s not my experience. My family never has been higher class and they prefer the TLM. And yes, we’re hispanic/latino/whateveryoucallit.

 

[JustaServant]

JR, I guess I have a higher opinion of my Spanish-speaking brothers-in-Christ. I don’t think their motivations are born out of hatred or intolerance, and I don’t think it’s proper to make such broad generalizations about them. I think as Juan said, it depends where you live. In some places they may feel more comfortable in their own cultural setting, as the greater society around them is too different.

There was nothing in JR’s post like that, he always writes in a scholarly fashion.
You’re fishin’ dude.
Pardon the pun.

 

[simple_soul]

Pedagogic lectures like this on past cruelties do not serve any purpose, but to create divisions, and only serve to further ghettoize the minorities by harping on their oppressed status. The pre-Columbian Americans were no angels either. The ruling classes were horribly oppressive and committed terrible atrocities against the lower classes and captured tribes.

We can learn from history, but there’s no point in just dredging it up to create bad feeling and divisions. Most modern Americans are past that. Again, I’m waiting for those constructive ideas…

*I believe you may be mising the point of Br. Jay’s post. I beleive his post was to show that we have very good reasons to not try and push the EF Mass on them and to be very understanding of why they may not want to go to an EF Mass and to have patience with them.
*

 

[JustaServant]

Pedagogic lectures like this on past cruelties do not serve any purpose, but to create divisions, and only serve to further ghettoize the minorities by harping on their oppressed status. The pre-Columbian Americans were no angels either. The ruling classes were horribly oppressive and committed terrible atrocities against the lower classes and captured tribes.

We can learn from history, but there’s no point in just dredging it up to create bad feeling and divisions. Most modern Americans are past that. Again, I’m waiting for those constructive ideas…

You must be reading a different post than I did. What’s your beef dude? There is nothing in JR’s post that warrents this response.
Again, you’re* fishin’*

 

[JuantheTuba]

I’ve never experienced any of this “european” hatred Br. JR claims.

 

[Merlin89]

From all this talks,I find out that all the issue is based on two prominent things and that is:1)CULTURAL ATTACHMENT which tend to supersede the FAITH.2)GROUP’s PSYCHOLOGY TOWARDS OTHER GROUP PERSONALITY which had been there even since in the time of their ancestors and still linger to the present age,may be due to problem of who is minority and majority…This kind of competition is not HEALTHY for the church.

---

FATHER LET THEM BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE,I IN YOU and YOU IN ME--------JESUS

 

[Melchior_1]

10thcrusader,

Maybe instead of baseless accusations of racism, including gossiping about others on other message boards where they cannot view what you have written, perhaps you consider participating in the Septuagesima and get yourself ready for Lent.

 

[JustaServant]

10thcrusader,

Maybe instead of baseless accusations of racism, including gossiping about others on other message boards where they cannot view what you have written, perhaps you consider participating in the Septuagesima and get yourself ready for Lent.

The ‘other board’ is public. Anyone can go there and read what he wrote.

 

[10thCrusader]

My home parish has a Mexican community, but they are entirely separated from the rest of the parish. They have their own fundraisers, their own activities, their own staff, their own Mass, their own groups, and they rarely interact with any of the other parishioners. As someone said earlier in this thread, it’s like having two parishes. Having a TLM that they can all attend would actually be something to draw them together instead of driving them further apart as the cultural liturgies end up doing.

As for those who like the TLM being higher-class, that’s not my experience. My family never has been higher class and they prefer the TLM. And yes, we’re hispanic/latino/whateveryoucallit.

The separation of the Spanish-speaking and English-speaking communities in the parish has always disturbed me greatly. When we first started the Latin Mass in our old parish back in 1994, we were really excited about the possibility of providing a means of unity between the English-speaking community and the large Spanish-speaking community in our parish. We diligently laid out the white Latin-Spanish missal booklets next to the red Latin-English missal booklets in the back of the church every Sunday, but none of the Spanish-speaking Catholics came.

I think a lot of the Latin Mass groups hoped that this would also happen, as I see a few of the white Latin-Spanish missal booklets in the other EF Masses I have attended. They don’t set them out as often any more though. I think they have given up on the idea. It’s sad. It could have been such a great opportunity. As a cultural Hispanic, can you think of some means to revive this potential for unity?

 

[maryjk]

10thcrusader,

Maybe instead of baseless accusations of racism, including gossiping about others on other message boards where they cannot view what you have written, perhaps you consider participating in the Septuagesima and get yourself ready for Lent.

The ‘other board’ is public. Anyone can go there and read what he wrote.

It is “public” to view. But you must be approved to post. Or search.

 

[carlos19]

When speaking about the Latino community, we must remember that it’s a very complex community. Watch.

1. Latino is anyone from Latin America.
2. Hispanic is anyone of Spanish ancestry.
3. Not all Latin Americans are Hispanic.
4. Not all Hispanics are Latin Americans.

There is cultural divide there, to begin with. To assume that one size fits all, does not work.

Now watch this.

In Latin America there are three races and two blends.

Caucasian - race

Negroid - race

Mongoloid - race

Mestizo - mix

Mulato - mix

This creates more differences.

All of these differences influence how they worship, be it in common or individually.

Then we have to add the last and most important piece of all.

The Caucasian Latin American Catholic is very attached to his or her European roots. He eats European food. He designs European buildings. He writes European Spanish. He is very attached to European Catholicism. However, he’s a minority in Latin America.

The Native American people (Mongoloid), also known as the Indigenous people and the Mestizos make up the largest percentage of the population in Latin America, about 80%. They hate the Europeans. They refuse to follow anything that tastes, smells like, looks like, or feels like Europe. The Mestizos are the children of the Indigenous population and the Europeans. They were forced to adapt European way of life. As soon as they became independent nations, they took over their countries and their first act was to dismantle what the Europeans had built.

This was a very bad idea. This opened the door for corruption at all levels. This corruption is still going on and getting stronger. But in that dismantling, was also Catholicism.

They wanted nothing to do with European Catholicism.

The Catholic faith would have been lost in Latin America had it not been for the presence of the Franciscans, Dominicans and Jesuits. The three orders persuaded Rome to allow the local people to Christianize the culture rather than Romanize the Catholic faith.

After many years, Latin American Catholics are beginning to trust the European Church. For a very long time, there were two Catholic Churches in Latin America. In some places you had what one could call “High Catholic”. These were parishes that were just like those in Spain, Portugal, England, and Italy.

Then you had what you could call “Low Catholic.” These were parishes that were very different from the European model. They are usually in the smaller towns. If they exist in the larger cities, they are in the poorer neighborhoods.

With the arrival of the Salesians, the Daughters of Charity, the De La Salle Christian Brothers and the IHM sisters from Europe, Catholic education became available to most people. It has done a good job at breaking down these barriers. But it has not finished. There are still barriers.

It will be a small movement of Latinos toward the EF. Most of the Hispanics that I know who attend the EF are from the upper classes of Latin America or they are Hispanic American. Hispanic Americans are not Latinos. They’re Americans. You will find very few from the masses at the EF.

I have no doubt that they will come, but it will be slow. Their problem is not the Holy Mass. Their problem is that they have long memories and a short love affair with anything European.

Now, they are even more resistant to certain things, because the Holy See has taken some positions in favor of the developing nations that make Europe and the USA look very badly. We want to avoid presenting the EF as too European or too American.

It’s very tricky.

I have family in all parts of mexico, north south and central. Three very different parts…kind of like the cultural differences in the various regions across the us. I have never come across hated for anything european, and some of us are very poor while others are part of the small middle class. All of us are mestizo. Did you pick this up in some textbook or something…this is not true…and also while Spanish had its roots in Latin…trusty me when i say that they are very different. I can’t understand it…except for the occasional rare word…i find your post rather offensive

 

[Melchior_1]

The point of Brother’s post was to highlight how there can be diversity within one ethnic group, and that Euro-Catholicism is not a one-size-fits-all solution. Keep in mind that Brother JR comes from the Franciscan family, where this thought is well documented through history. St. Maximilian Kolbe, for example, did not bring Euro-Catholicism to Japan.

I would also take up the discussion point that Euro-Catholicism may not fit in the States anymore, especially considering;

A) Immigration was resulted in culture shifts in several areas.

B) The States literally fought a war to remove themselves from European influences.

 

[pnewton]

I’m not feeling the esteem from your words. You seem to be examining them like bugs under a microscope. I have Mexican relatives by marriage, and I do find such negative and patronizing generalizations a bit insulting to them. I know my relatives from Guadalajara would be offended by such a post.

Perhaps you need to do as the Catechism instructs us and assume the best, not the worst, from our fellow Christians. This problem seems more of a reflection on your own feelings, not anything said, unless there was a **specific **thing said you find uncharitable?

Yet with all the misunderstanding here I can see why at times the Catholic Church has tried to direct some writings only to theologians and the clergy. Not everything is perceived the same by academics and laity.

 

[carlos19]

You must be reading a different post than I did. What’s your beef dude? There is nothing in JR’s post that warrents this response.
Again, you’re* fishin’*

Noone is fishing. It was offensive. I was born in America of Mexican parents. My first language was Spanish. I lived in Mexico. My heart though is American. If there is any prevalent hatred…is is sadly directed at America. I am not one to be easily offended. That post offended me. It painted a rather distorted image …and untrue image of a culture that i know.

 

[pnewton]

Noone is fishing. It was offensive.

The precise wording should be you perceived it as offensive. There was no name calling or evil intent.

 

[pnewton]

I too live among hispanics in my parish. I am in the small minority of non-hispanics (about 20%). About a third of us speak English only, about a third (maybe less) Spanish only and bi-lingual people are the most common. We started a few years back using Latin in Mass on Fridays and one common Holy Days to come together in a single Mass. I think the OP has a valid point, though the use of the form is not what brings unity as much as the language. We have also had a joint seminar two years back on Gregorian Chant between the two languages and have incorporated that into the Masses. As we go on, this has given me the opportunity to expand both Latin and chant into other Masses.

 

[10thCrusader]

Noone is fishing. It was offensive. I was born in America of Mexican parents. My first language was Spanish. I lived in Mexico. My heart though is American. If there is any prevalent hatred…is is sadly directed at America. I am not one to be easily offended. That post offended me. It painted a rather distorted image …and untrue image of a culture that i know.

Having Mexicans in my family (by marriage), and I know a lot of their views. It bothered me that JR was making generalizations about a whole group of people, attributing to them sinful dispositions of hatred and envy. this type of rhetoric only serves to widen the divisions.

I have never seen anything but friendship and charity from people of the Hispanic cultures. Maybe even more so than from my own European culture. And I’m not just talking about people of Mexican background. In my old Latin Mass parish in Pittsburgh, I had a lot of friends from Puerto Rico.

Have you ever been to a Tridentine Latin Mass? I look forward to the day when we see more people from the Spanish-speaking community in our Latin Mass parish. I love the feeling of unity of coming together in one universal celebration. :extrahappy:

 

[mfrances]

Having Mexicans in my family (by marriage), and I know a lot of their views. It bothered me that JR was making generalizations about a whole group of people, attributing to them sinful dispositions of hatred and envy. this type of rhetoric only serves to widen the divisions.

I have never seen anything but friendship and charity from people of the Hispanic cultures. Maybe even more so than from my own European culture. And I’m not just talking about people of Mexican background. In my old Latin Mass parish in Pittsburgh, I had a lot of friends from Puerto Rico.

Have you ever been to a Tridentine Latin Mass? I look forward to the day when we see more people from the Spanish-speaking community in our Latin Mass parish. I love the feeling of unity of coming together in one universal celebration. :extrahappy:

You misunderstand Brother JR. There truly is a distancing that many latinos, especially the poorer immigrant communities, have towards “white” influence, just like some black people have the the idea that “the white man is holding them down”. It’s not mere generalizing. Just because your relatives don’t subscribe to these views does’t mean it is incorrect. Your relatives could be very educated and beyond having such views, good for them.

The reality is that the Hispanic community mostly wants their own separate Mass, a parish within a parish, and you have to keep in mind that just becuase the people ‘understand’ the Latin language being spoken at the Latin Mass, there are other cultural and historic factors to consider.

I attend the TLM once a month, and I can’t think of any Spanish speaking people that go there. But anyway, blessings on your endevour to welcome Latinos to the TLM.

 

[pnewton]

Generalization? He used the word “differences” four times, “diversity” once and “diverse” once. He no more generalized about a whole group of hispanics than he did about a whole group religious. Now we can believe that culture does not exist, that history does not exist, or is irrelevant, or that two have nothing to do with each other. Perhaps what we have here is a lack of understanding of English. It is not rhetoric, but academic to speak of historical trends and their effects without every five words throwing a disclaimer in for the easily offended or politically correct.