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Peter_J
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Well said. And it’s all the more troubling when some, like Franklin Graham, connect the term “conversion therapy” with the religious sense of the word conversion.
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jcrichton
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Hi, Fred!This is a pretty controversial topic so I fully expect some strong disagreement which is welcome. Moderators please feel free to move this thread (I didn’t see a hot topics section) or even delete if you feel you need to. I won’t be offended.
I’m working on a coherent Christian theology that upholds the old Law/Torah observance not as salvation but as an indentation for sanctification, faith in action, and discipleship.
However the Torah forbids homosexuality pretty clearly in Leviticus. You could argue Paul does as well.
It is my opinion that the church spends way too much energy on this topic. How wonderful it would be the church was up in arms about the other moral commandments. Though in fairness this a strength of the Catholic Church that they have been a champion of the poor, the refugee and the disenfranchised. The baptists not so much
I also think that condemning homosexuality in individuals and forbidding them from service I the church does a lot of harm. This is my opinion but I have seen the real pain in gay friends and in gay clergy (I’m espicopalian).
By the way, I’m heterosexual and married with kids. I’m a democrat but not a extreme liberal by any means.
So if I talk about Torah observance, I’m necessarily condemning homosexuality unless I specifically address the issue in order not to.
Here’s my argument. Someone’s sexual orientation and moral conduct in general is ultimately between God and them. Our observance of the commandments is personal and not an open invitation to judge the lives and faiths or others lest we become Judaisers.
Condemning homosexuality in and of itself (rather than specific issues such as sexual exploitation not specific to one sexual orientation) would be causing psychological harm and be unloving and would violate other commandments to love your neighbor, not to shame others, etc.
Finnaly, committed homosexual relationships are opportunities for fulfilling other commandments and could be forced for good and compassion. A foster child without a home would be lucky to have a functional, loving family that happens to be have two parents of ten same gender. Same sex spouses can encourage each other in their vocations and faith commitments.
Okay, I know I said some stuff you may strongly disagree with. Feel free to help correct my understanding
Shalom,
Fred
…by your argument, since I am poor, there should be no judgment if the only way for me to make money is to sell/transport guns/drugs or through promotion of prostitution (which would include all sorts)… as a matter of fact, neither would be becoming a killer for hire or trafficking in body parts/organs (even if I have to kill to get those parts)… after all, it’s just between God and me, isn’t it?
The homosexual argument would make of Yahweh God a homophobe who is so wrong and unrighteous that he should allow someone else to take His place (hey, perhaps they can call on Lucifer–he took a shot at it some time ago).
The problem with your summation is that you think that Judaism is able to determine its own rules… and that it passed false understanding to “Christians.”
…do you believe that Jesus is God?
Was it not Jesus that determined that marriage is indissoluble and between One Man and One Woman in God?
…does Romans 1 not faze you?:
(Romans 1:24-33)
The Word of God is not an “elective” subject nor open to cultural interpretations and whims!
…Narrow is the Gate (Jesus) and hard the Path (Obedience to His Commandment) that leads to Salvation.
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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Hi, Fred!
…this is the calamity of “political correctness…” it makes people such as the Pope dance with death and think that they are being enlightened.
AIDS: acquired immune deficiency syndrome – this means that the practice itself kills/destroys the human nature (system); yet, people want to embrace it and hold everyone responsible for the consequences of its practice.
It is the same for immorality; man knows that sin kills, yet he continues to engage in a sinful life?
…condoning and enabling will not make the wages of sin become Life!
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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Hi, Fred!That’s an interesting application of that teaching here. One I wouldn’t agree with
I’ve been thinking more about it and you have the right approach. We take the OT law but then we need to see what Jesus says.
But Jesus as far as I know doesn’t address homosexuality directly but there are other teachings about sex and marriage that I think clearly apply.
The woman at the well: Jesus knows she has been unfaithful with five husbands and living with a man not her husband. He names the sin and doesn’t make light of it. He’s famous for his condemning one liners. But He still offers her eternal life and living water.
The stoning of the adulterous woman: he says let he who is sinless cast the first stone, **but he also tells her to go sin no more.**Let no man put asunder: Jesus tells us that God ordains marriage and it is God and **before couples are joined. It is not a human institution **to do with as we like without respect to the creator of marriage.
And… the refusal to ritually wash hands: Jesus does say it is what comes out of you that makes you unclean. How I intreprate that is not a denial of the commandment to purify yourself before meals and prayer, but a statement that other commandments of love and teaching and inclusion are of greater weight. Jesus was among non-observant Jews and it was a greater deed to be in thier presence than to honor the ritual. He also wanted to make a clear message that being observant was more about compassion than legalism. So back to homosexuality, this applies by saying Jesus might condemn homosexuality but we are still called like to the woman at the well to treat all people with love and to share in the invitation towards righteousness.
So I think overall Jesus takes a compassionate, moderate approach. I think you all are right that He wouldn’t agree with my original post. He would call sin sin, but He still invites all people to Him and His commandments. I’m not going to disagree with Jesus!
And… I found the quote from Pope Francis I was thinking of:
A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: ‘Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’ We must always consider the person. Here we enter into the mystery of the human being."
Exactly what I was thinking a pastoral way to approach it.
…did you noticed it?
…you are doing the dance of the Pope… yes, it’s not right; well, it’s ok, surely God does not condemn; perhaps human frailty; yep, it must be softly touched; nope, we should just let this go…
…you substituted “couple” for one man and one woman–this would go to inclusivity (as with the cultural: “partner” instead of spouse so that there should be no question of whose the husband and whose the wife, thing); Jesus was not tolerant of homosexuality; He actually stated something to the effect: ‘from the Beginning it was not so (Adam and Eve --not Adam and Steve or Eve and Danna), man and woman, in God.’
…while it is true that Jesus demonstrates a Higher Justice and Mercy, He Commands, as you’ve noted, ‘Go and sin no more!’
…can the Pope’s argument mean that God Commands go and sin some more?
Homosexuality is a sin (God has determine that) so how can the normal copulation of homosexuals not be consistent with sin? How can anyone believe that God would approve of a homosexual relationship if homosexuality remains a sin?
…again, if my job function is to break into people’s homes and steal everything of value… how can I not be held to the Commandment that forbids hurting others or the one that forbids envying or coveting… what happens when I find someone at home or if someone walks in and I kill them… is that ok since I did not set out to kill but to take something? (It’s call ramifications and consequences: bad things happens and sin’s wages are death–there’s no way around that but Jesus’: “Go and sin no more!”)
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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Evan
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Fred
This argument of between ‘God and them’ works only until they come into the Church. As written in 1 Cor 5:12-13
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Thorolfr
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Since most of the people in the world with AIDS are heterosexuals who became infected through heterosexual sex, does that say something about the sinfulness of heterosexuality?
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mVitus
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Agreed there. Even though the conclusion by jcrichton may be in accordance with Church teaching, using that particular argument is fallacious.
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ZenFred
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Yeah I can’t pick and choose commandments I like and don’t like. I shouldn’t compromise due to societal pressure.
But you mentioned drug dealers, thieves and murderers as examples. Part of Jesus’ message is an invitation to all people, even these, to repent and follow Him and God’s commandments.
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ZenFred
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I’m going to start a new thread about this. Thanks!
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jcrichton
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Hi!
…yeah… it says that the script was faked!
…in the US (and I suspect in many other nations in the world) heterosexuals have experimented in the great sexual revolutions of the sixties and seventies (when the epidemic hit the US) such clubs were closed down… and, thanks to prostitution, heterosexuals have gained many stds while the wife (for the most part) refrained from extramarital affairs…
…I do suspect that you are ignoring those factors in order to inflate your claims… but that’s another thread.
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
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Hi, Fred!
Correct!
…but the issue is the lifestyle. While I am not engaged in drug dealing… it is quite lucrative… and say I were to join that venue… would Jesus be ok with me as long as I only make so much money and never use violence/killing as part of doing business? No. I would still be destroying human lives and morality… so I could only be right by Jesus if I were to stop the act of selling drugs.
…a homosexual couple by engaging in sexual intercourse cannot but be engaged in sin…
…let’s take thins to a different front… I once met a lady who was in a relationship with a man… they were not married (Sacrament) in the Church and she wished to Receive the Eucharist… to me the answer as simple: stop having a sexual relationship with the man.
…issues arose (financial, a child, comfort…); she needed an answer… so I explained to her that she should seek the advice of the local parish Priest; I explained that the Church would require that she lived with the man in a different relationship until they got married by the Church–they could cohabitate but it would be as brother and sister (no sex)… we are no longer friends… she could not give up the relationship (sex) even if that would facilitate their coming to the Church in Fullness of Faith (able to partake of the Body of Christ).
It is the same for all sorts of relationships and all sorts of people… we can either choose to do things our way of God’s Way–seldom, in today’s society, do we find people willing to forgo their “wants” in order to abide with God’s Commandment: Be Holy, for I AM HOLY!
…I want what I want, when I want it, and God will have to wait or amend His awfully unfair demands! (…says the fool in his heart!)
Maran atha!
Angel
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ZenFred
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“Officer, we didn’t start a drug ring to break the law. It’s part of a theological experiment. Honest!”
Hmm… I really struggled with how to respond. There is a real question of how to pastoral and compassionately respond, but that is in each individual case. Sometimes it is the most kind thing to not be an enabler and point out to someone the damage their behavior is causing in their life. Sometimes, accusing someone of sin is not the compassionate choice. It all depends.
But you said this:
forgo their “wants” in order to abide with God’s Commandments
Putting theology or hypothetical pastoral cases aside this is our call that we must each answer. Do we stand repentant before the Holy God or do we make excuses and hold a portion back for ourselves like Ananias and his wife in Acts 5?
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Peter_J
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Shouldn’t that be “the sinfulness of heterosexuality outside of marriage”?
Edit: Don’t feel obliged to answer that. It just seems so odd to see “the sinfulness of heterosexuality” that I felt I had to say something.
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jcrichton
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Hi, Fred!“Officer, we didn’t start a drug ring to break the law. It’s part of a theological experiment. Honest!”
Hmm… I really struggled with how to respond. There is a real question of how to pastoral and compassionately respond, but that is in each individual case. Sometimes it is the most kind thing to not be an enabler and point out to someone the damage their behavior is causing in their life. Sometimes, accusing someone of sin is not the compassionate choice. It all depends.
But you said this:
forgo their “wants” in order to abide with God’s Commandments
Putting theology or hypothetical pastoral cases aside this is our call that we must each answer. Do we stand repentant before the Holy God or do we make excuses and hold a portion back for ourselves like Ananias and his wife in Acts 5?
Exactly!
…Jesus was very Loving and Compassionate… He Elevated the human being out of the human experience… He even chastised the religious for their fervor in exacting the legalism of the Law while absconding away with the Mercy and Love that Yahweh God uses to mitigate the Demands of His Justice… but Jesus always made it Clear: ‘…go, and sin no more.’
Too many times what we have is society and the “religious” bodies lavishing man with “feel good” theology… the old ‘God loves you just the way you are…’ This implies (when it is not openly claimed) that since God loves us, He understands our failures and our inabilities of letting go of the sinful lifestyle or sin.
Now, did Jesus hound down sinners? Did He made blanket condemnations? …of course not.
Yet, when the issues arose He did not butter things up with a: ‘God loves you, don’t worry; sin happy!’
What was Jesus Great Commission? It was: ‘…go into the world Preach the Good News, make disciples, and Baptize in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.’
There’s no judgment in telling me that selling drugs is sinful because it destroys lives; there’s no judgment in telling me that the wages of sin is death…
Now, if every conversation is about my damnation in hell and how I will never get to Heaven… well, yeah, that’s quite a bad script… Jesus never piled up the damnation and the absurdity that God will not forgive me if I Turn to God (or Turn Back, if already a Believer) with a Contrite heart and mind and if I would be willing to: ‘sin no more.’ (Isaiah 1:12-20)
Let’s see what Jesus warned about?:
(St. Matthew 24:40-44)
33 ‘Be on your guard, stay awake, because you never know when the time will come. 34 It is like a man travelling abroad: he has gone from home, and left his servants in charge, each with his own task; and he has told the doorkeeper to stay awake. 35 So stay awake, because you do not know when the master of the house is coming, evening, midnight, cockcrow, dawn; 36 if he comes unexpectedly, he must not find you asleep. 37 And what I say to you I say to all: Stay awake!’ (St. Mark 13:33-37)
Jesus is warning of how we are to be found by Him at His Parousia (incidentally, that does not mean at the end of the world–we are finite so it’s more: personal time frame (death) till the end of times (God’s appointed time); the awake/alert part is our Walk in the Spirit as the various Epistles Unfold (1 St. John 1:5-10; Ephesians 5:1-17).
Maran atha!
Angel
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Thorolfr
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More than two thirds of people in the world with AIDS live in Sub-Saharan Africa (22.9 million people), and the majority of them are women. And I doubt that this has anything to do with the sexual revolution of the sixties and seventies. You should stop using AIDS as a way to bash gay people.
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jcrichton
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Hi!
Does medical/scientific findings also bash homosexual’s?:
)
…as for the culture of sub-sahara Africa, are you aware of their practices? …are you aware of the conditions under which women live? …and is it the same strain of HIV/AIDS as in the US?
Maran atha!
Angel
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Thorolfr
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So what was the sin of the boy with hemophilia named Ryan White who got AIDS?
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1neophyte
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Newsflash: The victims of sin are not always the ones who commit the sin. It would be pure foolishness if you were to find a victim of child abuse and say, “well the child didn’t sin, so it logically concludes that no sin ever took place.” Total nonsense. Please get serious. The AIDS epidemic was spread through sexual sin. Period.
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Thorolfr
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If AIDS was spread through sexual sin, it was not a special homosexual sin since AIDS can be spread through both heterosexual sex (as is the case in most of Africa where two thirds the world’s AIDS cases exist) and homosexual sex.
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