"The Law" in Romans

[fhansen]

Hmm… no, they illustrate the point that “Jews and Greeks alike … are all under the domination of sin” (Rom 3:9).

Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4

You can nuance “all have sinned” as “all have broken the law”, but to do that, you’d have to create a distinction that separates the two groups: Jews have broken the law (of Moses) and Gentiles have broken the law (found in Scripture). The point of Romans 3:9ff, I’d assert, isn’t that there’s a distinction between Jew and Greek, but rather, that there’s no distinction: each have sinned (without, in this passage, detailing how they’ve done so); each have fallen short of God’s expectation.

Well, yes, it tells us that there’s no distinction. I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at though. Maybe the Catechism can help here. All men have the natural law written in their hearts, and are therefore accountable in any case, and this, I believe, is what St Paul is getting at in Rom 2 & 3:

**1952 There are different expressions of the moral law, all of them interrelated: eternal law - the source, in God, of all law; natural law; revealed law, comprising the Old Law and the New Law, or Law of the Gospel; finally, civil and ecclesiastical laws.

1956 The natural law, present in the heart of each man and established by reason, is universal in its precepts and its authority extends to all men. It expresses the dignity of the person and determines the basis for his fundamental rights and duties:
For there is a true law: right reason. It is in conformity with nature, is diffused among all men, and is immutable and eternal; its orders summon to duty; its prohibitions turn away from offense . . . . To replace it with a contrary law is a sacrilege; failure to apply even one of its provisions is forbidden; no one can abrogate it entirely.9 **

 

[StGerardMajella]

In general the first five chapters, but Romans Chapter 3 is particularly vexing, especially 3:19, where it says “Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.”

“…whatever the Law says” where Law refers to Torah, the rules and regulations outlined in the first five books of the Bible.

“…it speaks to those that are under the Law”: In this case, the Jewish people, who were bound to follow the Torah with all its regulations and strictures. In a secondary sense, the Christian peoples, who are bound to follow the Word may flesh, Christ.

“…so that every mouth may be silenced” - Referring to Jewish and Gentile alike, both of whom are silenced in condemnation for their transgressions against God.

“…and the whole world may be held accountable to God”: Everyone has sinned. The Law defines sin, but does not provide emancipation from sin. As Christians, it is through the sacrifice of Christ that we are emancipated.

 

[Gorgias]

Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 1 John 3:4

Well, yes, it tells us that there’s no distinction. I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at though.

What you’re saying is truth – all sin offends God, and as the Catechism reminds us, is a trespass of the moral law. What I’m getting at is the particular expression of the moral law that Paul’s referring to here: in this passage, Paul is pointing to the Scripture in general as ‘law’ that applies to all people without distinction.

All men have the natural law written in their hearts, and are therefore accountable in any case

This is very true; yet, that doesn’t seem to be Paul’s point here. Let’s take an example: if I were to quote the Constitution for you, in five or six citations, and then say, “the law says that it is so!”… what ‘law’ would you presume I’m talking about? State law? Local law? Moral law? No… given the context, in which I’m quoting verbatim and at length from the Constitution, you would say, “oh… he’s referring to the Constitution as ‘the law’ here!” Same thing in Romans 3 – the verbatim quotes from Scripture make it clear that the subsequent reference to the ‘law’ is to Scripture itself…

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Your answers will be found in here.

sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/romans/st-thomas-aquinas-on-romans

 

[Jim_Baur]

There are many kinds of laws in Romans.
**To make things more complicated, as you saw in your English class, often the word law stands by itself.
**
**Below is a list I took from Origen.
**
**
**
Origen’s Commentary p. 57, “many things are woven together in Romans”
**
**
Law of Moses
Calling of the Gentiles
Israel according to the flesh
Israel not according to the flesh
Circumcision of the flesh
Circumcision of the heart
Spiritual law
Law of the letter
Law of the flesh
Law of the members
Law of the mind
Law of sin
(Law of God 8: 7)
Inner man

 

[Jim_Baur]

There are many kinds of laws in Romans.
**To make things more complicated, as you saw in your English class, often the word law stands by itself. In other words, Law without any clarification.
**
**Below is a list I took from Origen.
**

Origen’s Commentary p. 57, “many things are woven together in Romans”

Law of Moses
Calling of the Gentiles
Israel according to the flesh
Israel not according to the flesh
Circumcision of the flesh
Circumcision of the heart
Spiritual law
Law of the letter
Law of the flesh
Law of the members
Law of the mind
Law of sin
(Law of God 8: 7)
**Inner man
**
**There are many kinds of laws in Romans.
**To make things more complicated, as you saw in your English class, often the word law stands by itself. In other words, Law without any clarification.
**
**Below is a list I took from Origen.
**

Origen’s Commentary p. 57, “many things are woven together in Romans”

Law of Moses
Calling of the Gentiles
Israel according to the flesh
Israel not according to the flesh
Circumcision of the flesh
Circumcision of the heart
Spiritual law
Law of the letter
Law of the flesh
Law of the members
Law of the mind
Law of sin
(Law of God 8: 7)
**Inner man

---

****** (Law without any clarification–thus use context)****

**

 

[Teresita99]

Can you see it now, laid out like this? Paul isn’t talking – he’s letting the Scriptures (i.e., God) talk. God is talking to all men in these Scriptures Paul quotes; so, nobody can say, “oh, that doesn’t apply to me” – in other words, “every mouth is silenced and the whole world accountable”…

But if the whole world is accountable, this makes a mockery of free will. If there is absolutely no possibility of perfect obedience, because at the final throw even a newborn is accountable for the sin of Adam and Eve, then saying that every mouth is silenced amounts to a simple “shut up”.

 

[Gorgias]

But if the whole world is accountable, this makes a mockery of free will.

Hmmm… that doesn’t seem quite right. On one hand, ‘accountability’ is precisely what proceeds from free will! On the other hand, ‘accountability’ does not obliterate the gift of God’s mercy!

If there is absolutely no possibility of perfect obedience, because at the final throw even a newborn is accountable for the sin of Adam and Eve, then saying that every mouth is silenced amounts to a simple “shut up”.

Two thoughts: Paul would agree with you that there’s absolutely no possibility of perfect obedience. That’s why he’s so insistent that the grace of God, given through faith in Jesus, which brings mercy and forgiveness of debts, is critical!

Secondly, it would seem that, in a certain sense, Paul is saying “shut up!” But, it’s not a ‘universal’ “shut up” to all humanity: Paul is in the process of showing us that accountability isn’t just something that the Jews have to worry about (since they have possession of the Mosaic law), but that we all do. So, for any Gentile who’s standing off to the side, pointing at the Jews like a Simpsonesque Nelson, laughing that they’re accountable but he’s not… well, Paul really is saying, “what? you think you’re not accountable, too?”