The law of the land, and abortion

[ManRay]

Romans 13:1-7

1 “Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same;
4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.
5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience sake.”
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7** Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.
**

 

[doormouse73]

give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar.

give to God what belongs to God…

enough said…

 

[Iron_Donkey]

How do you relate this to abortion? I imagine that you are taking this passage to say that we should obey the government unquestioningly, particularly in matters relating to abortion. But that fails twice:

1. If that argument were true, then it would have been sinful to help Jews during the holocaust. Clearly that is false, so clearly an “obey the government in all things whether you like it or not” reading is wrong.
2. Even when we are required to obey a law we don’t like (which can happen) this does not prevent us from trying to change the law.

Basically, an unjust law is no law and has no authority. If my king or whatever tells me to go slaughter a bunch of innocent children, that command has no authority behind it whatsoever and I am not bound to obey.

It’s similar to how the supreme court handles laws it strikes down, actually. The constitution is the law of the US. Any law which the court finds to be in conflict with it is not actually striken down in the sense that it was once law and the court says it is no longer law, but in the sense that the court says it was never law to begin with.

Likewise, any law which conflicts with the Eternal Law is simply not law in any real sense of the word (where “you might get punished for not following it” does not count as a real sense of the word), the opinions of our rulers non-withstanding.

 

[ManRay]

Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities.

Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience sake

This means that regardless if whether a law is just or not - you are required to be subjugated to the law. Jews knew it was wrong to be taxed by the Romans - jesus told them not to be stupid about it.

 

[catholictiger]

Romans 13:1-7

1 “Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same;
4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.
5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience sake.”
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7** Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom**; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

this passage doesn’t tell us to stand around and not change the law if it is contrary to the eternal law of God, we must work to change it.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities.

Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience sake

This means that regardless if whether a law is just or not - you are required to be subjugated to the law. Jews knew it was wrong to be taxed by the Romans - Jesus told them not to be stupid about it.

Not quiet. Otherwise people would have been required to hand over Jews to Nazis.

Again, an unjust law is no law. A law we don’t like but which is not actively unjust (taxes are just, though painful) must be obeyed. An unjust law, not so much.

And none of that, even if it meant what you thought it does (which I am not coming anywhere close to agreeing with) says nothing about trying to change the law.

 

[Lancer]

Romans 13:1-7

1 "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. [Pro-abortion rulers are not for good]Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good][being pro-life is good] , and you will have praise from the same;
4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, [but if the ruler is a cause for evil he is not a minister of God] an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.
5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience sake." **
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom**; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

Your highlighted verses, 1 & 7, are part of the story…to get “the rest of the story”…and get it right…you must read and understand verses 3 & 4…and verse 5 is the bottom line:…“conscience”…otherwise God would be sanctioning/requiring his faithful to do or to cooperate or to promote evil…obviously non-starters for God. And if a faithful Catholic forms his/her conscience IAW the faith and moral teachings of the Magisterium (a requirement of the Church*)…he/she would not only be obeying the primal law of God i.e., we must always follow our conscience…he/she would be following Truth…not something but a person…Our Lord Jesus Christ ( “…I am the Way, the Truth and the Life…”–John 14:6). All must follow their conscience even if it is only based on the god’s Natural Law which is given to and implanted in every heart (but can easily become darkened and silenced by sin and by living in a “cesspool” culture and simply “inhaling” its stench).

So verse 1 & 7 are not necessarily a problem…no matter who the ruler is…by evidence of scripture (Pharaoh in Egypt, Babylonians while in exile, and Romans in Palestine…especially Matt 22:21 “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s and to God to the things that are God’s”). But…Verses 1 & 7 are not a muzzle from God to allow his faithful to cooperate or accept evil. We are required to oppose evil and injustices…using all legitimate opportunities, also provided by God, to oppose evil, correct injustices and even replace the ruler/government.

Lastly:
**

One political candidate was willing and able to bring inflation under control, increase employment, provide housing, increase energy supplies and sources, build good roads, initiate a youth program, and revive national spirit in a country with a sagging morale. He did all these things, but was not pro-life. His name: Adolf Hitler.

**
Father T.G. Morrow Why Vote Pro-Life

Pax Christi

2039 Ministries should be exercised in a spirit of fraternal service and dedication to the Church, in the name of the Lord. At the same time the conscience of each person should avoid confining itself to individualistic considerations in its moral judgments of the person’s own acts. As far as possible conscience should take account of the good of all, as expressed in the moral law, natural and revealed, and consequently in the law of the Church and in the authoritative teaching of the Magisterium on moral questions.* Personal conscience and reason should not be set in opposition to the moral law or the Magisterium of the Church.**

Note: For my thoughts and comments…I have used Father D. D. Theissen’s analysis of the Letter of Paul to the Romans…*A Catholic Commentary on the New Testament *.

 

[mymamamary]

Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities.

Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience sake

This means that regardless if whether a law is just or not - you are required to be subjugated to the law. Jews knew it was wrong to be taxed by the Romans - jesus told them not to be stupid about it.

Dear Man Ray, Our Lord also told us something:

Render unto ceasar what is Ceasar, and give to GOD what belongs to GOD !!

 

[mymamamary]

Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities.

Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience sake

This means that regardless if whether a law is just or not - you are required to be subjugated to the law. Jews knew it was wrong to be taxed by the Romans - jesus told them not to be stupid about it.

Your Theological logic is scary and depressing. Might I recommend some St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica??

 

[Lancer]

The morally and logically coherent teaching of the Catholic Church on these verses.

Pax Christi

**CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION
**

The duties of citizens

2238 Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts:43 "Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God."44 Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.

2239 It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. The love and service of one’s country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity. Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.

2240 Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country:

Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.45
[Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.46​

The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."47

2241 The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens​

.

2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s."48 “We must obey God rather than men”:49

When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50​

2243 Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.

The political community and the Church

2244 Every institution is inspired, at least implicitly, by a vision of man and his destiny, from which it derives the point of reference for its judgment, its hierarchy of values, its line of conduct. Most societies have formed their institutions in the recognition of a certain preeminence of man over things. Only the divinely revealed religion has clearly recognized man’s origin and destiny in God, the Creator and Redeemer. The Church invites political authorities to measure their judgments and decisions against this inspired truth about God and man:

Societies not recognizing this vision or rejecting it in the name of their independence from God are brought to seek their criteria and goal in themselves or to borrow them from some ideology. Since they do not admit that one can defend an objective criterion of good and evil, they arrogate to themselves an explicit or implicit totalitarian power over man and his destiny, as history shows.51​

2245 The Church, because of her commission and competence, is not to be confused in any way with the political community. She is both the sign and the safeguard of the transcendent character of the human person. "The Church respects and encourages the political freedom and responsibility of the citizen."52

2246 It is a part of the Church’s mission "to pass moral judgments even in matters related to politics, whenever the fundamental rights of man or the salvation of souls requires it. The means, the only means, she may use are those which are in accord with the Gospel and the welfare of all men according to the diversity of times and circumstances."53

 

[ManRay]

Your Theological logic is scary and depressing. Might I recommend some St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica??

Ive read it. I agree that your logic is scary also. That’s what I say to people who don’t agree with me. You’re wrong and scary. Maybe I will become catholic. It seems pretty easy. Every single point, and any thing in contention is just explained away. I’ve posted ideas that some of the greatest minds in history have had trouble with on this forum, and NOT ONE CATHOLIC has even paused for thought. Not one catholic is EVER wrong about anything. I find that to be scary…and very telling.

 

[ManRay]

The morally and logically coherent teaching of the Catholic Church on these verses.

Pax Christi

Right - while it was always a sin to have an abortion - it wasn’t always considered murder as evidenced in writings from popes and church doctors. If there was an objective reality regarding this position then every other heightened thinker in the fields of biology, philosophy, science, ethics etc…would have easily been able to come to a unanimous conclusion on what is just or unjust. THE SUPREME court -VERY LEARNED PEOPLE- saw that abortion wasn’t murder. So what you are saying is that all of these people are stupid, and feel it’s ok to murder ‘babies’. Give me a ginormous break.

 

[brumano]

How do you relate this to abortion? I imagine that you are taking this passage to say that we should obey the government unquestioningly, particularly in matters relating to abortion. But that fails twice:

1. If that argument were true, then it would have been sinful to help Jews during the holocaust. Clearly that is false, so clearly an “obey the government in all things whether you like it or not” reading is wrong.
2. Even when we are required to obey a law we don’t like (which can happen) this does not prevent us from trying to change the law.

Basically, an unjust law is no law and has no authority. If my king or whatever tells me to go slaughter a bunch of innocent children, that command has no authority behind it whatsoever and I am not bound to obey.

It’s similar to how the supreme court handles laws it strikes down, actually. The constitution is the law of the US. Any law which the court finds to be in conflict with it is not actually striken down in the sense that it was once law and the court says it is no longer law, but in the sense that the court says it was never law to begin with.

Likewise, any law which conflicts with the Eternal Law is simply not law in any real sense of the word (where “you might get punished for not following it” does not count as a real sense of the word), the opinions of our rulers non-withstanding.

Amazing! there’s still at least one catholic that understands what true american patriotism really is all about 1000% support for your post, if you ever want to run for president drop me an email.

 

[Regina_Love]

Romans 13:1-7

1 "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same;
4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience sake."
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

THE LAW OF GOD supercedes any law of Man. For all power, and authority come from God.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Right - while it was always a sin to have an abortion - it wasn’t always considered murder as evidenced in writings from popes and church doctors.

To the extent that this is true it does not matter, because once we began to understand the truth, the truth was followed and guarded consistently.

If there was an objective reality regarding this position…

There is an objective reality. It regards all positions.

then every other heightened thinker in the fields of biology, philosophy, science, ethics etc…would have easily been able to come to a unanimous conclusion on what is just or unjust.

What makes you think that all aspects of an objective reality would be obvious to all people?

THE SUPREME court -VERY LEARNED PEOPLE- saw that abortion wasn’t murder. So what you are saying is that all of these people are stupid, and feel it’s ok to murder ‘babies’. Give me a ginormous break.

Strangely, the SCOTUS did not actually say that it wasn’t murder. They said that they were unable to tell and so made the decision based on other things. Which is stupid - “we don’t know, this might be murder, but since we can’t tell for certain we’re gonna go ahead and ignore that question and decided based on how inconvenient it’d be to get rid of it.” Read the case. I’m not lying.

Furthermore, if your argument is based on the fact that 5/9 “very learned people” thought that it’s ok, you’re not realizing that there are lots and lots of very learned people that believe anything, and further that the number of people who support a position has no effect whatsoever on the logical tenability of that position.

I mean, I could shoot back at you that Catholic bishops, a group that have had as a whole more exposure to philosophy and theology than your average Joe and even than your average learned Joe, oppose abortion. I could then ask for you to give me a ginormous break because you persist in holding this ridiculous position contrary to what all these very learned people hold.

 

[Richca]

Romans 13:1-7

1 “Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same;
4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.
5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience sake.”
6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7** Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom**; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

“When they had brought them in and made them stand before the Sanhedrin, the high priest questioned them, “We gave you strict orders [did we not?] to stop teaching in that name. Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and want to bring this man’s blood upon us.” But Peter and the apostles said in reply, “We must obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:27-29)

Any human law that is contrary to the Divine law is illicit and no law at all and nobody can be forced against their conscience to obey it, period.

 

[mymamamary]

Ive read it. I agree that your logic is scary also. That’s what I say to people who don’t agree with me. You’re wrong and scary. Maybe I will become catholic. It seems pretty easy. Every single point, and any thing in contention is just explained away. I’ve posted ideas that some of the greatest minds in history have had trouble with on this forum, and NOT ONE CATHOLIC has even paused for thought. Not one catholic is EVER wrong about anything. I find that to be scary…and very telling.

Are you forgetting St. Thomas of Aquinas, He was probably the smartest man ever. Who are the greatest mind according to you and why?? Lets hear it…

 

[mymamamary]

Right - while it was always a sin to have an abortion - it wasn’t always considered murder as evidenced in writings from popes and church doctors. If there was an objective reality regarding this position then every other heightened thinker in the fields of biology, philosophy, science, ethics etc…would have easily been able to come to a unanimous conclusion on what is just or unjust. THE SUPREME court -VERY LEARNED PEOPLE- saw that abortion wasn’t murder. So what you are saying is that all of these people are stupid, and feel it’s ok to murder ‘babies’. Give me a ginormous break.

Show me the evidence to your claims, as people have given you evidence to yours. It doesn’t matter how learned or unlearned these folks are, evil is evil. The onus is on you to prove to us that Our Lord would never have had a problem with abortion and that We are stupid for believing so. You made the claim, the burden of proof therefore lies not with us because thats a logical fallacy. The burden lies with you.

 

[Alberti_Devoveo]

Are you forgetting St. Thomas of Aquinas, He was probably the smartest man ever. Who are the greatest mind according to you and why?? Lets hear it…

St Albert the Great. Because he taught St Thomas.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Smartest man ever? Hmmm, depends on your definition of “smartest”. IQ-probably da Vinci, who was a wonderfully innovative genius. Wisdom-Well, Aristotle was very wise. Aquinas as well. But then, we don’t know a lot about the wisest people of all-they’re wise enough to not care about fame!

Shakespeare has a claim to fame as “smartest”, in a different sense than other people.

Who knows.