The Legion Of Christ

[Javl]

March 14) – As sex abuse scandals rock the Vatican, the results of an investigation into a rich, ultra-conservative and secretive Roman Catholic order founded by a priest accused of pedophilia and incest are due to be filed in Rome tomorrow.

The sordid story of the Legion of Christ, whose late founder, the Rev. Marcial Maciel Degollado, was a close ally of Pope John Paul II before being forcibly retired by the Vatican in 2006, is a microcosm of the crisis currently enveloping the church.

At stake is whether Pope Benedict XVI will decide to take over the Legion and install new leaders from the outside or allow it to continue with its same hierarchy. Five bishops from five countries are expected to submit their reports about the Legion Monday.

It is actions like this that turns many against Holy Mother Church and hurts her. It gives her enemies, like Jack Chick, more ammunition to use against her. What surprises and hurts me is that John Paul II knew about this, and yet did nothing definite other than forcing Degollado to retire. The secular press is sure going to have a field day again with this one.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Abenadar]

It’d be nice if the news reported on sex offenders in proportion to how many kids they molest…Then the papers would be so inundated by stories coming out of the public school districts that the Church would hardly get a mention. But no, we can’t have that! We have to make the Church look like the bad guy, even though the problem is far worse in many other places.

 

[Javl]

It’d be nice if the news reported on sex offenders in proportion to how many kids they molest…Then the papers would be so inundated by stories coming out of the public school districts that the Church would hardly get a mention. But no, we can’t have that! We have to make the Church look like the bad guy, even though the problem is far worse in many other places.

I agree. But the Catholic Church is the secular world’s favorite “whipping boy”, and we keep helping it with all these scandals. It’s surprising that there still are so many converts entering the Church with all this bad press. You’d think they’d all become Protestants. But, I’m happy that the Holy Spirit is still there guiding these converts.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Rogerteder]

I dont see why it matters? What do the actions of a priest, bishop, etc have to do with believing or not believing. If you are convinced the Catholic faith is true then the actions of a person or many people shouldnt sway that. Maybe these people, who leave, never really believed in the first place.

 

[Abenadar]

… and we keep helping it with all these scandals.

But that’s exactly what I mean…YES, there are scandals in the Church among individual perverts, however, the same exact scandals are perpetrated elsewhere on a far larger scale with little to no media coverage.

If the media really were so objective and fair and balanced, they would spend nine tenths of their time reporting on scandals in public schools etc.

 

[damooster]

I never thought I’d stick up for the media, but there are over 1.6 billion Catholics in the world. The Catholic Church is the oldest and largest institution in the world, so when scandal strikes, of course people are going to write about it. When you lead from the front, you’re going to get hit first and hit often.

I don’t like it, but we should be focusing our frustration on our leadership. Gross and atrocious acts were committed by ordained men and our leadership ignored it. They moved priests around and they tried to pretend like nothing happened. I will always love the Church and will always have its back, but complaining that the media is paying too much attention to the situation is like getting mad at an eyewitness for yelling too loudly when he’s witnessing a robbery.

 

[thomas_jd]

The truth is the truth and should always be told. Occasionaly the media, when it suits their purposes, gets the story correct. The media normally is only interested in sales. Do not concern yourselves with anything but the truth.
It doesn’t seem , to me that is, that the legioneers will survive this latest probe.

 

[Javl]

What I am trying to get across is that with all these scandals it may scare some potential converts away, which in a way I can’t blame them. And though we who are thoroughly grounded in the faith do not waver, there are those who are weak in the faith that can add to the confusion and scandal by stories that may or not be true. This can add more fodder to the conflagration of scandal.

And, as I said, The Roman Catholic Church is the favorite whipping boy of the press and anti-Catholics ( like Jack Chick ), whether or not a greater scandal occurs in other churches or in secular society.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[pro_multis]

It’d be nice if the news reported on sex offenders in proportion to how many kids they molest…Then the papers would be so inundated by stories coming out of the public school districts that the Church would hardly get a mention. But no, we can’t have that! We have to make the Church look like the bad guy, even though the problem is far worse in many other places.

The Church is, and ought to be, held to a higher standard than the government schools.

Fact of the matter is that JPII was asleep at the switch for much of this. At least I hope he was, because the alternative is unthinkable.

 

[Like]

It is actions like this that turns many against Holy Mother Church and hurts her. It gives her enemies, like Jack Chick, more ammunition to use against her. What surprises and hurts me is that** John Paul II knew about this**, and yet did nothing definite other than forcing Degollado to retire. The secular press is sure going to have a field day again with this one.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I read the article & didn’t read that JP II knew about this, only that he was a friend. Please correct me if you read so.

 

[seekerz]

Not to make excuses for the Church, but in looking at these scandals we have to take a wider view: the moving around of child molesters seems to have been a common way of taking care of the “problem” in the time period when most of these allegations seem to have occurred. That was not behavior unique to Catholic administrators as many retired teachers/principals could attest to.

Only in recent decades has society come to the point where sexual abuse is even talked about in public and the victims treated as such rather than as instigators/abettors of the crime. We hear so much talk about the good old days when there was more decency and more family values, but the truth is also that the good old days were also a time of covering up (rather than addressing) just about anything that had to do with sex, including crimes.

That being said, the Church has to be held to a higher standard; it has no excuse for going with the flow of society rather than with its own moral standards.

 

[Javl]

I read the article & didn’t read that JP II knew about this, only that he was a friend. Please correct me if you read so.

Ther was more to the article that insinuated that he did. It would also surprise me, or astound me, if he didn’t. Rememeber the flap about the Jesuits? That was a well kept secret but he knew about it.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Ther was more to the article that insinuated that he did. It would also surprise me, or astound me, if he didn’t. Rememeber the flap about the Jesuits? That was a well kept secret but he knew about it.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[JohnT58]

It is actions like this that turns many against Holy Mother Church and hurts her. It gives her enemies, like Jack Chick, more ammunition to use against her. What surprises and hurts me is that John Paul II knew about this, and yet did nothing definite other than forcing Degollado to retire. The secular press is sure going to have a field day again with this one.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Not familiar with this the details of this story, but, seems to be one repeated across the world…How much JPII knew is anyones guess. He was in poor health for a long time before his death and I sometimes wonder how much in control over the entire institution of the Church he truly was, and how much was delegated to others.
But the inaction of other leaders, silence and cover-ups, was dismaying at the start, but downright infuriating now. Only this week Cardinal Brady was forced to admit he sat in on investigations and meetings where victims (still very young children at the time) were sworn to silence and secrecy. Now, he accepted postions of leadership, and all the while, over the decades as these scandals broke, he still remained silent over this, holding his hands up as to have no accountabilty. He could have said outright at the start, that the systems in place then were flawed, that his own Bishop at the time was at fault, that he was sorry and he would make it a point of his leadership not to have the same mistakes happen again…but no…the truth had to be dragged out kicking and screaming…
One starts to wonder if there is anyone among that generation of priests not tainted by this outragous abuse of power and trust.
You can probably guess I feel very angry and let down by the Church that I love.

 

[Malleus_01]

Not familiar with this the details of this story, but, seems to be one repeated across the world…How much JPII knew is anyones guess. He was in poor health for a long time before his death and I sometimes wonder how much in control over the entire institution of the Church he truly was, and how much was delegated to others.
But the inaction of other leaders, silence and cover-ups, was dismaying at the start, but downright infuriating now. Only this week Cardinal Brady was forced to admit he sat in on investigations and meetings where victims (still very young children at the time) were sworn to silence and secrecy. Now, he accepted postions of leadership, and all the while, over the decades as these scandals broke, he still remained silent over this, holding his hands up as to have no accountabilty. He could have said outright at the start, that the systems in place then were flawed, that his own Bishop at the time was at fault, that he was sorry and he would make it a point of his leadership not to have the same mistakes happen again…but no…the truth had to be dragged out kicking and screaming…
One starts to wonder if there is anyone among that generation of priests not tainted by this outragous abuse of power and trust.
You can probably guess I feel very angry and let down by the Church that I love.

Malleus: We all know that this scandal - despite that the press uses it to demonize the Church - was allowed to happen and culpability has to go all the way to the top as much as I hate to say it. . And we can all make excuses for why or attempt to minimize it - but even one failure by a prelate is one too many. The Church up to and including the Hierarchy has not been proactive enough to rid the Church of both bad Bishops and Priests. (and a few Cardinals as well) And rather than beat a dead horse - this applies not only to the “pedophilia” Scandal both in the US or the current one but to all the liberal issues as well. When we have Bishops and Priests either teaching what amounts to Heresy in some cases and in these cases scandals of blatent immorality then how much money has it cost the Church in the way of lawsuits including loss of Property to satisfy same and worse than that how many souls either directly or indirectly because of the notoriety and scandal and appearance of hypocrisy.

Yes it might hurt in the short term to have a purgeing. The Church may even contract in the short term. But I really believe that if as many of these individuals as possible were weeded out by (dare I say it) something equivalent to an unbloody modern form of an inquisition then the Church would be better off in the long term. Because by being HOLY the Church would gain a plethora of Converts and or Vocations which of course leads to a vibrant renewal and perhaps even a renaissance of Faith world wide.

I share your anger.

Pax

 

[JohnT58]

.

Yes it might hurt in the short term to have a purgeing. The Church may even contract in the short term. But I really believe that if as many of these individuals as possible were weeded out by (dare I say it) something equivalent to an unbloody modern form of an inquisition then the Church would be better off in the long term. Because by being HOLY the Church would gain a plethora of Converts and or Vocations which of course leads to a vibrant renewal and perhaps even a renaissance of Faith world wide.

I share your anger.

Pax

A purgin inquisition would rid our Church, and it is our Churc, not just the clergys, of this evil.
Its a moot point, but I can’t help but think that, if a bishop had the moral courage to deal with this head on, back in the 50’s 60’s 70’s or whenever, what would society’s reaction have been? I’m sure the outrage would have been no less, people would have been shocked and disappointed as now, but they would have seen moral leaderhip, the bar would have been raised on the expectations of the priesthood, and this rotting cancer would not have been allowed to spread silenty through the ranks of what I believe still remains a Holy Church, and this generation would not be left with the sins of the father, we have enough of our own to contend with. Let’s hope this can be a new begining, it just seems that when we, as a Church, try to turn over a new leaf, another case crops up again and we’re back to square one…

 

[Lormar]

JohnT58

There was a priest in the fifties, the founder of the Servants of the Paraclete, who thought these men were beyond rehabilitation. So much so, that he purchase an island to put them on where they could do the least amount of harm. Paul VI made him sell it. Long story short, his order became infected with the very same cancer he was trying to eradicate.

There are a few books you should read:

1. Sacrilege - Leon J.Podles
2. Lead Us Not Into Temptation - Jason Berry
3. Rite of Sodomy - Randy Engel (This book can be ordered from her webside by the same name)

The Church has always had this problem but it exploded after the Vatican Council. But don’t take my word for it, read the above books, and be prepared to be horrified.

 

[JohnT58]

JohnT58

There was a priest in the fifties, the founder of the Servants of the Paraclete, who thought these men were beyond rehabilitation. So much so, that he purchase an island to put them on where they could do the least amount of harm. Paul VI made him sell it. Long story short, his order became infected with the very same cancer he was trying to eradicate.

There are a few books you should read:

1. Sacrilege - Leon J.Podles
2. Lead Us Not Into Temptation - Jason Berry
3. Rite of Sodomy - Randy Engel (This book can be ordered from her webside by the same name)

The Church has always had this problem but it exploded after the Vatican Council. But don’t take my word for it, read the above books, and be prepared to be horrified.

I know this goes way back. I recall something similar, although I can’t remember the details, about missionaries during the colonisation of the new world, which could be the 17th century on I suppose. Its the respone of those in authority when confronted by this that is appalling. People here in Ireland are awaiting the Popes letter this weekend, but I wonder what, if anything, can be said to undo the harm done, and inspire confidence in our leadership for the future? All thats left to do is pray.

PS. I appreciate the sentiment, but, not wishing to sound intellectually blinkered, I don’t think I’ll be reading those books, I’ve heard enough stories, and read about enoguh stories, and saw enough in the media to be horrified aplenty.

 

[JohnT58]

Forgive me if I missed the point. Was your main contention that this is a post Vatican II malaise, and that it is an unintended and unforeseen side effect of the changes brougth in by the council? Iv’e heard mummurings of that before, but never really gave them much credence.

 

[Lormar]

Please, do yourself a favor, at least read the Jason Berry or Leon J. Podles book. The Randy Engel book might be too much. It’s over one thousand pages, heavily documented and footnoted. She begins at, well, the beginning and brings it up to the present day. Every Catholic owes it to him and/or herself not to stick their heads in the sand on this one. You must inform yourself as to how it was (wasn’t) handled.

Blaming it on the media is trying to shift the focus and blame.

After Vatican II they loosened a lot of restraints and put their trust in psychiatrists instead of God. Psychology was in. Prayer was out. Gratification was in. Mortification was out. We are living with the results.