The Legitim 12th Apostle

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Hello,

My name is Marcos da Silva and this is my first posting. After talking to a evangelical friend, he built Paul as the 12th apostle, who took the position left by Judas and he based his affirmation on the fact that when Matthias in Act 1,26 was chosen, the apostle were told by Jesus to only be together awaiting for the Holy Spirit, but before that they decided to define who the 12th would be by drawing numbers.
And my friend came up with the argument that the place of Judas was replaced by Paul whom in Colossians 1,1 states himself as “Paul an Apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God” and the Apostles’t be written on the Pillars in Revelation, the 12th will be Paul’s name.
Is this argument true? How does the Catholic Church sees it?

Thanks

Marcos da Silva
 
Key here is the distinction between an apostle of Christ and the twelve chosen apostles. The twelve apostles where the chief disciples of Jesus, but there are others outside of the Twelve who are referred to as apostles, in this sense they are just followers or missionaries of Christ.

You say your friend argues that Paul refers to himself as “an apostle of Christ Jesus”. But then look at Acts 14:14 which refers to “the apostles Barnabas and Paul”. Barnabas is not one of the Twelve: like Paul, he converted to Christianity and with Paul spread the Gospel of Christ. In Romans 16:7, Paul refers to “those outstanding apostles, Andronicus and Junias”, and in 1 Thessalonians Paul includes Timothy and Silas with himself as apostles. Being referred to as an apostle does not make someone automatically one of the Twelve. The replacement of the traitor Judas was Matthias, as is told by Scripture.
 
I agree with what Perfect has said. It does not, however, answer the question of who is the 12th apostle. 🙂

Was it Matthias, chosen by lot? Or Judas, a betrayer, but chosen by Christ himself?

Who’s name will be written in that reverence to Revelation 21:14?

“The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
 
The 11 Apostles drew lots while in the Upper Room and they elected Matthias to replace Judas’ position in the chosen Twelve. The Apostles were choosing between Joseph Justus (also known as Barsabbas) and Matthias, both were already Jesus’ disciples.

As Jesus instructed, St. Paul became the Apostle to the Gentiles.

St. Paul was the most “classically” trained of the Apostles. He was a Pharisee, trained by the Rabbi Gamaliel.
 
tiburciofl said:
Hello,

My name is Marcos da Silva and this is my first posting. After talking to a evangelical friend, he built Paul as the 12th apostle, who took the position left by Judas and he based his affirmation on the fact that when Matthias in Act 1,26 was chosen, the apostle were told by Jesus to only be together awaiting for the Holy Spirit, but before that they decided to define who the 12th would be by drawing numbers.
And my friend came up with the argument that the place of Judas was replaced by Paul whom in Colossians 1,1 states himself as “Paul an Apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God” and the Apostles’t be written on the Pillars in Revelation, the 12th will be Paul’s name.
Is this argument true? How does the Catholic Church sees it?

Thanks

Marcos da Silva
Click to expand...
Your friend may mistaking an apostle as a disciple, versus the chosen 12 Apostles. Matthias was chosen to replace Judas I. St Paul converted much later, and became the Apostle of the Gentiles, as some had stated. It may be good to research when the Apostle of the Gentiles description of Paul came about. Was it in the Bible or later given to Paul after his death and when?
 
usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans11.htm

Romans Chap 11: verse 13-18

St. Paul says:

"Now I am speaking to you Gentiles.

Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministry in order to make my race jealous and thus save some of them.

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

If the firstfruits are holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches.

If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you."

[11-15] The unbelief of the Jews has paved the way for the preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles and for their easier acceptance of it outside the context of Jewish culture. Through his mission to the Gentiles Paul also hopes to fill his fellow Jews with jealousy. Hence he hastens to fill the entire Mediterranean world with the gospel. Once all the Gentile nations have heard the gospel, Israel as a whole is expected to embrace it. This will be tantamount to resurrection of the dead, that is, the reappearance of Jesus Christ with all the believers at the end of time.

3 [16-24] Israel remains holy in the eyes of God and stands as a witness to the faith described in the Old Testament because of the firstfruits (or the first piece baked) (Romans 11:16), that is, the converted remnant, and the root that is holy, that is, the patriarchs (Romans 11:16). The Jews’ failure to believe in Christ is a warning to Gentile Christians to be on guard against any semblance of anti-Jewish arrogance, that is, failure to recognize their total dependence on divine grace.

4 [25-29] In God’s design, Israel’s unbelief is being used to grant the light of faith to the Gentiles. Meanwhile, Israel remains dear to God (cf Romans 9:13), still the object of special providence, the mystery of which will one day be revealed.

5 [30-32] Israel, together with the Gentiles who have been handed over to all manner of vices (Romans 1), has been delivered . . . to disobedience. The conclusion of Romans 11:32 repeats the thought of Romans 5:20, “Where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more.”
 
I am not aware of any defined teaching of the Church that addresses who are the legitimate 12 or who’s names will be written on the wall.

Scripture does tell us though that the original 12 were chosen by Jesus, this distinguishes them among the rest of Jesus’ disciples and gives witness to a hierarchy

We know Judas was lost as the “son of perdition/destruction” so that prophecy might be fulfilled, giving witness that within the hierarchy there will be grave sinners.

We know that Paul was chosen by the glorified Christ to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, giving witness that out of grave sinners some may be made saints.

We see in Peter’s role in calling for the replacement of Judas, his taking his appointed role as leader of The Church, giving witness to supremacy within the hierarchy.

Matthias’ election to replace Judas gives witness to apostolic succession.

My own personal opinion is that it will be Paul’s name written on the wall, because he was directly chosen by Christ, just as the original 12 were, but I really don’t think it makes a difference when it comes to matters of salvation.
 
tiburciofl said:
Hello,

My name is Marcos da Silva and this is my first posting. After talking to a evangelical friend, he built Paul as the 12th apostle, who took the position left by Judas and he based his affirmation on the fact that when Matthias in Act 1,26 was chosen, the apostle were told by Jesus to only be together awaiting for the Holy Spirit, but before that they decided to define who the 12th would be by drawing numbers.
And my friend came up with the argument that the place of Judas was replaced by Paul whom in Colossians 1,1 states himself as “Paul an Apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God” and the Apostles’t be written on the Pillars in Revelation, the 12th will be Paul’s name.
Is this argument true? How does the Catholic Church sees it?

Thanks

Marcos da Silva
Click to expand...
Many were elevated to Apostles after Pentecost, but the 12 were the elders. Notice in the First Council of Jerusalem that Paul was not part of the elders who decided on matters. Just presented and pleaded to them.

Mark and Luke also were Apostles
 
i understand your question and the answer i’m afraid is that we won’t know until we are fortunate to reach heaven and see.

but I think Perfect provides the best answer in the meantime.

God Bless.
 
Barbkw said:
usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans11.htm

Romans Chap 11: verse 13-18

St. Paul says:

"Now I am speaking to you Gentiles.

Inasmuch then as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I glory in my ministry in order to make my race jealous and thus save some of them.

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

If the firstfruits are holy, so is the whole batch of dough; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place and have come to share in the rich root of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches.

If you do boast, consider that you do not support the root; the root supports you."

5 [30-32] Israel, together with the Gentiles who have been handed over to all manner of vices (Romans 1), has been delivered . . . to disobedience. The conclusion of Romans 11:32 repeats the thought of Romans 5:20, “Where sin increased, grace overflowed all the more.”
Click to expand...
Thanks, Barb…It is stated as “apostle to the…” instead of “Apostle of the…” I get his to mean Paul was the apostle/disciple sent to evangelize the Gentiles, instead of being one of the original 12.
 
St. Paul was an Apostle by virtue of his direct commisioning by Christ.

However the first chapters of Acts clearly shows the qualification to be one of the Twelve. He must be an eyewitness to the Resurrection and accompanied the original Twelve when the Master was still with them (cf. Acts 1:21-22).

Paul, unfortunately, does not meet these criteria and he is disqualified. He cannot therefore be the 12th Apostle.
 
what a great experience for me as I posted for the first time. Thanks everyone!
 
=tiburciofl;7522356]Hello,
Click to expand...
My name is Marcos da Silva and this is my first posting. After talking to a evangelical friend, he built Paul as the 12th apostle, who took the position left by Judas and he based his affirmation on the fact that when Matthias in Act 1,26 was chosen, the apostle were told by Jesus to only be together awaiting for the Holy Spirit, but before that they decided to define who the 12th would be by drawing numbers.
And my friend came up with the argument that the place of Judas was replaced by Paul whom in Colossians 1,1 states himself as “Paul an Apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God” and the Apostles’t be written on the Pillars in Revelation, the 12th will be Paul’s name.
Is this argument true? How does the Catholic Church sees it?
Click to expand...
Thanks
Click to expand...
Marcos da Silva
Click to expand...
Paul was the 13th. Apostle. Although “last” to join the group, Paul is certainly the GREATEST Teacher.

As to Peter nd the Apostles choosing a replacement;

READ: Matt. 16:15–19, and Matt. 18: 18 carefully.

Strong’s on the TERMS BIND and Loose [A NON-CATHOLIC SITE]

In the nineteenth century, before the 1870 definition, two catechisms in use in Ireland explicitly denied the doctrine of Papal Infallibility. In answer to the question of whether the pope was infallible they suggested that such an idea was a Protestant invention made to discredit Roman Catholics. After the formal declaration of the Pope’s Infallibility by Pius IX, this question and answer were quietly dropped in subsequent editions, with no explanation for the change.

The source given for this statement is:

Salmon, George (1914) The Infallibility of the Church John Murray pp.26-27

OK, …BUT. …
Infallibility comes from God Himself, not the Magisterium, who only defined the issue.

**Matt. 16:15-19 and Matt. 18:18 ** Which extends the power of Authority to all the Apostles an subsequent leaders were GRANTED unlimited Power of Governance by Christ, personally!

To “Bind” and To “Loose” were terms of power of ***unlimited Governance ***when they were used by Jesus and would have been clearly understood as such by those to Jesus was both COMMANDING and teaching.

FROM Strong’s Concordnance: “Bind in Hebrew means” …3**256 **yacar yaw-sar’ a primitive root; to chastise, literally (with blows) or figuratively (with words); hence, to instruct:–bind, chasten, chastise, correct, instruct, punish, reform, reprove, sore, teach.

To “Loose” means: **5203 natash naw-tash’ a primitive root; properly, to pound, i.e. smite; by implication (as if beating out, and thus expanding) to disperse; also, to thrust off, down, out or upon (inclusively, **reject, let alone, permit, remit, etc.):–cast off, drawn, let fall, forsake, join (battle), leave (off), lie still, loose, spread (self) abroad, stretch out, suffer.

And in GREEK: Result of search for “Loose”:
142. airo ah’-ee-ro a primary root; to lift up; by implication, to take up or away; figuratively, to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind), specially, to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Hebraism (compare 5375) to expiate sin:–away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, upBy Jesus to peter and the Apostles

God Bless,
Pat
 
Doesn’t Paul refer to the other Apostles as “The Twelve” or is it only Luke. This would imply that there is a group of “12 Apostles” and Paul’s is not a member of that group.

Incidentally, the Holy Spirit was waiting for The Eleven to become whole again. That’s why Luke shows that the Holy Spirit comes immediately after he shows the Twelve becoming whole again with the inclusion of Mattias.

Also, I always consider Barsabbas to be the Get Smart of the Disciples of Jesus. I can see someone asking him, “Weren’t you one of Jesus’ Apostles”? He’d reply (insert your best Don Adams voice here), “Nope. Missed it by THIS MUCH”!😉
 
=NotWorthy;7524428]Doesn’t Paul refer to the other Apostles as “The Twelve” or is it only Luke. This would imply that there is a group of “12 Apostles” and Paul’s is not a member of that group.
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Incidentally, the Holy Spirit was waiting for The Eleven to become whole again. That’s why Luke shows that the Holy Spirit comes immediately after he shows the Twelve becoming whole again with the inclusion of Mattias.
Click to expand...
Also, I always consider Barsabbas to be the Get Smart of the Disciples of Jesus. I can see someone asking him, “Weren’t you one of Jesus’ Apostles”? He’d reply (insert your best Don Adams voice here), “Nope. Missed it by THIS MUCH”!😉
Click to expand...
I wonder how Don would say “GREAT REPLY?”

God Bless,
Pat
 
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