The Legitimacy of Today's Annulments.

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This is carried over from: “Grounds for Annulment?”

You are missing the point. Let me rephrase things in simpler terms and concepts:

Before the “divorce”, none of these couples ever went to their priest or consulted sacramental theology textbooks to find out if there was something lacking in their form and intention when they got married. All of a sudden, almost immediately after the divorce, EVERY couple wants to know if they were validly married. Why the change in their concern as to whether or not there was a valid marriage?
 
This is carried over from: “Grounds for Annulment?”

You are missing the point. Let me rephrase things in simpler terms and concepts:

Before the “divorce”, none of these couples ever went to their priest or consulted sacramental theology textbooks to find out if there was something lacking in their form and intention when they got married. All of a sudden, almost immediately after the divorce, EVERY couple wants to know if they were validly married. Why the change in their concern as to whether or not there was a valid marriage?
The question of whether or not the marriage is valid, is usually not raised, until one of the two spouses wants out of the marriage for some reason or another. But when finally, the question is raised, in most cases in the USA, the annulment is granted. Fr. Doherty quotes a Tribunal official as saying:
There is no marriage which, given a little time for investigation, we cannot declare invalid.
 
Fr. Doherty quotes a Tribunal official as saying: There is no marriage which, given a little time for investigation, we cannot declare invalid.
That actually undermines the Sacrament of Marriage. One could theoretically take that tribunal’s supposedly infinite list of impediments and apply it against an existing marriage which is in firm standing. So none of us are really married.
 
This is carried over from: “Grounds for Annulment?”

You are missing the point. Let me rephrase things in simpler terms and concepts:

Before the “divorce”, none of these couples ever went to their priest or consulted sacramental theology textbooks to find out if there was something lacking in their form and intention when they got married. All of a sudden, almost immediately after the divorce, EVERY couple wants to know if they were validly married. Why the change in their concern as to whether or not there was a valid marriage?
I have not read the entire preceding thread, and can only offer my empirical observations.

I cannot say I know any Catholic couples who got divorced and then sought annulment. Rather, among those couples I have known who divorced, when annulment has been sought, usually it has been sought by one half of the couple. (And not always by the party who initiated the divorce)

Maybe things are different where you live?

:twocents:
tee
 
I have not read the entire preceding thread, and can only offer my empirical observations.

I cannot say I know any Catholic couples who got divorced and then sought annulment. Rather, among those couples I have known who divorced, when annulment has been sought, usually it has been sought by one half of the couple. (And not always by the party who initiated the divorce)

Maybe things are different where you live?

:twocents:
tee
I think that the USA tribunals require that a couple get a civil divorce before proceeding with the Church annulment process. This seems to me to be bad policy because there is no guarantee that the marriage would be declared annulled.
 
This whole subject is one of those that will become a quagmire. It is a large and complicated issue with few easy answers.

First I will say that I believe that annullments may well be granted too easily today. On the other hand in times past they were surely granted too stingily and people were forced to live in abusive, even life threatening situations. It is a difficult question, where and how to draw the line. (Of course I’m sure there are those who would have no trouble drawing a line.)

Secondly is the issue of proper preparation, both in our faith and in our preparations for marriage. If these things are not attended to properly then, of course, there will be more marriages performed containing flaws. This then is not the problem of the tribunals but a larger problem within the faith.

Thirdly, I believe that there ar few people on this site who are properly and adequately knowledgable to discuss this topic properly (Myself included.) given the intricacies of it.

*I will speak to my own experience now since I did recieve an annullment this year.
The process is not as light and easy as some might suppose. The process was a spiritually difficult one for a number of reasons. Most importantly is the questionaire. If you think preparation for confession is difficult, “you ain’t seen nothin”.

I struggled mightily with the questionaire. It contained 40 questions that were quite thorough. The answers had to be honest, full. and fair both to me and to my former spouse. I did not want to blame her for the break-up but had to acknowledge that both of us had problems.

The longer I pondered over the questions, and the more sad memories were dredged up, the more I came to realize how immature and poorly formed I was at the time of my first marriage. My former wife was also poorly formed spiritually. Now some people might blow through the questions and write what they think the tribunal wants to hear, but it is they who are abusing the process, and not the tribunal.

When I began the process I was seriously concerned whether I was doing the right thing and whether I would be able to validly obtain an annulment. However by the time I was finished with the questionaire I was confident that I had been both honest and forthright, and that I knew myself better. Also I believe I am a better Christian for the process.
Once the paperwork was submitted, It was up to the Holy Spirit.*

For myself, I cannot speak to whether the annulment system as currently designed is well administered, and I wonder how many here really are.
However, in my case the process provided an opportunity to start over in my spiritual life. To return to the sacraments after about 25
years and to have my current marriage blessed in the Church.

I honestly cannot believe that the people applying for annulment, and answering the questions I had to answer, are being deliberately dishonest. If they care enough about their souls to try for an annulment, they surely aren’t going to lie on the application. And as far as the tribunals go I believe that most are doing the best they can to administer the system diligently and properly.
Remember the tribunals are not marriage councilers. They do not become involved until after the marriage has already ended in civil divorce.

Anyway, That’s my 2 dollars worth

James
 
Before the “divorce”, none of these couples ever went to their priest or consulted sacramental theology textbooks to find out if there was something lacking in their form and intention when they got married.
None?

That is exactly what the OP did-- sought consultation prior to divorce.
All of a sudden, almost immediately after the divorce, EVERY couple wants to know if they were validly married. Why the change in their concern as to whether or not there was a valid marriage?
Every?

There are many Catholic who *never *seek a tribunal investigation of their marriage and never seek to contract another marriage. There are many Catholics who believe their first marriage to be valid and choose never to pursue a case.

However, I believe those that do begin a tribunal investigation are prudent. They wish to know with certainty if their marriage is valid so they know if they are free to date anyone else or if they should refrain from any new relationship at all.

Also, there are so many things that come out during a divorce that the innocent spouse may not have known before-- leading them to the conclusion their marriage was invalid.

I personally know people who only found out during or after the divorce about things-- and other people knew but never said anything! “oh, yeah… we knew X never wanted children… we thought you knew…” or “we knew X had a little pre-wedding fling with Y but we thought he’d settle down once he walked down the aisle.” Crazy? Yes-- but it happens every day.

Honestly-- the tribunal does a great service to those who find themselves in an invalid marriage.
 
This is carried over from: “Grounds for Annulment?”

You are missing the point. Let me rephrase things in simpler terms and concepts:

Before the “divorce”, none of these couples ever went to their priest or consulted sacramental theology textbooks to find out if there was something lacking in their form and intention when they got married. All of a sudden, almost immediately after the divorce, EVERY couple wants to know if they were validly married. Why the change in their concern as to whether or not there was a valid marriage?
the tribunal will not even look at a marriage until it has irretrievably broken down, so there is not much point in questioning validity until that point. If a couple becomes aware of a condition that rendered their marriage potentially invalid, and remedies it, the marriage is valid (for instance, becomes aware that their previous attitude toward ABC was wrong and ceases contracepting).
 
Yes, Annie makes a great point which I thought about adding but did not-- thanks Annie.

If one person becomes aware of a defect, they can remedy it themselves:

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P46.HTM
So then what does one do if the other partner refuses to rectify. Such as in the OP on the other thread where the other partner refuses to discontinue ABC?

James
 
That actually undermines the Sacrament of Marriage. One could theoretically take that tribunal’s supposedly infinite list of impediments and apply it against an existing marriage which is in firm standing. So none of us are really married.
That is what bothers me about the annulment process in the Catholic Church. If the Holy Spirit did not touch or sanctify a great number of Catholic marriages which were performed in a Catholic Church, whereas the Holy Spirit is present and sanctifies just about all of the marriages performed in an Eastern Orthodox Church, what does that say about the strength of the Catholic sacraments as contrasted to the Sacreaments of the Eastern Orthodox Church?
 
whereas the Holy Spirit is present and sanctifies just about all of the marriages performed in an Eastern Orthodox Church, what does that say about the strength of the Catholic sacraments as contrasted to the Sacreaments of the Eastern Orthodox Church?
You do not know this to be a fact at all. On what do you base this statement?
 
So then what does one do if the other partner refuses to rectify. Such as in the OP on the other thread where the other partner refuses to discontinue ABC?

James
Convalidation should be used whenever possible to remedy an invalid marriage. It is not possible in all cases-- such as this one.

In the case of this particular marriage in question, if he divorces he could then remain single or ask that his marriage be investigated to confirm or refute his suspicion it is invalid. It may be found valid, or it may not-- we don’t have all the facts so we cannot say.
 
First I will say that I believe that annullments may well be granted too easily today. On the other hand in times past they were surely granted too stingily and people were forced to live in abusive, even life threatening situations. It is a difficult question, where and how to draw the line. (Of course I’m sure there are those who would have no trouble drawing a line.)
 
Fr. Doherty quotes a Tribunal official as saying:
There is no marriage which, given a little time for investigation, we cannot declare invalid.
How sad.

A priest I know who works in marriage prep has as his goal: “No annulable marriages.” —KCT
 
How sad.

A priest I know who works in marriage prep has as his goal: “No annulable marriages.” —KCT
And some priests couldn’t care less.

This week we are celebrating the wedding of a couple who’ve been living common-law for years. They had no intention of marrying until he got elected to an officer’s position in the Knights of Columbus. Then all hell broke loose and some members stopped going to the meetings. All of a sudden it becomes important to this couple to marry. I ask you, if they divorce in 5 or 6 years, do you think that the tribunal wouldn’t see a problem with the consent in this case?
 
You do not know this to be a fact at all. On what do you base this statement?
I base this on the statement of Father Doherty and as well on the article which appeared in the Catholic magazine: US Catholic: Please see the US Catholic , April 1997 issue, p. 6, “Annullments…” and you can read for yourself that of all those who apply for an annulment in the St. Paul Minneapolis area, 97% are approved, and declared invalid.
That would be a rejection rate of about 3%.
In other words, these marriages have not been Sacramentally sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
 
“Annullments…” and you can read for yourself that of all those who apply for an annulment in the St. Paul Minneapolis area, 97% are approved, and declared invalid.
That would be a rejection rate of about 3%.
In other words, these marriages have not been Sacramentally sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
This makes me so sad. What is happening?
 
And some priests couldn’t care less.

This week we are celebrating the wedding of a couple who’ve been living common-law for years. They had no intention of marrying until he got elected to an officer’s position in the Knights of Columbus. Then all hell broke loose and some members stopped going to the meetings. All of a sudden it becomes important to this couple to marry. I ask you, if they divorce in 5 or 6 years, do you think that the tribunal wouldn’t see a problem with the consent in this case?
Well, it looks to me like by the introduction of soft psychological factors and other frivolous reasons as grounds for annulments, we have a situation where:many people believe that virtually any failed marriage can be annulled on the basis of incapacity and immaturity.
 
This makes me so sad. What is happening?
To see what has been happening, you may want to look at the article which appeared in the Catholic journal, Homiletic and Pastoral Review of January 2005, by Sheryl Temaat, entitled: “Judging invalidity the American way.” She contends that the Catholic annulment process has promoted the idea that Catholics should be able to divorce and remarry like anyone else in the USA. See:
marysadvocates.org/HomileticJan05.html
 
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