The Legitimacy of Today's Annulments.

[marci]

It comes down to this, the issues facing married couples have not changed for millenia. Infedelity, abuse, neglect, selfishness, these have always been with us, and will be until the end. It is our attitude toward the institution of marriage that has changed. From the institution of “no fault” divorce in secular society, to the findings of nullity of so many previously thought sacramental marriages, it is we who have redifined what marriage is. And it is we who will answer for it.

 

[bobzills]

This, as I see it, is the problem. We are treading on dangerous ground if this is the road we are going down. These examples of what constitues a declaration of nullity are typical situations which occur at one time or another in almost all marriages.

This line of thinking, in my opinion, is a direct assult on the sacrament of matrimony.

This is what makes sense to me and is how I see it. The introduction of these soft psycholgoical factors, which were not admitted in the past, lead some people to conclude that in effect, the annulment process in the USA has been turned into something which is not too different from divorce as it is recognised and exists in other religious organisations.

 

[Phemie]

The difference is that the annulment process uses problems
which will arise in any marriage and blows them way out of proportion and asserts that these issues
justify the claim that there was never any sacramental marriage in the first place. It is a violation of the
spirit of the law against divorce because these issues come up in any marriage and accordingly, just
about anyone can get an annulment and resulting declaration that the family unit is broken.
Please see:
marysadvocates.org/wrennreasons.html

How does a decree of nullity declare that the family unit is broken more than a divorce decree does?? The family unit is no less broken when there is a divorce without annulment than it is when there is an annulment. When the family lives in separate houses, the family unit is broken regardless of the validity of the marriage.

 

[1ke]

As I understand it, a decree of nullity had been granted since he was able to remarry in the Catholic Church.

That is incorrect. A decree of nullity cannot be issued until after the second court rules. Only one court had ruled, therefore no nullity decree was ever issued.

The husband’s second marriage was a civil marriage, not within the Catholic Church.

She didn’t accept that decree and appealed it to the Rota as was her right to do.

Not quite. The Rota was chosen as the court of second instance.

Typically, another US tribunal would be the court of second instance.

Then, if the the two courts disagreed, the “appeal” would go to the Rota for a final decision.

There is still another level to which he could now appeal.

No there isn’t.

Again, she chose the Rota as her court of second instance.

Therefore, there is no higher level to which to “appeal.”

 

[Michael_Saint]

None?

However, I believe those that do begin a tribunal investigation are prudent. They wish to know with certainty if their marriage is valid so they know if they are free to date anyone else or if they should refrain from any new relationship at all.

And why, may I ask, when they were still in their “marriages” did they never wonder if they were ever validly married to begin with and seek to find out? Why only after they are interested in “dating” someone new after a breakup?\

Be patient, 1ke, this is leading somewhere.

 

[Michael_Saint]

Yes, Annie makes a great point which I thought about adding but did not-- thanks Annie.

If one person becomes aware of a defect, they can remedy it themselves:

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P46.HTM

Would that 99 percent of people didn’t wait until they have broken up their “marriage” and want to “date” someone new that they begin to look at possible “defects”.

 

[Michael_Saint]

the Catholic magazine: US Catholic: Please see the US Catholic , April 1997 issue, p. 6, “Annullments…” and you can read for yourself that of all those who apply for an annulment in the St. Paul Minneapolis area, 97% are approved, and declared invalid.
That would be a rejection rate of about 3%.
In other words, these marriages have not been Sacramentally sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

In other words, in St. Paul Minneapolis, the majority of so-called “married couples” are probably fornicating, practically speaking. That is the logical consequences of these statistics.

Like I say, with the way annulments are granted these days, there are either a lot of so-called “married people” committing adultery, or a lot of so-called married people engaging in fornication.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

What of those of us who have received a decree of nullity who have never chosen, either ‘during the marriage’ or afterward, to seek ‘another marriage?’

 

[Michael_Saint]

The priest being unaware of an impediment does not mean an impediment does not exist

You mean to tell me that there have been hundreds of priests out there who married thousands of American couples who were not aware of impediments over the last 40 years?

 

[Phemie]

You mean to tell me that there have been hundreds of priests out there who married thousands of American couples who were not aware of impediments over the last 40 years?

When a priest saw the couple for the initial paperwork and then next saw them at the door of the church the day of the wedding how is he supposed to determine whether or not there are impediments? The priest who married us never even met my husband until he shook his hand before we walked up the aisle. He knew nothing about him, just like the priest who saw my husband never met me and didn’t know anything about me.

 

[Ray_Scheel]

In other words, in St. Paul Minneapolis, the majority of so-called “married couples” are probably fornicating, practically speaking. That is the logical consequences of these statistics.

No, it is not, and several other people have pointed out the logical flaws in trying to draw that conclusion, including some points I made back up in post #56.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

You mean to tell me that there have been hundreds of priests out there who married thousands of American couples who were not aware of impediments over the last 40 years?

In a word. . .yes.

Priests are not infallible.

And neither are people. Considering the huge upheaval in society which has severely impacted the Church as well (it took HOW long for Father X in Kokomo, Indiana to be able to celebrate the 1962 Latin Mass which he celebrated last in 1968 or so, even though many clergy–including our blessed Benedict XVI–obviously KNEW that the Mass had NEVER BEEN ABROGATED), it is hardly surprising that a large proportion of priests may have (with the best of intentions) ‘missed’ a ‘rise’ in impediments that was societally based, or that many people, with all due care, may have ‘missed’ it as well.

In the last 10 years or so, homosexuality has gone from being an accepted ‘sin’ even by many more ‘secular’ people to being a “GIFT OF GOD” accepted even by many RELIGIOUS people.

 

[Michael_Saint]

It seems to me that the tribunals are a poor place to pick on. It attacks the problem at the wrong end.

I think it should be attacked at BOTH ends.

 

[bobzills]

In a word. . .yes.

Priests are not infallible.

And neither are people. Considering the huge upheaval in society which has severely impacted the Church as well (it took HOW long for Father X in Kokomo, Indiana to be able to celebrate the 1962 Latin Mass which he celebrated last in 1968 or so, even though many clergy–including our blessed Benedict XVI–obviously KNEW that the Mass had NEVER BEEN ABROGATED), it is hardly surprising that a large proportion of priests may have (with the best of intentions) ‘missed’ a ‘rise’ in impediments that was societally based, or that many people, with all due care, may have ‘missed’ it as well.

In the last 10 years or so, homosexuality has gone from being an accepted ‘sin’ even by many more ‘secular’ people to being a “GIFT OF GOD” accepted even by many RELIGIOUS people.

Why has this annulment situation so impacted the Catholic people and not others? Why is there such a large increase in the number of Catholic annulments and not a corresponinding increase in the number of divorces in society at large? Isn’t it because the American tribunals are now allowing very minor reasons for granting the annulments. In fact, we have Father Doherty who quotes a Tribunal official as saying:
There is no marriage which, given a little time for investigation, we cannot declare invalid.

 

[Michael_Saint]

Let me ask another question (loaded, though it may be):

If there are so many invalid marriages, why aren’t bishops encouraging couples to take steps to ensure that there were no impediments, and that they are indeed validly married? Seems like if a Shepherd of Souls knows his Sheep may be in invalid marriages, he would want to bring this to their attention, and do what he can to correct the problem.

 

[marci]

I think it should be attacked at BOTH ends.

Agreed. The benefit of the doubt should always be given to the validity of the marriage. Instead, I fear that once irreconcilability of the marriage is assertained through the civil divorce, there is a “rubber stamp” mentality give to the declaration of nullity. The petitioner is given the benefit of the doubt and it is up to the respondant to prove the marriage was valid. Although, as I mentioned earlier, it is my guess that very few people fight the process as they too wish to be free to remarry, or have their 2nd marriages blessed.

The thing is, as someone else mentioned, the priests officiating the marriages are not infallible. Well, neither are the tribunals, so all the more reason why this issue should be approached with great humility and in fear of God, for He is not mocked.

 

[Michael_Saint]

Gee whiz, I am honestly legitimately concerned that my parents, supposedly “married” in 1970 and together for the past 37 years, just may after all NOT be married, and have been fornicating all this time, and that I am a bastard.

Starting to wonder if my aunts and cousins aren’t all invalidly “married” too.

The thing is, I am pretty darn sure that some of the “impediments” that other marriages were declared invalid because of were just as true about my parents when they got married.

 

[Phemie]

Let me ask another question (loaded, though it may be):

If there are so many invalid marriages, why aren’t bishops encouraging couples to take steps to ensure that there were no impediments, and that they are indeed validly married? Seems like if a Shepherd of Souls knows his Sheep may be in invalid marriages, he would want to bring this to their attention, and do what he can to correct the problem.

People have changed drastically in a generation. I see it in my children and their friends, who although they are far more worldly than we were at their ages, are much less mature. Adolescence now lasts until the almost the early 30s. We left school ready to be adults, they don’t. I think the Church & the Tribunal recognize those changes although many don’t wish them to.

 

[marci]

The thing is, I am pretty darn sure that some of the “impediments” that other marriages were declared invalid because of were just as true about my parents when they got married.

As is the case with millions of other couples. I believe the issue has become more about the situation “after” the marriage then what the situation was “at the time”.

It’s kind of like the scientific hypothesis that wants the theory to be true and then looks for the indicators to make it true. (Some would say global warming meets this criteria). The couple wants the ability to remarry, they must first get a declaration of nullity, and then proceed to look for the “indicators” to prove the point. Using this standard, and the criteria for nullity, it becomes hard to find ANY marriage valid. So then validity becomes more about preception and individual perspective then truth.

 

[bobzills]

People have changed drastically in a generation.

Do you mean people here or Catholic people. It looks to me like this divorce and annulment thing has hit Catholic people but not anybody else.