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Michael_Saint
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This pretty much sums up my opinion on the whole thing. That is the point I have been driving towards in this thread, basically proving this very point.It’s kind of like the scientific hypothesis that wants the theory to be true and then looks for the indicators to make it true. (Some would say global warming meets this criteria). The couple wants the ability to remarry, they must first get a declaration of nullity, and then proceed to look for the “indicators” to prove the point. Using this standard, and the criteria for nullity, it becomes hard to find ANY marriage valid. So then validity becomes more about preception and individual perspective then truth.
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Michael_Saint
Guest
Gee whiz, if 20 % of CATHOLICS aren’t really married, can you imagine how high the number is in non-Catholic “marriages”!That’s not an incredibly high number, less than 20%.
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Michael_Saint
Guest
That’s a pretty scary thing for the Church to do if my parents, not to mention many couples from their generation, are not validly married. That’s a big problem.Second, the church views all marriages as valid unless otherwise proved null. .
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Michael_Saint
Guest
This question got sluffed off earlier. I am re-asking it:
And why, may I ask, when they “divorced” couples] were still in their “marriages” did they never wonder if they were ever validly married to begin with and seek to find out? Why only after they are interested in “dating” someone new after a breakup?
And why, may I ask, when they “divorced” couples] were still in their “marriages” did they never wonder if they were ever validly married to begin with and seek to find out? Why only after they are interested in “dating” someone new after a breakup?
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Phemie
Guest
Because they had no reason to doubt the validity of their marriage while everything was going well? Because they found out later that something about their situation might have rendered their marriage invalid? Because they were advised by their pastor to petition for a decree of nullity on the off chance that they could legitimize the relationship they are now in?This question got sluffed off earlier. I am re-asking it:
And why, may I ask, when they “divorced” couples] were still in their “marriages” did they never wonder if they were ever validly married to begin with and seek to find out? Why only after they are interested in “dating” someone new after a breakup?
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Michael_Saint
Guest
Check out this secular guy’s boasts. I’m going to this guy if I ever get married and it doesn’t “work out”.
divorcehelp.net/annulment.html
ANNULMENT: REMARRY WITHIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH NATIONAL $149 DIVORCE & BANKRUPTCY CENTER
File For Annulment in Only 24 Hours for Just $149! You Make the Decisions - We Do the Paperwork Annulment & Divorce Specialist; When It Has To Be Done Right the 1st Time! Now In Our 10th Year ! Annulment- $149 Annulment; With or Without Children or Property;
FAQ’s The Basics of Catholic Annulment:
The prevailing attitude among Tribunal members seems to be that almost anyone who is divorced is likely to be judged as having sufficient grounds to successfully petition for an annulment.
Tribunals are not interested in determining blame or punishing the “guilty”. Using the prevailing logic above, the fact that one of the spouses is ‘guilty’ of some act that destroyed the marriage may actually support an annulment. For example, if one of the spouses commits adultery, then the adultery is simply the logical fruit ion of the seeds of destruction that kept the marriage from being a sacrament in the first place.
80% of all Catholic annulment granted in the United States are based on the “new” psychological grounds. The “New Code” formally accepts psychological grounds for annulment. Cannon #1095 declares the following are incapable of contracting marriage: those who lack sufficient use of reason ; those who lack judgmental discretion concerning the matrimonial rights and duties to me mutually handed over and accepted; those who, due to a serious psychic anomaly, cannot assume the essential obligations of matrimony. Codifying the “lack of due discretion and lack of due competence” ushered in a new era in Canon Law and gave the Tribunal the basis necessary to grant an annulment of almost any marriage that is dissolved by a civil divorce decree.
Most importantly, the Church’s position on annulment is rooted in its new understanding of what constitutes a sacramental marriage. It is no longer assumed that a person who can intellectually understand the concept of marriage can necessarily give the valid consent necessary to create a sacramental marriage. The ability to both grasp and assume the real obligations of a mature lifelong commitment are now considered a prerequisite to valid matrimonial consent leading to a sacramental marriage.
Psychological grounds for annulment?
The following real world example will help to better illustrate the revolutionary import of the psychological grounds as the basis for annulment.
Example. A 17 year old boy is ‘encouraged’ by his parents to ‘do the right thing’ and marry his pregnant girlfriend. Applying the psychological grounds for annulment (and common sense) it is not hard to make the case that the boy was immature, felt pressured by his family (and the girl’s family) to do the right thing, and likely could not have fully appreciated the obligations of marriage and therefore lacked the necessary due discretion required at the time of the marriage to form a sacramental marriage.
A spouse’s extramarital affair(s), trouble holding a job, financial irresponsibility, refusal to care for the home and/or children, dependence on parents, reliance on peer approval, alcohol or drug use, run ins with the law, etc. serve to demonstrate that the spouse exhibits an antisocial personality which would prevent him/her from fully understanding or carrying out the obligations of a lifelong relationship and therefore evidence that the spouse lacked the due competence required to form a sacramental marriage.
Nullity of a marriage contains the following passage: “Many people believe that virtually any failed marriage can be annulled on the basis of incapacity and immaturity. It is not all that difficult to prove that someone was immature at the time of the marriage or did not fully understand all the obligations and developments involved in a lifelong marriage.”
Following the changes in 1970, diocesan Tribunals began to accept proof of psychological problems after the marriage as proof that nullifying conditions existed at the time of the marriage warranting an annulment.
IN SHORT - We Help Our Customers Solve Their Own Legal Problems Without The Expense of Hiring A Lawyer.
Making the Divorce & Annulment process easier is our commitment to the public.
divorcehelp.net/annulment.html
ANNULMENT: REMARRY WITHIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH NATIONAL $149 DIVORCE & BANKRUPTCY CENTER
File For Annulment in Only 24 Hours for Just $149! You Make the Decisions - We Do the Paperwork Annulment & Divorce Specialist; When It Has To Be Done Right the 1st Time! Now In Our 10th Year ! Annulment- $149 Annulment; With or Without Children or Property;
FAQ’s The Basics of Catholic Annulment:
The prevailing attitude among Tribunal members seems to be that almost anyone who is divorced is likely to be judged as having sufficient grounds to successfully petition for an annulment.
Tribunals are not interested in determining blame or punishing the “guilty”. Using the prevailing logic above, the fact that one of the spouses is ‘guilty’ of some act that destroyed the marriage may actually support an annulment. For example, if one of the spouses commits adultery, then the adultery is simply the logical fruit ion of the seeds of destruction that kept the marriage from being a sacrament in the first place.
80% of all Catholic annulment granted in the United States are based on the “new” psychological grounds. The “New Code” formally accepts psychological grounds for annulment. Cannon #1095 declares the following are incapable of contracting marriage: those who lack sufficient use of reason ; those who lack judgmental discretion concerning the matrimonial rights and duties to me mutually handed over and accepted; those who, due to a serious psychic anomaly, cannot assume the essential obligations of matrimony. Codifying the “lack of due discretion and lack of due competence” ushered in a new era in Canon Law and gave the Tribunal the basis necessary to grant an annulment of almost any marriage that is dissolved by a civil divorce decree.
Most importantly, the Church’s position on annulment is rooted in its new understanding of what constitutes a sacramental marriage. It is no longer assumed that a person who can intellectually understand the concept of marriage can necessarily give the valid consent necessary to create a sacramental marriage. The ability to both grasp and assume the real obligations of a mature lifelong commitment are now considered a prerequisite to valid matrimonial consent leading to a sacramental marriage.
Psychological grounds for annulment?
The following real world example will help to better illustrate the revolutionary import of the psychological grounds as the basis for annulment.
Example. A 17 year old boy is ‘encouraged’ by his parents to ‘do the right thing’ and marry his pregnant girlfriend. Applying the psychological grounds for annulment (and common sense) it is not hard to make the case that the boy was immature, felt pressured by his family (and the girl’s family) to do the right thing, and likely could not have fully appreciated the obligations of marriage and therefore lacked the necessary due discretion required at the time of the marriage to form a sacramental marriage.
A spouse’s extramarital affair(s), trouble holding a job, financial irresponsibility, refusal to care for the home and/or children, dependence on parents, reliance on peer approval, alcohol or drug use, run ins with the law, etc. serve to demonstrate that the spouse exhibits an antisocial personality which would prevent him/her from fully understanding or carrying out the obligations of a lifelong relationship and therefore evidence that the spouse lacked the due competence required to form a sacramental marriage.
Nullity of a marriage contains the following passage: “Many people believe that virtually any failed marriage can be annulled on the basis of incapacity and immaturity. It is not all that difficult to prove that someone was immature at the time of the marriage or did not fully understand all the obligations and developments involved in a lifelong marriage.”
Following the changes in 1970, diocesan Tribunals began to accept proof of psychological problems after the marriage as proof that nullifying conditions existed at the time of the marriage warranting an annulment.
IN SHORT - We Help Our Customers Solve Their Own Legal Problems Without The Expense of Hiring A Lawyer.
Making the Divorce & Annulment process easier is our commitment to the public.
M
Michael_Saint
Guest
Answer 1 fails to address the question: why only AFTER they want to start “seeing someone new” are they concerned about validity? Why not when they were experiencing trouble in the marriage did they not inquire of the priest to maybe see if it was because there was no real sacramental marriage in the first place, and that this lack of grace was in large part the cause of the trouble?Because they had no reason to doubt the validity of their marriage while everything was going well? Because they found out later that something about their situation might have rendered their marriage invalid? Because they were advised by their pastor to petition for a decree of nullity on the off chance that they could legitimize the relationship they are now in?
Answer 2 fails to address the question again: why only AFTER they want to start “seeing someone new” do they even begin the process that will help them find out all these things that might invalidate the marriage that they were unaware of before?
Answer 3 once again presumes the priest is trying to get someone to seek an annulment because they are already “seeing someone new”.
The question remains: Why is it only after a marriage breaks down and a person wants to “see someone new” are they concerned about whether or not their marriage was sacramental? Why not when they first started having trouble in the marriage? Why not when they were beginning to go to marriage counseling? Why not when the couple first brought up the possibility of divorce? Why only after they want to start “seeing someone new” and “marry another” are they concerned with whether or not their marriage was “legitimate”?
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1ke
Guest
I already answered it.question got sluffed off earlier. I am re-asking it:
This assumption is not based in fact.And why, may I ask, when they “divorced” couples] were still in their “marriages” did they never wonder if they were ever validly married to begin with
Certainly many people do begin to wonder after information previously not known to them is made known. Others know with certainty-- for example those who lack canonical form.
As I already stated, those who suspect or know their marriage is invalid have a remedy-- convalidation. Oh, and let me add that lots and lots of people DO remedy their invalid situation through convalidation. Tons of them.and seek to find out?
It is only if they are unable to remedy their situation because one spouse is unwilling that the tribunal would review the case if asked.
If it’s invalid, it’s invalid. If both spouses are willing it can be made valid (in most cases, not all). If one of the two is not willing, it cannot be made valid.
The tribunal doesn’t make the marriage invalid, it only declares what already exists.
This assumption is not based in any fact.Why only after they are interested in “dating” someone new after a breakup?
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Phemie
Guest
Because they don’t need an annulment unless they want to date someone else. Why go through such an invasive process if you don’t need to?Answer 1 fails to address the question: why only AFTER they want to start “seeing someone new” are they concerned about validity? Why not when they were experiencing trouble in the marriage did they not inquire of the priest to maybe see if it was because there was no real sacramental marriage in the first place, and that this lack of grace was in large part the cause of the trouble?
Answer 2 fails to address the question again: why only AFTER they want to start “seeing someone new” do they even begin the process that will help them find out all these things that might invalidate the marriage that they were unaware of before?
Answer 3 once again presumes the priest is trying to get someone to seek an annulment because they are already “seeing someone new”.
The question remains: Why is it only after a marriage breaks down and a person wants to “see someone new” are they concerned about whether or not their marriage was sacramental? Why not when they first started having trouble in the marriage? Why not when they were beginning to go to marriage counseling? Why not when the couple first brought up the possibility of divorce? Why only after they want to start “seeing someone new” and “marry another” are they concerned with whether or not their marriage was “legitimate”?
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1ke
Guest
Actually, I know several people who did go through the nullity process without any plans to date anyone else.Because they don’t need an annulment unless they want to date someone else. Why go through such an invasive process if you don’t need to?
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Phemie
Guest
There are obviously exceptions. I know a few couples who’ve gone through the process. I know a much greater number who didn’t bother and went to get married at the court house or in another church because they either couldn’t face the process or didn’t care whether they were married in the Catholic church.Actually, I know several people who did go through the nullity process without any plans to date anyone else.
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bobzills
Guest
Given this attitude of the Tribunal members, then what does that say about the integrity of the post-Vatican II annulment process?The prevailing attitude among Tribunal members seems to be that almost anyone who is divorced is likely to be judged as having sufficient grounds to successfully petition for an annulment.
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bobzills
Guest
Again, if virtually any failed marriage can be annulled, then doesn’t that in itself indicate that the Catholic annulment process is pretty close to being almost the same thing as what other religious organisations might call a justifiable divorce?Nullity of a marriage contains the following passage: “Many people believe that virtually any failed marriage can be annulled on the basis of incapacity and immaturity. It is not all that difficult to prove that someone was immature at the time of the marriage or did not fully understand all the obligations and developments involved in a lifelong marriage.”
Following the changes in 1970, diocesan Tribunals began to accept proof of psychological problems after the marriage as proof that nullifying conditions existed at the time of the marriage warranting an annulment.
What bothers me here about this is that it looks like the annulment process is undermining the teaching on the indissolubility of marriage, especially if virtually any failed marriage can be annulled.
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thomasf
Guest
No, you’re missing the point, again. As I stated earlier, all marriages are considered valid unless otherwise proved. What I’m saying is not that 20% of catholics aren’t married, but that based on the figures I ran through, 20% of catholics MIGHT have grounds for annulment due to impediment IF their marriage breaks up.Gee whiz, if 20 % of CATHOLICS aren’t really married, can you imagine how high the number is in non-Catholic “marriages”!
If you are married, you are married. Annulments and the invalidity of a marriage ONLY APPLY to those whose marriages break up.
As long as you get married in the church in a proper church canonical marriage, you are married. Even if you aren’t married in the church, if you’re not catholic or not baptized, the church may still view your marriage as valid. Annulments don’t nullify proper marriages that are successful because there MIGHT be reasons the marriage wasn’t valid to begin with.
What are you talking about? If you are married, you are married. The only people who should worry if they aren’t validly married are those who weren’t married sacramentally. Those marriages don’t have canonical form, aren’t sacramental. Otherwise, if you get married in a church, in the eyes of God, and you have a successful marriage, then you have a valid marriage. Even if there is some kind of impediment somewhere in there that might be found upon examination. Even if that impedement exists, if your marriage is successful, then you’re married.That’s a pretty scary thing for the Church to do if my parents, not to mention many couples from their generation, are not validly married. That’s a big problem.
I think some of you are getting this whole concept wrong from the start. An annulment doesn’t apply to every marriage ever, successful or not.
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puzzleannie
Guest
not necessarily, as said before by a couple of people if the party or couple remedy the situation (if it is amenable to remedy) at some point, the marriage becomes valid (one example: changes their view and action re contraception). In any case, any marriage contracted lawfully is considered valid until proven otherwise, and the question would not even arise or be considered unless and until the couple has parted with no chance of reconciliation.In other words, in St. Paul Minneapolis, the majority of so-called “married couples” are probably fornicating, practically speaking. That is the logical consequences of these statistics.
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do we even remember what this thread is about?
are we trashing all tribunal members, trashing canon law re annulment, trashing marriage prep, trashing marriage laws, or trashing our own exes and/or current spouses who have hurt us?
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bobzills
Guest
But being considered valid and being valid are two different things, aren’t they? For example, someone may consider a vaccine against cancer to be harmless, but in reality it may be harmful. Just because someone considers the vaccine to be harmless, does not make it so.In any case, any marriage contracted lawfully is considered valid until proven otherwise, …
In other words, the fact that you consider a marriage to be valid, does not make it so.
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bobzills
Guest
You can speak for yourself, but for myself, I am looking at the statistics for Catholic annulments and comparing them to what has occurred in society at large with the divorce numbers. What I see is an enormous increase in the number of annulments being granted since 1930, and this increase in the number of Catholic annulments is way out of proportion to the rather small increase in the number of divorces in society at large.…are we trashing all tribunal members, trashing canon law re annulment, trashing marriage prep, trashing marriage laws, or trashing our own exes and/or current spouses who have hurt us?
I am also looking at the new reasons being used to give an annulment., Under these new interpretations, it has been noted that just about anyone can get an annulment. So what conclusion should a reasonable person draw from this information?
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puzzleannie
Guest
not a good analogy, does not matter if I deem the marriage is valid, it matters what canon law deems.But being considered valid and being valid are two different things, aren’t they? For example, someone may consider a vaccine against cancer to be harmless, but in reality it may be harmful. Just because someone considers the vaccine to be harmless, does not make it so.
In other words, the fact that you consider a marriage to be valid, does not make it so.
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bobzills
Guest
Being valid in reality and being considered valid are two different things.not a good analogy, does not matter if I deem the marriage is valid, it matters what canon law deems.
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