The Legitimacy of Today's Annulments.

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I think it is scandalous to broadly attack the tribunals, canon law, and by extension the Church.
Well, as Father Kennedy has pointed out: " The popes and the Roman Rota have tried to stop what they consider to be abuses of marriage tribunals in the United States and elsewhere, as, for example, in the Netherlands, but apparently without success. Even the fact that the Rota overturned over 90% of the appeals made to it from the United States has had no observable effect."
And it is not restricted to the USA. For example, Father Kennedy quotes a report from Vasoli that in reference to Canada: “Cardinal Edouard Gagnon . . . related that during a visit to Alberta he and several bishops had occasion to examine sentences handled by an officialis [a judge] who did not believe in the indissolubility of marriage.” In 1997 in Canada, 3,187 First Instance cases were resolved by sentence, in which 3,146 annulments were granted and only 41 were denied. In the same year in Canada, of 2951 Second Instance appeal cases, only 29 First Instance cases were overturned.
 
bobzills,

What I gather from your posts is that you believe that people such as myself should not submit petitions for declarations of nullity as tribunals can not be trusted since they seem to have a peculiar obsession with handing out affirmative decisions when the marriages in question are actually valid. If I am to receive an affirmative decision in my petition for nullity, I should definitely not believe it to be legitimate, and should I choose to remarry, I will surely burn in hell for all eternity as an adulterer? What’s more the Church has absolutely no power to do anything with these tribunals who want to do nothing other declare perfectly valid marriages as being null.

Is that what you believe?
 
bobzills,

What I gather from your posts is that you believe that people such as myself should not submit petitions for declarations of nullity as tribunals can not be trusted since they seem to have a peculiar obsession with handing out affirmative decisions when the marriages in question are actually valid. If I am to receive an affirmative decision in my petition for nullity, I should definitely not believe it to be legitimate, and should I choose to remarry, I will surely burn in hell for all eternity as an adulterer? What’s more the Church has absolutely no power to do anything with these tribunals who want to do nothing other declare perfectly valid marriages as being null.

Is that what you believe?
dulcissima,

That is how I am interpreting what he is saying well.

Bobzills,

If that is ***NOT ***what you are saying, I think you will need to clarify as at least two people on this thread have completely misunderstood you.
 
Well, as Father Kennedy has pointed out: " The popes and the Roman Rota have tried to stop what they consider to be abuses of marriage tribunals in the United States and elsewhere, as, for example, in the Netherlands, but apparently without success. Even the fact that the Rota overturned over 90% of the appeals made to it from the United States has had no observable effect."
And it is not restricted to the USA. For example, Father Kennedy quotes a report from Vasoli that in reference to Canada: “Cardinal Edouard Gagnon . . . related that during a visit to Alberta he and several bishops had occasion to examine sentences handled by an officialis [a judge] who did not believe in the indissolubility of marriage.” In 1997 in Canada, 3,187 First Instance cases were resolved by sentence, in which 3,146 annulments were granted and only 41 were denied. In the same year in Canada, of 2951 Second Instance appeal cases, only 29 First Instance cases were overturned.
So what? Without knowing why they were granted how can we know that they were not validly granted?

One couple I’m familiar with got married with great fanfare: velvet invitations, white dress with train a mile long, etc, etc. She was the rich merchant’s daughter, he was the farmer’s son. She was pregnant. They had a major fight 2 nights before the wedding. They were married long enough that she had another baby – not his. They got divorced and he got a decree of nullity - anyone surprised?
 
So what? Without knowing why they were granted how can we know that they were not validly granted?

One couple I’m familiar with got married with great fanfare: velvet invitations, white dress with train a mile long, etc, etc. She was the rich merchant’s daughter, he was the farmer’s son. She was pregnant. They had a major fight 2 nights before the wedding. They were married long enough that she had another baby – not his. They got divorced and he got a decree of nullity - anyone surprised?
Nope! Shotgun weddings usually are ground for an annulment
 
Nope! Shotgun weddings usually are ground for an annulment
Exactly. But according to some people this annulment should never have been granted. I think they have it wrong – the wedding should never have been celebrated.

I’m glad that priests today will counsel couples to wait if they decide to get married while pregnant.
 
Exactly. But according to some people this annulment should never have been granted. I think they have it wrong --** the wedding should never have been celebrated**.

I’m glad that priests today will counsel couples to wait if they decide to get married while pregnant.
👍
 
dulcissima,

That is how I am interpreting what he is saying well.

Bobzills,

If that is ***NOT ***what you are saying, I think you will need to clarify as at least two people on this thread have completely misunderstood you.
I am not talking about any individual cases.
What I have been trying to point out is the following:
  1. According to the reports, just about any marriage in the USA today can be annulled.
  2. Since any marriage in the USA can be annulled, the annulment process is really not much different from the divorce process followed by other religious organisations, except that it goes by a different name.
  3. This means that in reality, there has been a de facto change in the teaching of the Church on the indissolubility of marriage. Although theoretically, the Church still holds to the teaching of the indissolubility of marriage, in actual practice it doesn’t mean much, because just about any marriage in the USA can be annulled.
 
I think you guys are being too hard on bobzills. I’m not sure I agree with all his implications, but he surely has shined a spotlight on a problem. On NUMEROUS occasions I have been amongst acquaintences who have joked about ‘catholic divorces.’ The situation is the very definition of scandal.

To my mind, the numbers most likely indicate that tribunals are simply relying upon the testimony of the couples and ruling accordingly. Lets face it, we live in a time when the MAJORITY of catholics pick and choose what catholic teachings they want to accept and which they chose to ignore (usually sexual and economic). I don’t think bob is saying that the tribunals are operating an anullment handout operation, rather he seems to be pointing out that the tribunals are not being particularly judicious. Are they really making any attempt to discern between sincere applicants and those who are making responses that they know will get them the outcome they desire? Don’t kid yourself, there are LOTS of catholics who want the cultural trappings of catholicism without all the pesky moral teachings.

Furthermore, it seems to me that a tribunal ought to include a certain amount of confrontation of sin when it is sinful behavior that consitutes the ‘defective consent.’ This is just brainstorming, but I wonder if those whose defect was their own sin oughtn’t have to demonstrate remorse and repentance somehow before they are allowed to marry in the church again. Perhaps the marriage should be anulled, but their sacramental record should be noted to disallow remarriage until such time as it is clear that the defect is unlikely to reoccur.

Finally, I think it is a spiritual crime that couples are not rigorously inspected with a list of potential defects in consent before marriage. Such a list would not be difficult to provide and would add just a few hours to a final marriage prep session. Couples whose responses indicate a defect in consent should not be allowed to fool themselves into believing they are getting a sacramentally marriage. That doesn’t SOUND very pastoral, but it is actually MORE pastoral than the ‘head-in-sand until anullment time’ policy now in place. I suppose you could even make it more pastoral to allow the wedding to proceed in the church as long as the COUPLE (even if know one else) is clearly informed that it will merely be a natural, not a sacramental marriage: no special graces of the sacrament.) That way the couple isn’t publicly humiliated, but is still left with a clear teaching that they aren’t quite right with God. If the defect is later cleared up, GREAT! Come on back and a quiet private event can make things sacramental - nobody the wiser, except the couple themselves.
 
I think you guys are being too hard on bobzills. I’m not sure I agree with all his implications, but he surely has shined a spotlight on a problem. On NUMEROUS occasions I have been amongst acquaintences who have joked about ‘catholic divorces.’ The situation is the very definition of scandal.

To my mind, the numbers most likely indicate that tribunals are simply relying upon the testimony of the couples and ruling accordingly. **Lets face it, we live in a time when the MAJORITY of catholics pick and choose what catholic teachings they want to accept and which they chose to ignore (usually sexual and economic). **I don’t think bob is saying that the tribunals are operating an anullment handout operation, rather he seems to be pointing out that the tribunals are not being particularly judicious. Are they really making any attempt to discern between sincere applicants and those who are making responses that they know will get them the outcome they desire? Don’t kid yourself, there are LOTS of catholics who want the cultural trappings of catholicism without all the pesky moral teachings.

Furthermore, it seems to me that a tribunal ought to include a certain amount of confrontation of sin when it is sinful behavior that consitutes the ‘defective consent.’ This is just brainstorming, but I wonder if those whose defect was their own sin oughtn’t have to demonstrate remorse and repentance somehow before they are allowed to marry in the church again. Perhaps the marriage should be anulled, but their sacramental record should be noted to disallow remarriage until such time as it is clear that the defect is unlikely to reoccur.

Finally, I think it is a spiritual crime that couples are not rigorously inspected with a list of potential defects in consent before marriage. Such a list would not be difficult to provide and would add just a few hours to a final marriage prep session. Couples whose responses indicate a defect in consent should not be allowed to fool themselves into believing they are getting a sacramentally marriage. That doesn’t SOUND very pastoral, but it is actually MORE pastoral than the ‘head-in-sand until anullment time’ policy now in place. I suppose you could even make it more pastoral to allow the wedding to proceed in the church as long as the COUPLE (even if know one else) is clearly informed that it will merely be a natural, not a sacramental marriage: no special graces of the sacrament.) That way the couple isn’t publicly humiliated, but is still left with a clear teaching that they aren’t quite right with God. If the defect is later cleared up, GREAT! Come on back and a quiet private event can make things sacramental - nobody the wiser, except the couple themselves.
Made some great points!
 
Lets face it, we live in a time when the MAJORITY of catholics pick and choose what catholic teachings they want to accept and which they chose to ignore (usually sexual and economic)… Don’t kid yourself, there are LOTS of catholics who want the cultural trappings of catholicism without all the pesky moral teachings.
This is the very heart of the problem, not the tribunals and not canon law. When these same people marry, how can they possibly be entering into a valid and sacramental marriage when they don’t have the proper intentions? It would be nice to be able to read the hearts of people and know their intentions before they say their vows, but really all we can do is speculate based on their behavior leading up to the exchange of vows and afterwards. Oftentimes the pattern of behavior is rather clear, once you step back to examine it.
Furthermore, it seems to me that a tribunal ought to include a certain amount of confrontation of sin when it is sinful behavior that consitutes the ‘defective consent.’ This is just brainstorming, but I wonder if those whose defect was their own sin oughtn’t have to demonstrate remorse and repentance somehow before they are allowed to marry in the church again. Perhaps the marriage should be anulled, but their sacramental record should be noted to disallow remarriage until such time as it is clear that the defect is unlikely to reoccur.
This does indeed happen:

Prohibitions and restrictions come in the form of a monitum or a vetitum. A monitum is a warning of some kind—such as that one party was the victim of domestic violence or that the other is prone to alcoholism. It is a yellow light that warns a priest or deacon about previous difficulties before he officiates at the wedding of a party to an annulled marriage. The monitum is generally addressed to the individual charged with preparing the new couple for marriage.

A vetitum is more serious. The vetitum is a red light telling a priest or deacon that a new marriage may not proceed until certain conditions are met. It requires a specific action by the party to the invalid marriage—and possibly his or her intended spouse—before a new marriage can take place. If the husband, for example, is prone to serious drug addiction, a vetitum might require him to demonstrate that he has been drug free for at least a year before being allowed another attempt at marriage. Generally, these prohibitions or restrictions can be lifted only by the bishop or his judicial vicar.
www.catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0605fea5.asp
Finally, I think it is a spiritual crime that couples are not rigorously inspected with a list of potential defects in consent before marriage. Such a list would not be difficult to provide and would add just a few hours to a final marriage prep session. Couples whose responses indicate a defect in consent should not be allowed to fool themselves into believing they are getting a sacramentally marriage. That doesn’t SOUND very pastoral, but it is actually MORE pastoral than the ‘head-in-sand until anullment time’ policy now in place. I suppose you could even make it more pastoral to allow the wedding to proceed in the church as long as the COUPLE (even if know one else) is clearly informed that it will merely be a natural, not a sacramental marriage: no special graces of the sacrament.) That way the couple isn’t publicly humiliated, but is still left with a clear teaching that they aren’t quite right with God. If the defect is later cleared up, GREAT! Come on back and a quiet private event can make things sacramental - nobody the wiser, except the couple themselves.
I think not marrying them makes more sense rather than “not really” marrying them.
 
I am not talking about any individual cases.
What I have been trying to point out is the following:
  1. According to the reports, just about any marriage in the USA today can be annulled.
  2. Since any marriage in the USA can be annulled, the annulment process is really not much different from the divorce process followed by other religious organisations, except that it goes by a different name.
  3. This means that in reality, there has been a de facto change in the teaching of the Church on the indissolubility of marriage. Although theoretically, the Church still holds to the teaching of the indissolubility of marriage, in actual practice it doesn’t mean much, because just about any marriage in the USA can be annulled.
The reports do not show that just about any marriage in the USA can be annuled. Only marriages that have broken down and ended in divorce can even begin to be examined for the possibility of a declaration of nullity.

I think it should not be terribly surprising though that marriages where people went into them with the proper understanding and intentions, and receiving the graces of a sacramental marriage, never break down irreparably. There is a big difference between a marriage where both party meant their vows and one where one party to the marriage never did. One of those marriages will survive rocky times, and the other might not even survive good times.

I think the Catholic annulment process actually honors and respects the sacrament of marriage by properly identifying what was not a marriage. That’s really the point that I would like to make to my kids, that despite my best intentions and efforts, that what their father and I had was not a marriage. I want them to know what a marriage really is.
 
Finally, I think it is a spiritual crime that couples are not rigorously inspected with a list of potential defects in consent before marriage. Such a list would not be difficult to provide and would add just a few hours to a final marriage prep session. Couples whose responses indicate a defect in consent should not be allowed to fool themselves into believing they are getting a sacramentally marriage.
Could we stop confusing sacramental with valid? A decree of nullity rules on the validity of a marriage not its sacramentality. Obviously, no invalid marriage is sacramental but that does not mean that all valid marriages celebrated in the Catholic Church are sacramental.
 
Could we stop confusing sacramental with valid? A decree of nullity rules on the validity of a marriage not its sacramentality. Obviously, no invalid marriage is sacramental but that does not mean that all valid marriages celebrated in the Catholic Church are sacramental.
an annulment is a declaration by the Church that no valid sacramental marriage existed, because there was no true Sacrament of Marriage as the Church teaches it from the beginning. www.rcan.org
 
I think not marrying them makes more sense rather than “not really” marrying them.
I think we might see fewer petitions for annulments if the Church got out of the legal marriage business. If couples had to marry at the court house before coming to the Church I think we’d only see couples to whom it really means something to be married in the Church, rather than those who are simply marrying there for the pictures or to please Nana.
 
an annulment is a declaration by the Church that no valid sacramental marriage existed, because there was no true Sacrament of Marriage as the Church teaches it from the beginning. www.rcan.org
No, it rules that no VALID marriage existed. Just because a marriage is valid doesn’t mean it’s sacramental.
 
In our parish, just last week, we celebrated what we presume is a valid marriage. But it wasn’t a sacramental marriage and it may never be.
if marriage is one of the sacraments of the Catholic Church, why wouldnt this one be a sacramental marriage–where not both parties catholics??
 
if marriage is one of the sacraments of the Catholic Church, why wouldnt this one be a sacramental marriage??
Because the groom is not baptized. He cannot receive a sacrament. Theirs is a natural marriage and will remain so until the day that the groom gets baptized. If he does on that day their marriage becomes sacramental.
 
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