The lesser of two "evils"?

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Through another thread regarding abortion I read about an idea which has apparently helped decrease the number of abortions in an area of Latin America somewhat.
So let me pose this possibility: the Church does say that abortion is wrong at all times and with a few exceptions of double effect the use of artificial birth control is considered a sin. In the desire to diminish the number of abortions in America might it not be better to try pushing the “lesser of two evils”? Personally, (and I’m sure not everyone will agree) While the Church teaches that both are wrong - wouldn’t pushing birth control and having people use it correctly lead to less abortions? It seems to me that if the Church considers them both an “evil” than wouldn’t this be the “lesser of two evils”?

Below is a quote from an article showing that this method did work in Latin America - now while Latin America is deffinately a much different culture than America might not some of the same ideas be worth trying here in the States?

womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2086/context/archive

From the article: Illegal Abortions Rampant in Latin America
Run Date: 11/28/04
(yes this is an article that planned parenthood endorses - but if we can get over that and see that they were able to DIMINISH the amount of abortions than maybe we can learn something from “the other side” - my apologies if this seems like a repeat from another thread - I just didn’t think I could ask this anywhere but in a new thread and get complete answers)

"Ramiro Molina, a doctor and the director of the Centre for Reproductive Medicine and Public Health at the University of Chile, led a 10-year study in three impoverished communities on the outskirts of Santiago. Clinicians provided direct medical attention for women at high risk of pregnancy. A social worker also called them regularly and worked around their schedules. They had access to all birth control methods, education, counseling and follow-up visits. The abortion rate dropped 82 percent in some communities after this intense grassroots intervention.

Public health advocates cite the study as proof that abortion rates can be lowered through improved availability, delivery and quality of contraception and the establishment of post-abortion contraceptive counseling in hospitals."

I agree that it would be better if there were fewer pregnancies “out of wedlock” but this is how our society has evolved- but I don’t think we’re going to change (anytime soon) the underlying social commentary in the US that tells everyone from 3 year old kids to teenagers to young adults and on to 80 year old Grandparents that we should always be doing what “we” want-it’s going to take a long, long, long time to reverse the culture of “enjoy yourself and take take take now and consider the consequenses later (if ever)”-the think of yourself first, second, third and fourth and then if you still feel like it see to your neighbor"- I’m not sure how we’re going to fix that because there are many that have no desire to change or “fix” it.
 
Research actually tends to show a strong correlation between contraceptive usage and abortion. I’ve informally debated the point before, and I’ll have to see if I can dig up the findings again. Suffice it to say that contraception doesn’t equal reduced abortions; it is quite the opposite.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight
 
ryecroft said:
So let me pose this possibility: the Church does say that abortion is wrong at all times and with a few exceptions of double effect the use of artificial birth control is considered a sin. In the desire to diminish the number of abortions in America might it not be better to try pushing the “lesser of two evils”? Personally, (and I’m sure not everyone will agree) While the Church teaches that both are wrong - wouldn’t pushing birth control and having people use it correctly lead to less abortions? It seems to me that if the Church considers them both an “evil” than wouldn’t this be the “lesser of two evils”?
Click to expand...
. . . .or maybe the Church should teach that we should all be homosexuals so that no abortion could ever occur again.:mad:

The Church is a teaching office. It is not the Church’s business to teach people how to sin. We are all capable of figuring out how to sin by ourselves.
 
ryecroft said:
Through another thread regarding abortion I read about an idea which has apparently helped decrease the number of abortions in an area of Latin America somewhat.
So let me pose this possibility: the Church does say that abortion is wrong at all times and with a few exceptions of double effect the use of artificial birth control is considered a sin. In the desire to diminish the number of abortions in America might it not be better to try pushing the “lesser of two evils”? Personally, (and I’m sure not everyone will agree) While the Church teaches that both are wrong - wouldn’t pushing birth control and having people use it correctly lead to less abortions? It seems to me that if the Church considers them both an “evil” than wouldn’t this be the “lesser of two evils”?

Below is a quote from an article showing that this method did work in Latin America - now while Latin America is deffinately a much different culture than America might not some of the same ideas be worth trying here in the States?

womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2086/context/archive

From the article: Illegal Abortions Rampant in Latin America
Run Date: 11/28/04
(yes this is an article that planned parenthood endorses - but if we can get over that and see that they were able to DIMINISH the amount of abortions than maybe we can learn something from “the other side” - my apologies if this seems like a repeat from another thread - I just didn’t think I could ask this anywhere but in a new thread and get complete answers)

"Ramiro Molina, a doctor and the director of the Centre for Reproductive Medicine and Public Health at the University of Chile, led a 10-year study in three impoverished communities on the outskirts of Santiago. Clinicians provided direct medical attention for women at high risk of pregnancy. A social worker also called them regularly and worked around their schedules. They had access to all birth control methods, education, counseling and follow-up visits. The abortion rate dropped 82 percent in some communities after this intense grassroots intervention.

Public health advocates cite the study as proof that abortion rates can be lowered through improved availability, delivery and quality of contraception and the establishment of post-abortion contraceptive counseling in hospitals."

I agree that it would be better if there were fewer pregnancies “out of wedlock” but this is how our society has evolved- but I don’t think we’re going to change (anytime soon) the underlying social commentary in the US that tells everyone from 3 year old kids to teenagers to young adults and on to 80 year old Grandparents that we should always be doing what “we” want-it’s going to take a long, long, long time to reverse the culture of “enjoy yourself and take take take now and consider the consequenses later (if ever)”-the think of yourself first, second, third and fourth and then if you still feel like it see to your neighbor"- I’m not sure how we’re going to fix that because there are many that have no desire to change or “fix” it.
Click to expand...
Another ridiculous idea!

**First of all, contraception is abortion.
**
Secondly, recommending contraception to reduce abortion is like recommending using condoms to reduce AIDS. IT DOESN"T WORK!!!

An independent, non pro-life study at Harvard has proven that the aggressive promotion of condom use in every African country has resulted in increased AIDS. People are not perfect and they become “overconfident” and have unprotected sex, or more sex, feeling they are safe.

The only country in Africa with a reduced incidence of AIDS is Uganda, where the government promotes abstinence and marital monogamy! Pope Benedict XVI recently spoke out against condom use and was condemned, despite the scientific facts backing the Truth!!

Contraception has been promoted and glorified in the US for the past 50 years and we have 50+ MILLION dead innocent babies from abortion!!!
’
Love and respect for women, combined with abstinence until marriage is the only way to reduce abortion which is the scourge of our society and the gravest of evils against women, who always bear the brunt of these murders, both physically and emotionally!

This is the Truth and the Church has always taught the Truth of Jesus Christ! It is difficult and unpopular, but still True!!!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

Mark
 
The idea taken even at face value cannot be said to be a choice between the “lesser of two evils” since one is not forced to make a choice between either abortion or birth control.
 
Another proposal to attack Truth with Lies. If only we would believe The Lie would we then be able to right the world’s wrongs.

Abortion is an intrinsic evil and a Lie in all circumstances.

Artificial contraception is an intrinsic evil and a Lie in all circumstances.

Follow the Truth, bear witness to The Truth, live the Truth which comes from He who is Truth. This is the way to fix the wrongs in this world.
 
First of all, contraception is abortion."

O.K. guys I really didn’t want to begin a debate on here about artificial birth control (ABC).
Not all contraception is abortion - there has been a lot said about abortifacients - but that is only with certain hormonal birth controls. When they first came out this was not even an issue due to the high amounts of estrogen and progesterone. There was no question of a “break through” ovulation. And prior to hearing that some hormonal birth control had the possibility of being an abortifacient, I was told that this was something that was very, very, very seldom and shouldn’t be worried too much about by my NFP instructors. And artifical birth control is allowed by the Church when medically necessary by double effect - even Fr. Serpa on here agrees with that:

This is a very important matter that is widely misunderstood:

The Church considers a miscarriage to be a physical evil. Since abortion DELIBERATELY causes a miscarriage, it is therefore also a MORAL evil. The Church sees an UNintended miscarriage as only a physical evil since it is not deliberately caused by the couple.

The use of the pill for medical reasons may cause an UNintended miscarriage. Women often have unintended miscarriages—sometimes without even knowing it. It is only miscarriages that are INTENDED that the Church considers immoral. The Church never allows the pill to be used as an abortifacient. But it does allow the use of the pill for medical reasons with the possiblity of producing an unintended miscarriage—without obliging the couple to abstain from sexual relations during that time.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

All I was trying to ask (and I can provide other studies I’ve found) was would it not be better if women didn’t even have the ability to get abortions because they were not pregnant?
There are multiple studies (and I did already put one up I believe) that have shown that when women have access to ABC and they are followed up with then the rate of abortions does diminish because they don’t get pregnant. It may not be the answer that is best but I don’t see anyone coming forward with ideas to diminish fornication (and by the way there are many, many abortions done on married women - there are just so many stats that I’m not sure which to put down). How do we get people - not just women to respect life more?

It’s wonderful to say make it illegal or change the way that our youth views fornication and pregnancy. But we have to find a way to do that. Saying it and wishing it won’t do it - Prayer will help it but as the Bible says The Lord Helps those that Help themselves. I really believe that God wants us to find an answer to this situation.

God Bless
Annie AKA Ryecroft
 
Ne_OrangeKnight said:
Research actually tends to show a strong correlation between contraceptive usage and abortion. I’ve informally debated the point before, and I’ll have to see if I can dig up the findings again. Suffice it to say that contraception doesn’t equal reduced abortions; it is quite the opposite.

Sam, the Neon Orange Knight
Click to expand...
To many people, abortion is just another form of contraception, a fail-safe one.
 
ryecroft said:
First of all, contraception is abortion."

O.K. guys I really didn’t want to begin a debate on here about artificial birth control (ABC).
Not all contraception is abortion - there has been a lot said about abortifacients - but that is only with certain hormonal birth controls. When they first came out this was not even an issue due to the high amounts of estrogen and progesterone. There was no question of a “break through” ovulation. And prior to hearing that some hormonal birth control had the possibility of being an abortifacient, I was told that this was something that was very, very, very seldom and shouldn’t be worried too much about by my NFP instructors. And artifical birth control is allowed by the Church when medically necessary by double effect - even Fr. Serpa on here agrees with that:

This is a very important matter that is widely misunderstood:

The Church considers a miscarriage to be a physical evil. Since abortion DELIBERATELY causes a miscarriage, it is therefore also a MORAL evil. The Church sees an UNintended miscarriage as only a physical evil since it is not deliberately caused by the couple.

The use of the pill for medical reasons may cause an UNintended miscarriage. Women often have unintended miscarriages—sometimes without even knowing it. It is only miscarriages that are INTENDED that the Church considers immoral. The Church never allows the pill to be used as an abortifacient. But it does allow the use of the pill for medical reasons with the possiblity of producing an unintended miscarriage—without obliging the couple to abstain from sexual relations during that time.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

All I was trying to ask (and I can provide other studies I’ve found) was would it not be better if women didn’t even have the ability to get abortions because they were not pregnant?
There are multiple studies (and I did already put one up I believe) that have shown that when women have access to ABC and they are followed up with then the rate of abortions does diminish because they don’t get pregnant. It may not be the answer that is best but I don’t see anyone coming forward with ideas to diminish fornication (and by the way there are many, many abortions done on married women - there are just so many stats that I’m not sure which to put down). How do we get people - not just women to respect life more?

It’s wonderful to say make it illegal or change the way that our youth views fornication and pregnancy. But we have to find a way to do that. Saying it and wishing it won’t do it - Prayer will help it but as the Bible says The Lord Helps those that Help themselves. I really believe that God wants us to find an answer to this situation.

God Bless
Annie AKA Ryecroft
Click to expand...
Before the pill, the biggest inhibitor of abortion or illegitimate pregnancy was shame. One of the consequences of the sexual revolutution was that the shame went away.
 
GodLovesTheSpek said:
Another proposal to attack Truth with Lies. If only we would believe The Lie would we then be able to right the world’s wrongs.

Abortion is an intrinsic evil and a Lie in all circumstances.

Artificial contraception is an intrinsic evil and a Lie in all circumstances.

Follow the Truth, bear witness to The Truth, live the Truth which comes from He who is Truth. This is the way to fix the wrongs in this world.
Click to expand...
Although both are seriously wrong, I think that abortion is more wrong than non-abortifacient contraception? The Church will excommunicate someone who has a procured abortion but does not excommunicate those Catholics who are contracepting. If the clergy are strongly against contraception, then why do many of us never hear about it from the pulpit and why do studies show that a large percentage of Catholics are contracepting? At one local Catholic college, for example, a poll was taken on the issue and fewer than 50% of entering students thought that ABC was not sinful for married couples. But after four years of Catholic theology classes, more than ninety percent of graduating seniors said that ABC was not a sin for married couples.
 
ryecroft said:
First of all, contraception is abortion."

O.K. guys I really didn’t want to begin a debate on here about artificial birth control (ABC).
Not all contraception is abortion - there has been a lot said about abortifacients - but that is only with certain hormonal birth controls. When they first came out this was not even an issue due to the high amounts of estrogen and progesterone. There was no question of a “break through” ovulation. And prior to hearing that some hormonal birth control had the possibility of being an abortifacient, I was told that this was something that was very, very, very seldom and shouldn’t be worried too much about by my NFP instructors. And artifical birth control is allowed by the Church when medically necessary by double effect - even Fr. Serpa on here agrees with that:

This is a very important matter that is widely misunderstood:

The Church considers a miscarriage to be a physical evil. Since abortion DELIBERATELY causes a miscarriage, it is therefore also a MORAL evil. The Church sees an UNintended miscarriage as only a physical evil since it is not deliberately caused by the couple.

The use of the pill for medical reasons may cause an UNintended miscarriage. Women often have unintended miscarriages—sometimes without even knowing it. It is only miscarriages that are INTENDED that the Church considers immoral. The Church never allows the pill to be used as an abortifacient. But it does allow the use of the pill for medical reasons with the possiblity of producing an unintended miscarriage—without obliging the couple to abstain from sexual relations during that time.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

All I was trying to ask (and I can provide other studies I’ve found) was would it not be better if women didn’t even have the ability to get abortions because they were not pregnant?
There are multiple studies (and I did already put one up I believe) that have shown that when women have access to ABC and they are followed up with then the rate of abortions does diminish because they don’t get pregnant. It may not be the answer that is best but I don’t see anyone coming forward with ideas to diminish fornication (and by the way there are many, many abortions done on married women - there are just so many stats that I’m not sure which to put down). How do we get people - not just women to respect life more?

It’s wonderful to say make it illegal or change the way that our youth views fornication and pregnancy. But we have to find a way to do that. Saying it and wishing it won’t do it - Prayer will help it but as the Bible says The Lord Helps those that Help themselves. I really believe that God wants us to find an answer to this situation.

God Bless
Annie AKA Ryecroft
Click to expand...
I think your question is legitimate and good. I think it’s something our Church is struggling with (e.g. in Africa).

I’m afraid you may not find a useful conversation here, though, e.g. when you get responses that ludicrously assert “contraception is abortion.”

Best wishes.
 
ryecroft said:
as the Bible says The Lord Helps those that Help themselves. I really believe that God wants us to find an answer to this situation.
Click to expand...
Off the subject, but, that was said by Ben Franklin, it is not in the Bible 😃
 
In the U.S. the widespread acceptance and use of artificial contraception has led to an dramatic increase in both out of wedlock pregnancies and abortion–precisely those things we were told that it would prevent.
 
Originally Posted by ryecroft
as the Bible says The Lord Helps those that Help themselves. I really believe that God wants us to find an answer to this situation.

Off the subject, but, that was said by Ben Franklin, it is not in the Bible

My bad! But actually, we’re both wrong! It’s actually form Aesop’s Fables! but there are some notes in the bible in Chronicles but mostly in Psalms that comes fairly close -

“The LORD helps them and delivers them; He delivers them from the wicked and saves them, Because they take refuge in Him.” is actually 25:20 Chronicles - Sorry - I don’t know why I thought that was in the Bible - whoops@!
 
diggerdomer said:
I think your question is legitimate and good. I think it’s something our Church is struggling with (e.g. in Africa).

I’m afraid you may not find a useful conversation here, though, e.g. when you get responses that ludicrously assert “contraception is abortion.”

Best wishes.
Click to expand...
What the Church is struggling with in Africa iswhat it struggled with in the Roman Empire, before and after it achieved liberty: human nature and a culture that had little respect for human dignity. Among the pagans and the half-crhistianized, Roman or German, polytheism and polygamy remained a strong force. The good thing about the Africans is that they can better related to the early Christians since they are under no illusion that events are under their control.
 
Still going on. Think that it is only a choice between two intrinsic evils? Deny both Lies and choose Truth. If someone proposes that Truth cannot be chosen then they ask to not choose God.
 
Biggie said:
The idea taken even at face value cannot be said to be a choice between the “lesser of two evils” since one is not forced to make a choice between either abortion or birth control.
Click to expand...
No one should have past up this post, because it really answers the question. Read it carefully and the answer is obvious to anyone that is capable of listening and not talking.
 
The idea taken even at face value cannot be said to be a choice between the “lesser of two evils” since one is not forced to make a choice between either abortion or birth control.

That is a lovely “idea” - but I wasn’t asking about ideas - (well, not here anyway - in another thread, I asked if people could come up with any “new ideas” to help keep women from getting abortions - not comments about how it’s evil and it’s a choice between good and evil - but something like some of the anti abortion people came up with such as sidewalk counseling or showing the remains of a late term abortion- something that might actually have a chance of helping - God knows if we want abortion gone we need to come up with other ideas such as trying to get women on birth control and monitoring them with follow ups and having them use actual birth control instead of using abortion as birth control)

those that are anti abortion need to come up with something else that will help - not just platitudes that to the women who are seeking abortions are no longer effective. Perhaps if those that are anti-abortion could look at this from a kind of advertising stand point (as far as the rhetoric goes) they might make a woman give pause to her next course of action. Even that might help some. Actually, now that I think of it, I find it almost shocking that there hasn’t been that much difference in what has been said - I’m not saying there hasn’t been any difference -there have been a couple more commercials but all and all anytime I hear people talk about anti abortion issues I still hear the “choose life” (I still remember seeing that Wham video in Japan in the 80’s) - It’s not that it’s not good or true any more- but when you’ve heard it so many times that it has become a platitude, I wonder how it can still be considered effective. I’m not trying to be negative about this - just real - if we were trying to get someone not to buy something or to try something different we wouldn’t still be saying “where’s the beef?” Granted a different situation(and by no means am I attempting to be crass) but along the same lines.
I wish it were as uncomplicated as saying that abortion is wrong don’t do it - but it just isn’t that simple.
 
One thing to remember, some of us are out there, every day, working to save lives. We have seen first hand what works and what does not.

There is education that works, that is educating women that what they have inside them is a human being, a little tiny person - not a glob of tissue. Remember the movie “Juno” where the girl decides agains abortion because she is taught that the baby “has fingernails”. Those who work in the trenches in the pro-life world see that kind of response over and over again.

Another education that works is to let women know the DO have the choice to keep the baby. That the pressure that is coming at them from parents and grandparents and the clinic they went to, the horror stories that this will “ruin your life” “you will never graduate high school or go to college” “you will live in poverty if you have this child” that these things do not have to be true.

Another is education about the loving option of adoption. There are girls and women who would rather abort than place the child for adoption. It is crazy that there are so many loving couples out there who would provide a good home for any child, yet, this choice is not discussed by ANYONE outside the pro-life movement.

Education about what planned parenthood is. Learn what percentage of the millions of dollars they take in goes toward abortion and abortion counseling vs other services. It will make you go :eek: They are a business, yet, people seem to think that they deserve our tax money and donations all day long. If you want to help, give money to the crisis pregnancy center in your community.

Education for medical professionals, that they will not suggest abortion as a first option when a child is diagnosed in utereo with a genetic or other physical flaw. 90% of flawed children are aborted. 9 out of 10, I am genetically flawed. Doctors today would look at me on an ultrasound and 9 out of 10 times scare that mother into killing me.

Education about how to care for pregnant women with serious health issues, so both they AND their baby can be given the best chance. Abortion has become the easy way to avoid messy complex medical issuse (kind of like the pill has become the easy way to avoid treating the cause of women’s health issues).

There are many kinds of education we need. I work on them every day.

Also know, God told us what to do “Humble yourselves AND pray”. We need to pray, we also have to humble ourselves. It is very humbling to stand on a sidewalk and be called names. I challange every one of you to try a prayer vigil.
 
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