The lesser of two "evils"?

[Trader]

**It is unfortunate that, in the face of everything we know about HIV, there are still individuals who live for the moment, seeking instant gratification. Many suffer for their indiscretions and some will die from them. But culturally speaking, those of us living in the U.S. have no excuse to be unaware of the facts surrounding HIV. Those in sub-Saharan Africa are not so lucky.

Although use of a condom to prevent pregnancy is contrary to Church teaching, the focus of condom use with regard to primary HIV/AIDS infection lands, instead, on prevention of transmission. Just because some couples are careless or believe they are invincible to infection does not render the use of condoms for this purpose “just plain stupid and reckless”. This assessment is particularly egregious given the only option offered is total abstinence for unmarried and married alike. That is impractical and impracticable among an entire population of poverty-stricken people whose only relief from daily suffering might be the sex act.

Limerick **

The Africans I know and have met may be poor but they are intelligent and well educated.
They agree with me. They are Catholic priests from Nigeria and Uganda. A few of them are bishops, and one, Francis Arinze, is a cardinal. He celebrated mass at my parish on his birthday a few years ago(November 1). He has been a key advisor to Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.

Even the common people in Africa are perfectly capable of learning how to really protect themselves from HIV and changing their behavior to match that knowledge. If you had children, would you teach them that when crossing a busy street, they should look both ways 80-90% of the time? Because the consequences of not looking for traffic or relying on a condom are so serious, a higher level of care is required.

I can think of one means of spreading HIV where condom use would be appropriate, but not very practical. In genocidal wars in parts of Africa and also in Serbia there were infections spread by a plague of rapes. It would be morally acceptable for a rape victim to try to get the rapist to use a condom. She is not practicing contraception when she is not consenting to sex. I doubt that many rapists would care about doing that when the purpose of their act is to humiliate and harm the victim. Of course the better solution would be to have no rapes, but the same should be said for fornication, adultery, and sodomy.

 

[limerick]

The Africans I know and have met may be poor but they are intelligent and well educated.
They agree with me. They are Catholic priests from Nigeria and Uganda. A few of them are bishops, and one, Francis Arinze, is a cardinal. He celebrated mass at my parish on his birthday a few years ago(November 1). He has been a key advisor to Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.

Even the common people in Africa are perfectly capable of learning how to really protect themselves from HIV and changing their behavior to match that knowledge. If you had children, would you teach them that when crossing a busy street, they should look both ways 80-90% of the time? Because the consequences of not looking for traffic or relying on a condom are so serious, a higher level of care is required.

I can think of one means of spreading HIV where condom use would be appropriate, but not very practical. In genocidal wars in parts of Africa and also in Serbia there were infections spread by a plague of rapes. It would be morally acceptable for a rape victim to try to get the rapist to use a condom. She is not practicing contraception when she is not consenting to sex. I doubt that many rapists would care about doing that when the purpose of their act is to humiliate and harm the victim. Of course the better solution would be to have no rapes, but the same should be said for fornication, adultery, and sodomy.

**Have you ever been raped, Trader? I have. I would have sealed my own fate had I said, “Excuse me, I need to just run up to the Quickie Pickie for a sec and pick up a few condoms - there’s fried chicken and beer in the fridge, help yourself! Be back in a jif!” What are you thinking? Rape is the manifestation of a demand for power and control. It somehow didn’t seem prudent to enrage my attacker. Survival seemed the more appealing alternative to strive for under the circumstances.

You can win the Nobel Prize just as soon as you develop and implement a plan that will convince generations of common Africans to abstain completely from sexual activity until HIV and AIDS are eradicated.

Good luck.

Limerick**

 

[limerick]

When Planned Parenthood hands out condoms like cheap Halloween candy to children too young to even legally consent to sex, they are promoting irresponsible behavior. Motive? The increase of pregnancies in children not able to raise children means more abortion business for them. I know that is an oversimplification, but PP’s history of subverting parental notification laws and evading mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse shows that they have no problem breaking even minimal restrictons on their main business of providing abortions.

**So it’s not condoms per se that provokes your anger - it’s Planned Parenthood. So focus on Planned Parenthood, then. Get out there and do what you people do to bring to light those things which you feel are corrupt. That means taking your indignation out into the world as well as sharing it here where you are preaching to the choir.

Limerick**

 

[mapleoak]

**
What do your prayers sound like? Let’s eliminate the cute references to encouraging birth control contrary to Church teaching for a moment. Do you pray that God will enlighten the native Africans and show them the Truth as presented by the Roman Catholic Church?**

My prayers are irrelevant.
**

Do you pray that enough of them will succumb to HIV/AIDS that the others might have an “ah-ha moment”? What specifically do you ask of God, or do you just say, “Thy will be done” and then go have a sandwich?

**Maybe. Maybe not. It is irrelevant.
**

The disease is already here. It is killing people. Elsewhere on these threads it has been claimed that under certain conditions women may take the pill if it will help to correct or alleviate a health problem. Why would it be a sin, then, for a couple to use a condom to prevent the spread of a killer virus?

**Because artificial birth control is an intrinsic evil, just as is promiscuity. It is a moral evil to encourage others to sin. To do so makes one complicit with others’ sins.

 

[mapleoak]

**So it’s not condoms per se that provokes your anger - it’s Planned Parenthood. So focus on Planned Parenthood, then. Get out there and do what you people do to bring to light those things which you feel are corrupt. That means taking your indignation out into the world as well as sharing it here where you are preaching to the choir.

Limerick**

Because we have the courtesy to share our time with folks like you on these forums and have a rational discussion. The fact that you are here participating is indication that others are also around here who benefit from such discussions. It wouldn’t be very profitable to say “the Sun is yellow” and everyone else say “Yep, the Sun is yellow”. It is when you come and say “no, the Sun is blue” that we point out the error of conclusions such that others come to see the folly of your way of thinking. That is what makes discussion interesting.
As for Planned Parenthood, you are right on the money. We must oppose PP in all matters pertaining to the slaughter of the unborn as well as those condoning and promoting immorality and affronts to human dignity. Now can you indicate how participating in these forums is exclusive of efforts against PP?

 

[limerick]

mapleoak:
My prayers are irrelevant.

Then why on earth do you bother to pray?
**
**Maybe. Maybe not. It is irrelevant.

Would it be accurate to surmise that since your prayers are irrelevant, then no one’s prayers are relevant? Would that then not make the function and the promise of prayer nothing more than dogmatic hogwash?
**
**Because artificial birth control is an intrinsic evil, just as is promiscuity. It is a moral evil to encourage others to sin. To do so makes one complicit with others’ sins.

When the benefit of artificial birth control is removed from the equation, and one looks at condom use as having the potential to protect civilization from the ever-widening threat that is HIV, what makes its implementation sinful?

If you cannot separate one from the other, then what, aside from your irrelevant (and, therefore, useless prayers) is your solution? What is your contribution to the solution?

Limerick

 

[limerick]

Because we have the courtesy to share our time with folks like you on these forums and have a rational discussion. The fact that you are here participating is indication that others are also around here who benefit from such discussions. It wouldn’t be very profitable to say “the Sun is yellow” and everyone else say “Yep, the Sun is yellow”. It is when you come and say “no, the Sun is blue” that we point out the error of conclusions such that others come to see the folly of your way of thinking. That is what makes discussion interesting.
As for Planned Parenthood, you are right on the money. We must oppose PP in all matters pertaining to the slaughter of the unborn as well as those condoning and promoting immorality and affronts to human dignity. Now can you indicate how participating in these forums is exclusive of efforts against PP?

**I apologize, I don’t understand your question. Would you mind rephrasing it? Thanks.

Limerick**

 

[mapleoak]

I meant my prayers are irrelevant to the discussion.

 

[mapleoak]

Now can you indicate how participating in these forums is exclusive of efforts against PP?

**I apologize, I don’t understand your question. Would you mind rephrasing it? Thanks.

Limerick**

I apologize for not being clear.
I mean to say, participating in these forums does not mean that we are uni-taskers only capable of doing one thing, and one thing only.

 

[mapleoak]

When the benefit of artificial birth control is removed from the equation, and one looks at condom use as having the potential to protect civilization from the ever-widening threat that is HIV, what makes its implementation sinful?

If it were possible (which it isn’t) to separate condom use from birth control, it would still be wrong if used for promiscuous purposes. Anything that encourages immoral behavior, even under the guise of “if you’re going to do it anyway, might as well be safe” is still encouraging immoral behavior. It is no different than telling your kids not to play with a gun, but if you’re going to do so, make sure you are wearing a life vest.

** If you cannot separate one from the other, then what, aside from your irrelevant (and, therefore, useless prayers Irrelevant and Useless are not synonomous**) is your solution? What is your contribution to the solution?

There are many things which can be done. If it is possible to distribute condoms, it is likewise possible to substitute moral action in place of this immoral action.
Could you please explain what the bearing of my “personal” contribution to the solution has to do with whether it is morally acceptable for a Catholic in keeping with the teachings of the Church in trying to justify distributing birth control to people in African nations?

 

[limerick]

If it were possible (which it isn’t) to separate condom use from birth control, it would still be wrong if used for promiscuous purposes. Anything that encourages immoral behavior, even under the guise of “if you’re going to do it anyway, might as well be safe” is still encouraging immoral behavior. It is no different than telling your kids not to play with a gun, but if you’re going to do so, make sure you are wearing a life vest.
There are many things which can be done. If it is possible to distribute condoms, it is likewise possible to substitute moral action in place of this immoral action.
Could you please explain what the bearing of my “personal” contribution to the solution has to do with whether it is morally acceptable for a Catholic in keeping with the teachings of the Church in trying to justify distributing birth control to people in African nations?

**
When discussing the HIV/AIDS dilemma in Africa, I am not directing my comments specifically toward promiscuous behavior. I would guess there is a uniform level of what you call promiscuous behavior throughout the continents but, aside from promiscuous behavior**, HIV and AIDS are still a rapidly-growing problem. I am aghast at peoples’ refusal to even entertain the idea that, promiscuity notwithstanding, condoms, if used correctly, have the potential to help contain the virus.

Who is responsible to carry the message of “moral action” to those who are suffering from the threat of HIV and AIDS? Wouldn’t that be those who consider themselves to be in “fit spiritual condition”, such as yourself? This is why I ask about your personal contribution to the effort. Or are you just an armchair critic of all efforts to get a handle on this dilemma? Step One: Tithe and trust that the funds are allocated amongst those who most need those pamphlets and icons, and Step Two: Turn on the basketball game.

Is this you?

Limerick