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patrick457
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Anyone familiar with the Libri Carolini here?
Somewhat answering my own question:Anyone familiar with the Libri Carolini here?
I am not familiar with it. However, since you are interested in the Iconoclasm debate, you might be interested in an essay written by John Damascene re: the Fathers who were before him vis-a-vis holy imagery.Anyone familiar with the Libri Carolini here?
Thanks for mentioning St. John of Damascus’ work here, because it’s a good contrast.I am not familiar with it. However, since you are interested in the Iconoclasm debate, you might be interested in an essay written by John Damascene re: the Fathers who were before him vis-a-vis holy imagery.
“If images may be likened to the ark of the Lord, they would have to have a propitiatory, as it also had, and that fearful oracles be delivered from them. But no oracles have ever come from images; therefore, they are not to be equated with the ark of the Lord”
These arguments aren’t impressive to me. When you’re talking about the import of the Ark’s cherubim for the making of sacred art, it’s not enough for their side to point out that the command to make them was exceptional. It’s not even really true, since there was plenty of other carved works among the Jews, including carvings of human origin, such as the carved ships on the grave of Johnathan the son of Mattathias mentioned in 1 Macc. 13:25-30. But the really important point re: the Ark’s cherubim is that whether it was exceptional or not it still shows that making sacred art was not immoral. For if it was, God would not have commanded Moses to sin. Now since it is not a sin, and since it involves skill and understanding, which are virtues, it follows that art can be made without sin, and therefore should be put to use for good and sacred things – because every skill that is not sinful should be put to use for God’s glory.I noted earlier how the author rejected those passages in the Old Testament concerning the making of the Ark of the Covenant or the bronze serpent which Iconodules often used as prooftext in support for making images. (In the West, this idea has already been developed well enough by the venerable Bede.) This is because while the Byzantines saw God’s command to produce and decorate the Ark and the Tabernacle as the ultimate defence of Christian imagery, the author argued that the Ark did not really justify the mundane production of religious images because it was not a human commission: God directly ordered Moses to have them made. That in itself shows that it was an exception from the norm. Besides, the Ark and the Tabernacle were pale Old Testament prefigurations which have eventually been surpassed by realities of the New. “The Jews possessed in a material way things which, through their symbolism, were open prefigurations of things to come.”
This was why the representations of plants or animals or personified concepts in Western churches did not cause much offense: in Western thinking these artworks which celebrated the created world could be interpreted as metaphors or symbols for a higher reality, a language for understanding the divine. This concept of image as mere symbol or reminder gave birth to another mentality: that of the natural world being a reflection of the divinity but one that was distant and not direct. In other words, the terrestrial world provides an ‘image’ of God, but not in a direct manner as in Eastern icons.
The author wasn’t so much against art - it may not be necessary in his view, but it is useful - but against what he deems to be the worship of art. Really difficult, these Frankish theologians.These arguments aren’t impressive to me. When you’re talking about the import of the Ark’s cherubim for the making of sacred art, it’s not enough for their side to point out that the command to make them was exceptional. It’s not even really true, since there was plenty of other carved works among the Jews, including carvings of human origin, such as the carved ships on the grave of Johnathan the son of Mattathias mentioned in 1 Macc. 13:25-30. But the really important point re: the Ark’s cherubim is that whether it was exceptional or not it still shows that making sacred art was not immoral. For if it was, God would not have commanded Moses to sin. Now since it is not a sin, and since it involves skill and understanding, which are virtues, it follows that art can be made without sin, and therefore should be put to use for good and sacred things – because every skill that is not sinful should be put to use for God’s glory.
During Charlemagne’s reign there was no attempt to reduce the importance of relics; instead, there were attempts were made to bring their veneration under central control and to use them to bolster his general program of political, social and religious consolidation. The role of saints in every aspect of daily life was of course large in both Eastern and Western Churches; however, there was a profound distinction between the place of relics in the West and icons in the East.I should add a couple of things: the Libri Carolini’s preference of relics over images is reflected in the ‘craze’ for relics in the Carolingian period. (More on this later.)
This is what St. Bede says:I noted earlier how the author rejected those passages in the Old Testament concerning the making of the Ark of the Covenant or the bronze serpent which Iconodules often used as prooftext in support for making images. (In the West, this idea has already been developed well enough by the venerable Bede.)
Make that “they would not be in Heaven now.” Titivillus…The Libri Carolini addresses the Iconodule chestnut that the honor paid to the image of a saint passes to the prototype in this way. “Do the saints, who on their merits were able to rise to the heavenly kingdom, and whose images they then plan to adore by irresponsible devotion, solicit these superstitious or irrelevant honors? Do they permit themselves to be adored?” Had the saints been keen for honors while still alive, they would be in Heaven now. They enjoy the Lord’s honor, what other kind to they need? Many of the saints actively spurned honors in their lifetime so how can anyone believe that they would be delighted by having their images adored?
Are you bumping this to bring it to more peoples’ attention? Are you looking for an answer to the arguments made in the Libri Carolini? Are you looking for a translation of it? (You seem to be doing a pretty good job of that, for someone who, like me, doesn’t know Latin.) What exactly do you want us to tell you relative to that particular, um, essay (if that’s the right word for the work)?Bumping.