The lies about Thanksgiving

[Cat]

I think considering how many pilgrims died horrible deaths, it really can’t be said that they ruled triumphantly over those who didn’t agree with them. They suffered horribly for their faith.

The Pilgrims were among those small groups of people who were there at the very beginning and got the United States started. There were flaws, just as there were flaws in Sir Walter Raleigh’s colony, or in Christopher Columbus’ voyages. Certainly it’s appropriate to discuss the flaws that these people brought with them.

Just don’t forget to mention that, with the exception of slavery, the flaws and the intolerances towards religions were righted when the Constitution was ratified. And although it took another hundred years (almost), slavery WAS outlawed. And it took another HUNDRED years to guarantee civil rights to any race.

We’re getting there!

Flaws in human beings are STILL being righted in this nation through our system of government. Some people are upset that our Congress can’t seem to get anything done because of conflicts. Well, I’m grateful that a simple majority is NOT able to ram their extremist ideas, liberal or conservative, through Congress because of the way our government functions to allow debate, discussion, conflicts, and arguments. This is the way our government SHOULD work, because the alternative is for a simple majority to be able to say, “Enough conflict. We’ve voted, we won, and we’re doing it our way. All the rest of you can just lick it up.”

 

[LegoGE1947]

SLURP!!! Now we are still working on securing civil rights for the unborn!

 

[GEddie]

One hundred years AND a whole lot of killing, in the case of slavery.

ICXC NIKA

 

[LegoGE1947]

40 years and a whole lot of killing in the case of abortion.

 

[jakasaki]

If I were rich I would move to Long Island ASAP.

snip

.

I’m **not **rich and I live on Long Island…

 

[LegoGE1947]

I’m **not **rich and I live on Long Island…

Would that have anything to do with WHY you are not rich? I understand that anywhere near NYC can be quite expensive? But then that could be true with most any large city, I suppose.

 

[CarolNoel]

Did you know the myth of Thanksgiving taught in our schools is full of mistruths?

What we are taught is that the Pilgrims came to America in search of religious freedom. While that may have a germ of truth in it, the truth is far different. The Pilgrims sought religious freedom for themselves only.

They sat up the Congregational church as a state church in Massachusetts and then instantly began to persecute the followers of other faiths. And not only Anglicans and Catholics but even fellow Calvinists as well. Even Baptists.

Roger Williams had to found the colony of Rhode Island for religious freedom.

Believe it or not in these days of the Religious Right, Baptists were founded on the principle of religious freedom and the separation of church and state. I greatly admire the original Baptists for this.

Yes, we were taught the above in school. Love those nuns. Also, Christmas was forbidden to be celebrated in Mass., and if anyone did they were fined 5 shillings.

 

[LegoGE1947]

Yes, we were taught the above in school. Love those nuns. Also, Christmas was forbidden to be celebrated in Mass., and if anyone did they were fined 5 shillings.

There was a pianist in the 1950s named Roger Williams. Had a popular song called “Autumn Leaves”
► 2:55► 2:55
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tDQMqlHZt8
Nov 20, 2010 - Uploaded by chesterst10
Autumn Leaves Roger Williams 1955. chesterst10·45 videos … Autumn Leaves - Roger …

 

[Honorius]

Did you know the myth of Thanksgiving taught in our schools is full of mistruths?

What we are taught is that the Pilgrims came to America in search of religious freedom. While that may have a germ of truth in it, the truth is far different. The Pilgrims sought religious freedom for themselves only.

They sat up the Congregational church as a state church in Massachusetts and then instantly began to persecute the followers of other faiths. And not only Anglicans and Catholics but even fellow Calvinists as well. Even Baptists.

Roger Williams had to found the colony of Rhode Island for religious freedom.

Believe it or not in these days of the Religious Right, Baptists were founded on the principle of religious freedom and the separation of church and state. I greatly admire the original Baptists for this.

I can’t claim to be an expert in United States history, but I think you may be getting the Plymouth colony mixed up with the Massachusetts Bay Colony. The Puritans in Massachusetts were rather intolerant, I think the Pilgrims in Plymouth were a little better. Also, Roger Williams founded Rhode Island after leaving Massachusetts for Plymouth, then going back to Massachusetts, and wanting to found his own, “perfect” church. I do agree with the general statement though, that sometimes the whole thing is not taught and the reasons given for an action are rather simplified in schools these days.

 

[andrewstx]

I think you are taking commonly held ideas about the Pilgrims and then juxtaposing them as a political commentary on your dealing with Baptist in Texas. Likewise, you are trying to judge or make comments about people in the 1600’s with today’s standards and political understanding. It’s too easy to look at a group of people like the pilgrims and imply that they are a bunch of hypocrites because they tried to escape religous persecution in England yet when they set up their colony, their children turned around and went after others that didn’t share their religous ideas. You are not considering the times of the 1600’s where there wasn’t any religious freedom as we know and understand it today anywhere in the world. While they came to practice their faith as well as evangelize the native Americans (another over looked fact), they were still under the English crown and set up their early forms of government following what they basically understood and came from which is a state religious form of government. Yes, some of the other colonies ended up being setup like Rhode Island and Pennsylvania for furtherance of religious freedom. Again you are lumping todays standards with the past and linking political ideas together that don’t really belong. The relgious freedom as we have in the US today was not done in overnight sweeps but in baby steps in history and the pilgrims and their story is a baby step. Just like the US constitution which is suppose to put limits on the government was done in baby steps in history starting with the Magna Carta which put limits on the power of a King.

I think you maybe misread me, no big deal, it’s easily done in cyber communication. But you may have hit on one thing. Being born elsewhere but raised in Texas I quickly tired and tire of the Baptist and Evangelical arrogance here.

In my former city the First Baptist church had a street closed off at city expense to enlarge their parking lot. Whenever a prominent citizen dies the funeral is always held in First Baptist church.

Even though unconstitutional everyday in homeroom we had a “Dear Heavenly Father help all the students to ‘git saved’ in Jayzus Name Aymin” prayer. No one else was allowed to pray out loud. Not a Hail Mary or even and Our Father was allowed. The same thing happened at the High School football games.

It does become tiresome having the Baptist Religion shoved down your throat at all times, and the assumption that everyone is and must be Baptist. If you are not then something must be very wrong with you.

 

[LegoGE1947]

I have read about the myth of the Golden Age of Spain, and, if I recall, historians disagree on whether or not it really was so golden. If not true, this is like removing Santa Claus!

They just needed a little Brasso to remove the tarnish on the “gold”!

 

[robwar]

I think you maybe misread me, no big deal, it’s easily done in cyber communication. But you may have hit on one thing. Being born elsewhere but raised in Texas I quickly tired and tire of the Baptist and Evangelical arrogance here.

In my former city the First Baptist church had a street closed off at city expense to enlarge their parking lot. Whenever a prominent citizen dies the funeral is always held in First Baptist church.

Even though unconstitutional everyday in homeroom we had a “Dear Heavenly Father help all the students to ‘git saved’ in Jayzus Name Aymin” prayer. No one else was allowed to pray out loud. Not a Hail Mary or even and Our Father was allowed. The same thing happened at the High School football games.

It does become tiresome having the Baptist Religion shoved down your throat at all times, and the assumption that everyone is and must be Baptist. If you are not then something must be very wrong with you.

You proved my point, your frustration in living in the south surrounded by Baptists has nothing to do with the Pilgrims. As one poster accurately pointed out, people are confusioning the separist Pilgrims with the Puritans who came on their heals and became the majority of the Mass. colony. The Puritans were Anglicans that didn’t break away from the Church of England but wanted to purify it from within hence forth the name Puritans. The pilgrims didn’t think the anglican church could be purified and wanted to separate. It was also the Puritans that went after other religious ideas, only following what they knew from back home from the Church of England. If you want help in living with those frustrating Baptists in Texas, why don’t you start a thread asking how does a Catholic live in Texas with all those Baptists driving you nuts.

 

[LegoGE1947]

You proved my point, your frustration in living in the south surrounded by Baptists has nothing to do with the Pilgrims. As one poster accurately pointed out, people are confusioning the separist Pilgrims with the Puritans who came on their heals and became the majority of the Mass. colony. The Puritans were Anglicans that didn’t break away from the Church of England but wanted to purify it from within hence forth the name Puritans. The pilgrims didn’t think the anglican church could be purified and wanted to separate. It was also the Puritans that went after other religious ideas, only following what they knew from back home from the Church of England. If you want help in living with those frustrating Baptists in Texas, why don’t you start a thread asking how does a Catholic live in Texas with all those Baptists driving you nuts.

Maybe one about living in Chicago as a Baptist with all those Catholics driving you nuts?

 

[robwar]

Maybe one about living in Chicago as a Baptist with all those Catholics driving you nuts?

Lol!

 

[FrankLJ]

Did you know the myth of Thanksgiving taught in our schools is full of mistruths?

What we are taught is that the Pilgrims came to America in search of religious freedom. While that may have a germ of truth in it, the truth is far different. The Pilgrims sought religious freedom for themselves only.

They sat up the Congregational church as a state church in Massachusetts and then instantly began to persecute the followers of other faiths. And not only Anglicans and Catholics but even fellow Calvinists as well. Even Baptists.

Roger Williams had to found the colony of Rhode Island for religious freedom.

Believe it or not in these days of the Religious Right, Baptists were founded on the principle of religious freedom and the separation of church and state. I greatly admire the original Baptists for this.

This is more true of the Puritans who founded Boston. The Pilgrims who founded Plymouth colony were Plymouth Brethren, and fit the Thanksgiving image more closely. Plymouth was a separate colony for years before being absorbed by the Puritan’s larger Mass. Bay Colony.

 

[LegoGE1947]

This is more true of the Puritans who founded Boston. The Pilgrims who founded Plymouth colony were Plymouth Brethren, and fit the Thanksgiving image more closely. Plymouth was a separate colony for years before being absorbed by the Puritan’s larger Mass. Bay Colony.

Weren’t the Plymouth Brethren the group John Nelson Darby belonged to that began the whole heresy of “The Rapture.”? I know it was some group that split off the Anglican Church about 200 years ago and they were some “Brethren” group. Maybe I’m wrong about the name.

 

[robwar]

Weren’t the Plymouth Brethren the group John Nelson Darby belonged to that began the whole heresy of “The Rapture.”? I know it was some group that split off the Anglican Church about 200 years ago and they were some “Brethren” group. Maybe I’m wrong about the name.

I think you are right, I think Darby was the original one that started the end times speculation. Lets see here, pilgrims are responsible for Texas being overrun by crazy Baptists, and now they are the ones that probably started the rapture business. It seems like any bogey man we are dealing with today, we should just blame it on those pilgrims. A final thought, it must be those pilgrims that have booby trapped obama care’s web site. They are like George W Bush, any problem you are having blame it on those pilgrims or Bush 43.

 

[LegoGE1947]

I think you are right, I think Darby was the original one that started the end times speculation. Lets see here, pilgrims are responsible for Texas being overrun by crazy Baptists, and now they are the ones that probably started the rapture business. It seems like any bogey man we are dealing with today, we should just blame it on those pilgrims. A final thought, it must be those pilgrims that have booby trapped obama care’s web site. They are like George W Bush, any problem you are having blame it on those pilgrims or Bush 43.

It was a mentally challenged female follower of Darby that “had a vision” This started the ball rolling on the Rapture business. Then C. I. Schofield picked this stuff up and made his intensely popular study Bible with dispensational study notes. That is how it really took off. Many Protestants seem to believe that the footnotes in that Bible are as inspired as the Bible text.

 

[revert_jen]

So just what is wrong with including more of the history. The pilgrims did leave England to escape persecution for their beliefs, and did in fact then turn around and persecute others for their beliefs. Irony, hypocrisy, tragedy, you can call it what you like but it still happened and there’s no reason to avoid that aspect of our history and it shouldn’t be forgotten. When we ignore to the point of forgetting we have to learn it all over again.

Good post. It is entirely possible, contrary to common practice, to provide history that is more factual than polemic. We don’t know what was in the hearts of the Puritans (since it seems that the Pilgrims didn’t even do much in the way of persecuting–except that 1658 they did prevent people of other religious beliefs, and more specifically Quakers or people who helped Quakers, from voting). We can hypothesize that they were hypocrites, or we can hypothesize that they were just children of their times, but if we are writing history, either (or preferably both) speculation about their motives would be a side note to the main text, which would concentrate on what actually happened.

BTW, this is an interesting page about the laws of the Plymouth Colony: histarch.illinois.edu/plymouth/ccflaw.html

–Jen

 

[LegoGE1947]

It was a mentally challenged female follower of Darby that “had a vision” This started the ball rolling on the Rapture business. Then C. I. Schofield picked this stuff up and made his intensely popular study Bible with dispensational study notes. That is how it really took off. Many Protestants seem to believe that the footnotes in that Bible are as inspired as the Bible text.

Adding to this,the reason I know this is because before becoming Catholic my wife and I were among those who were led to totally trust the Schofield Reference Bible, my wife more so than I because she was born and raised Southern Baptist. I was born and raised in a home where no religion was practiced. Didn’t even become interested in any religion until I joined the Navy and at recruit training camp in the chapel they had this huge painting of “Jesus,My Pilot” A picture of a sailor struggling in a stormy sea to keep his ship on course and Jesus was standing behind with his hands on the ship’s steering wheel, helping.