The limits of humility

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I could use some help trying to discern the limits of humility. Advice is welcome but I’m looking for more of a deeper dive so some writings on the subject that could be useful would be appreciated.
I know it’s important to be meek and humble as our Lord was/is, but I’m wondering if I can be too humble. And how do I know where that point is. Sometimes, I feel like I’m being weak and allowing people to walk all over me. If so is that good or bad? (Turn the other cheek?) :confused:
How do I know if I’m suffering too much or not yet enough? Of course I want to do God’s will but that’s not always so clear. I know I should trust in God be not afraid or anxious (pray, hope, and don’t worry). I know I have to take up my cross daily and follow Him. But how do I know if this particular thing is meant to be my cross or if it’s a burden that I should cast off?
 
From Saint Josemaria Escriva

Evidences of a Lack of Humility
  1. To think that what one says or does is better than what others say or do
  2. To always want to get your own way
  3. To argue with stubbornness and bad manners whether you are right or wrong
  4. To give your opinion when it has not been requested or when charity does not demand it
  5. To look down on another’s point of view
  6. Not to look on your gifts and abilities as lent
  7. Not to recognize that you are unworthy of all honors and esteem, not even of the earth you walk on and things you possess
  8. To use yourself as an example in conversations
  9. To speak badly of yourself so that others will think well of you or contradict you
  10. To excuse yourself when you are corrected
  11. To hide humiliating faults from your spiritual director, so that he will not change the impression he has of you
  12. To take pleasure in praise and compliments
  13. To be saddened because others are held in higher esteem
  14. To refuse to perform inferior tasks
  15. To seek to stand out
  16. To refer in conversation to your honesty, genius, dexterity, or professional prestige
  17. To be ashamed because you lack certain goods
 
I don’t think I’m always right. But, I am right sometimes. And yet I do things someone else’s way because . . . humility and suffering and detachment are good. . . . right?
 
kaisersenheiser said:
I could use some help trying to discern the limits of humility. Advice is welcome but I’m looking for more of a deeper dive so some writings on the subject that could be useful would be appreciated.
I know it’s important to be meek and humble as our Lord was/is, but I’m wondering if I can be too humble. And how do I know where that point is. Sometimes, I feel like I’m being weak and allowing people to walk all over me. If so is that good or bad? (Turn the other cheek?) :confused:
How do I know if I’m suffering too much or not yet enough? Of course I want to do God’s will but that’s not always so clear. I know I should trust in God be not afraid or anxious (pray, hope, and don’t worry). I know I have to take up my cross daily and follow Him. But how do I know if this particular thing is meant to be my cross or if it’s a burden that I should cast off?
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No one is too humble. Do not think too much about things. I think Catholics or Christians have a tendency to overthink things rather than just live. You will fail, get back up and pray. Not everything needs to be scrutinized. Just try your best.
 
Humility is just recognizing the truth about one’s self. Everything we have and are comes from God. Without Him, we cannot do anything. In some areas I have a lot of talent. However, I don’t take credit for it because God gave it to me. I could take credit for the hard work I put into my accomplishments but ultimately the talent is from God.

Humility is not putting one’s self down saying I am a worm, I am nothing, everyone is better than I. Humility is not about allowing others to use or abuse you.
 
So, in marriage it’s total self-giving love right? “Husbands love your wives as. Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her …” right?
What does this mean? Does it mean I do whatever she wants? Maybe I should have asked about the limits of self-sacrifice or self-denial?
I know I should put my wife and child first. How best to do that? I’m not sure exactly when I should look out for my interests n:confused:
 
kaisersenheiser said:
So, in marriage it’s total self-giving love right? “Husbands love your wives as. Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her …” right?
What does this mean? Does it mean I do whatever she wants? Maybe I should have asked about the limits of self-sacrifice or self-denial?
I know I should put my wife and child first. How best to do that? I’m not sure exactly when I should look out for my interests n:confused:
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Loving someone means doing what is for their good, especially their eternal good. It does not mean doing whatever they ask of you – what they’re asking for may not be for their good. Even if it is not outright harmful, it could be something that enables or encourages a character trait of theirs that should be overcome.
A couple of examples:
If wife or child is too attached to acquiring worldly goods, then it would not be to their good to indulge them every time they ask you to pay for the latest new fad.
Or, if they’re lazy, it would not be to their good if you were to take over a task of theirs every time they asked you to.
 
Humility lies in acknowledging the truth and does not lie in self-depreciation.

It involves thinking of yourself less and not in thinking less of yourself. A person’s worth is rooted in God so we must recognize that worth in ourselves and also in others. So being a doormat is not necessarily a part of humility.

Reflecting on the Magnificat as spoken by Mary can teach us valuable lessons in humility.
 
I am wondering whether the real question is about setting boundaries rather than about humility. If someone else is constantly ignoring your needs, that is not humility - it is them walking all over you like a doormat. Yes, put your family first but that doesn’t mean they get everything they want or that you let yourself be treated poorly.
 
Sunbreak said:
I am wondering whether the real question is about setting boundaries rather than about humility. If someone else is constantly ignoring your needs, that is not humility - it is them walking all over you like a doormat. Yes, put your family first but that doesn’t mean they get everything they want or that you let yourself be treated poorly.
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Yes, perhaps. I’m trying to discern that line. What is the difference between a suffering that I should bear and something that I ought not to tolerate? I wonder if anyone knows a good work from a saint perhaps that expounds on this
 
kaisersenheiser said:
So, in marriage it’s total self-giving love right? “Husbands love your wives as. Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her …” right?
What does this mean? Does it mean I do whatever she wants? Maybe I should have asked about the limits of self-sacrifice or self-denial?
I know I should put my wife and child first. How best to do that? I’m not sure exactly when I should look out for my interests n:confused:
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How did Christ love the Church? He died for it. That is the love that husbands are to have for their wives. Are you prepared to give up your life for your family?
 
Sunbreak said:
I am wondering whether the real question is about setting boundaries rather than about humility. If someone else is constantly ignoring your needs, that is not humility - it is them walking all over you like a doormat. Yes, put your family first but that doesn’t mean they get everything they want or that you let yourself be treated poorly.
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Correct! It would not be good to allow others to use you as a doormat, as that is not good for them either!

Our Lord Jesus Christ has perfect humility, and he stood up to the Scribes and Pharisees with calm words.

And, He did use righteous anger when He beat the money-changers out of the temple.
 
Deo_Gratias42 said:
How did Christ love the Church? He died for it. That is the love that husbands are to have for their wives. Are you prepared to give up your life for your family?
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What does it mean to give up my life for my family? Am I prepared to die a physical death to protect them? of course. Am I prepared to give up things I’m attached to? sure. Should I give up everything in my life? I don’t know. Should I give up having access to the Sacraments of The Church?
 
kaisersenheiser said:
What does it mean to give up my life for my family? Am I prepared to die a physical death to protect them? of course. Am I prepared to give up things I’m attached to? sure. Should I give up everything in my life? I don’t know. Should I give up having access to the Sacraments of The Church?
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This should have been covered in marriage prep.

As the husband, you’re supposed to be the head of your household. God established a hierarchy, and put husbands over their wife and children for the spiritual benefit of the wife and children. The wife is to be subject to her husband for her own spiritual benefit. It is not humility for a husband to become his wife and children’s doormat. That’s false humility. God gave you authority, and for the good of your wife and children you must exercise your authority. Your wife should not be dictating to you when you can and cannot access the sacraments or your spiritual life. You are supposed to be the leader in your family. You’re supposed to be the one who says, “come on now; it’s time to pray the family rosary” or “Let’s go to the Church for confession. If you don’t have to go to confession, but you must come to church with us” or, “It’s First Friday, we’re going to Mass tonight.” “No, You have spent too much time playing video games. It’s time to clean the bathroom, etc”.
 
Deo_Gratias42 said:
This should have been covered in marriage prep.

As the husband, you’re supposed to be the head of your household. God established a hierarchy, and put husbands over their wife and children for the spiritual benefit of the wife and children. The wife is to be subject to her husband for her own spiritual benefit. It is not humility for a husband to become his wife and children’s doormat. That’s false humility. God gave you authority, and for the good of your wife and children you must exercise your authority. Your wife should not be dictating to you when you can and cannot access the sacraments or your spiritual life. You are supposed to be the leader in your family. You’re supposed to be the one who says, “come on now; it’s time to pray the family rosary” or “Let’s go to the Church for confession. If you don’t have to go to confession, but you must come to church with us” or, “It’s First Friday, we’re going to Mass tonight.” “No, You have spent too much time playing video games. It’s time to clean the bathroom, etc”.
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I had no marriage prep because I was married outside of the Church. My wife is Baptist. I am a cradle Catholic but I was fallen away at the time. I reverted in a major way about a year and a half ago. I’ve learned so much I didn’t know before including the Church’s teachings on marriage. I’ve been trying to get my invalid marriage convalidated for over a year now. My wife will have not agree to a convalidation and I’ve tried to get a Radical Sanation but that’s a no go right now. Father cannot in good conscience proceed with it at this point because it’s clear that what my wife has professed to believe about marriage does not square with what we as Catholics believe Holy Matrimony to be. So in the eyes of the Church I’m cohabitating basically and the Sacraments are not available to me until this situation is resolved.
 
kaisersenheiser said:
I had no marriage prep because I was married outside of the Church. My wife is Baptist. I am a cradle Catholic but I was fallen away at the time. I reverted in a major way about a year and a half ago. I’ve learned so much I didn’t know before including the Church’s teachings on marriage. I’ve been trying to get my invalid marriage convalidated for over a year now. My wife will have not agree to a convalidation and I’ve tried to get a Radical Sanation but that’s a no go right now. Father cannot in good conscience proceed with it at this point because it’s clear that what my wife has professed to believe about marriage does not square with what we as Catholics believe Holy Matrimony to be. So in the eyes of the Church I’m cohabitating basically and the Sacraments are not available to me until this situation is resolved.
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Can you not live as brother and sister?
 
Deo_Gratias42 said:
Can you not live as brother and sister?
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That was what I was first advised by a priest about a year ago. (Live as brother and sister so that I may receive the Sacraments). So that’s what I set out to do. I didn’t fully realize it right away but this GREATLY upset my wife. It brought up all sorts of deep-seated, I think anti-Catholic, issues. In fact she’s still bitter about it til this day. She thinks there’s something fundamentally wrong with me submitting to the authority of the Church. And she’s made it clear that the Catholic Church is to have absolutely no say in how she lives her life.
So this made matters worse and I was later counseled to not live as brother and sister but that I myself would take on the burden of being outside the Sacraments. That’s where we’ve been for about a year now. Ironically we’ve practically been living as brother and sister for months now but not because of any principled stance but more because my wife can’t stand me.
I don’t really want to be in an invalid marriage as living as brother and sister for the rest of my life. I want to be a husband and a father. I want more kids. (we have a baby girl)
Right now, I struggle to see an outcome to this that I will be at peace with.
 
+JMJ+
kaisersenheiser said:
That was what I was first advised by a priest about a year ago. (Live as brother and sister so that I may receive the Sacraments). So that’s what I set out to do. I didn’t fully realize it right away but this GREATLY upset my wife. It brought up all sorts of deep-seated, I think anti-Catholic, issues. In fact she’s still bitter about it til this day. She thinks there’s something fundamentally wrong with me submitting to the authority of the Church. And she’s made it clear that the Catholic Church is to have absolutely no say in how she lives her life.
So this made matters worse and I was later counseled to not live as brother and sister but that I myself would take on the burden of being outside the Sacraments. That’s where we’ve been for about a year now. Ironically we’ve practically been living as brother and sister for months now but not because of any principled stance but more because my wife can’t stand me.
I don’t really want to be in an invalid marriage as living as brother and sister for the rest of my life. I want to be a husband and a father. I want more kids. (we have a baby girl)
Right now, I struggle to see an outcome to this that I will be at peace with.
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Wow. Talk about a rock and a hard place :console: I’m really sorry to hear about your situation. I am adding you to my prayer intentions :gopray:

I really have no advice for your particular situation but I may have some things to say about the topic you originally posted: what to do with humiliation, suffering, and pain. I mean yes there has been very good posts here on how to know if you are humble enough or if you bear humiliation like a saint. But after those, what? How do you respond to such? I mean it does seem that the main consensus is just to know whether if you are humble or patient enough and go on with your lives.

But if you read the New Testament and the lives of the saints they go beyond that: they rejoice in them. Jesus did say: “Blessed (i.e. Happy) are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account” (Matthew 5:10-11). Saints have been joyful in suffering since the beginning of the church: “Then they left the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were counted worthy to suffer dishonor for the name” (Acts 5:41). And the thing is, that is not just for the suffering of humiliation, but for all kinds of suffering. St. Francis de Sales said: “All the science of the Saints is included in these two things: To do, and to suffer. And whoever had done these two things best, has made himself most saintly.”

I think St. Josemaria Escriva most controversially, yet most clearly, expressed this in The Way no. 208: “Blessed be pain. Loved be pain. Sanctified be pain. Glorified be pain.”

How can this be so? There is of course the glorious Catholic doctrine of redemptive suffering, where we can offer up our sufferings to be united with Christ’s to help in saving others. Then there is Henri Nouwen’s meditation on participating in mankind’s suffering. But these I found can be lacking. They teach us “to suffer” as St. Francis de Sales puts it, but not much about “to do”.

I think the secret lies in looking at what suffering is. Suffering is an awareness that something is wrong. Therefore, suffering always has an evil component, and thus this is why it is always good to try to alleviate one’s suffering. On the other hand, it is always wrong to primarily inflict pain on anybody, including oneself.

But remember what I just said: suffering is an awareness that something is wrong. Therefore, suffering also has good in it: since you are suffering, you know that there is something wrong. Suffering always carries some truth with it.

In other words, Jesus, the Truth (John 14:6), the Logos (John 1:1), is always there when you suffer. Every storm has Jesus walking on the stormy sea, and you only need to look at Him so that you do not sink (Matthew 14:22–34). I find that if I do this I find much joy in confronting suffering, and also solves the “to do” part of St. Francis’ equation.

So how should one look for Jesus in suffering? I can only say how I do it, and you may find your own way of doing it. When I become aware of any suffering, I greet Jesus in my heart, “Hello my Lord!” and receive Him gratefully. I then try to see what He brings for me, the truth on why I suffer, and since suffering always has a reason, I am confident I will find it.

When I find the source of the suffering, I then remember that Jesus is not just the Truth, but the Way and the Life, and also my Lord! I respect my Lord Jesus by respecting the truth He brings, treating it as truth and not as what my prejudices and wishful thinking want to see it. Then I try to find the best solution for the suffering (the way) that, even if it does not solve the problem, gives the most respect and joy for the truth, for my Lord, myself, and others (the life).

Therefore it is not right to just suffer through a headache without doing anything: you must know why you are having it. If the cause is not serious you can just leave it be, or you may take a rest or take an mild pain reliever. If you are not sure about the cause or if the pain is severe you go to the doctor.

Here is an article that illustrates my point: catholiceducation.org/en/marriage-and-family/parenting/the-eucharist-and-peace.html

I hope, kaisersenheiser, that what I wrote can help you.
 
It seems odd to me that in order to receive a radical sanation your wife must believe what the Church teaches about marriage. You may want to raise this concern in the Liturgy and Sacraments forum. I’m not saying your priest is wrong, but he could be. You may want to contact your archdiocese about this issue to be certain. As I understand it, canon law does not apply to non-Catholics. That’s why I’m puzzled. Again, great topic for the L&S forum.

According to Rev. Mark J. Gantley, JCL (EWTN) on 4/4/2006:

If a Catholic is married outside the Catholic Church, then the marriage must be convalidated. This is true whether the marriage involved a Catholic and a non-Catholic or two Catholics.

The marriage can be convalidated either through a simple convalidation, which requires a new (although usually simple) ceremony with a new exchange of consent. Or the marriage can be convalidated by a radical sanation. A radical sanation is a decree issued by the diocesan bishop stating that he accepts the original consent of the marriage as valid. A radical sanation is usually sought when one party to the marriage does not want to participate in a new ceremony for some reason (e.g., because of belief in conscience).

In any case, there is no requirement for a non-Catholic to become Catholic just to get married in the Church or have one’s marriage convalidated in the Church by either method.
 
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